The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.
Jul 12, 2021 at 12:34 PM Post #1,651 of 88,290
Consider the following excerpt from this article:

"As a tuner for Chi-Fi earphone manufacturers, I often encounter difficulties and frustrations trying to convince their management and engineers to accept a certain tone or sound characteristics. They are judging my tuning based on their own experiences of how “good sound” should be represented. They cannot understand why “blurry and unclear” (in their own vocabulary – “模糊不清”) sound would appeal to the westerners. For earphones that are both sold domestically and exported, I have to tune for both the Mainland and western consumers. Therefore it isn’t easy striking a balance between the two audiences."

This was written by a guy in Singapore who tunes earphones for Asian companies for a living and it tacitly acknowledges two things, namely 1) that there are two broad categories of tuning that can broadly be referred to as "Eastern" or "Western" and 2) that what constitutes "Western" tuning can often sound "blurry and unclear" to someone with more Eastern preferences. My point is that this distinction hardly started with me-- but reading the above it clearly resonated with me as I am someone who has had many of my favorite IEMs dismissed as "bloated" and "muddy" (ie., "blurry and unclear") to my perplexed ears by people who seem to have a preference for what could be called "Eastern" tuning. This is really the crux of the matter to me-- I am trying to find a way to account for what appears to be a vast disparity in how some things are perceived without resorting to simply criticizing or dismissing someone's perceptions-- that's all.

I really have no stake in trying to associate one type of tuning or another with any particular geographical region or nationality so perhaps "Eastern" and "Western" was an unfortunate way to name the distinction-- I was simply trying to move away from the term "Chi Fi tuning". Perhaps naively, I assumed the phrase "Eastern tuning" was a less derogatory term. In any case let's move beyond that and define two broad categories of tuning-- let's call them Martha and Fred. Martha tuning has more of an emphasis on mid-bass and lower mids and Fred tuning has more of an emphasis on sub-bass and upper mids. It just so happens that Fred tuning happens to work really well with various genres of Asian pop however there can conceivably be many reasons for preferring one type of tuning over another based simply on someone's individual sensitivities and preferences and/or music choices. It also just so happens that people who prefer Martha tuning often find Fried tuning to have too much upper mids and lacking body in the mid bass and people who prefer Fred tuning often find Martha tuning to be bloated/muddy/hazy. Please note that I am only observing that the sort of distinction in tuning preferences I've labeled Martha and Fred above does seem to be valid to me...associating it intrinsically with any particular geographic region or nationality of people is over and above the point I'm really trying to make, which is simply that the distinction seems to exist.



It's actually from a much broader array of observations and readings including the article above and copious amounts of discussion across multiple audio forums.



No-- my only point is that it does seem to be a valid distinction. While I wouldn't be surprised if there was some correlation with various cultural preferences at times I am ultimately not trying to make any absolute claims about who prefers said tuning (or doesn't) relative to what part of the world they're from.



I think people can be differently sensitive to various regions of the FR in the same way they can be differently sensitive to different types of spiciness or flavoring in food. While I'm sure it's possible in both cases to make some degree of generalization based on geography & nationality for the sake of the point I'm trying to make here I'm fine considering it an entirely personal choice in much the same way that whether one is a "dog person" or a "cat person" is an entirely personal choice.



100%
Rock, I've read enough of your posts to know a) you aren't a racist, so I am not even sure how that idea got introduced into the thread and b) you are earnest, fair and knowledgeable in your descriptions of various topics. I never doubt your sincerity.

I think where the idea of Eastern vs. Western turning goes off the rails is when the term is used improperly. The idea of a Western or Eastern preference curve is not an absolute label like the color of a person's skin. It represents a distribution curve of preferences over a broad number of people. Every individual has their own preferences that can be anywhere along the distribution curve of preferences. But in aggregate, their preferences can be characterized with an average and standard deviation from the mean. It's just that if you belong to a population of people, the distribution your preferences best fit on an Eastern or Western Curve. So, if you are a manufacture that wants to nail the preferences for a broad market of people, the Eastern tuning is probably going to appeal to the most number of Eastern people in your target market. Not everyone because any individual may have preferences that differ dramatically from what would be predicted from the mean of a curve. But, it is most likely going to have appeal to the most number of Eastern people.

Here's another example. You can make the statement that men tend to be stronger than women because if you measure the strength of women in an entire population and map them on a distribution curve, the mean strength for men would be higher than for women. But, that in no way means that every man is stronger than every woman. We know that also to be not true. But, the average strength of the entire population of men are on average significantly higher than women. So, we are talking about a distibution curve of strength and any point on the curve represents an individual and that value is a certain number of standard deviations from the mean.
 
Jul 12, 2021 at 12:34 PM Post #1,652 of 88,290
Every product thread, yeah also the ones in which I participate, wind up largely being circle jerks of mutual admiration.

I've gone on the record a few times before with this but that's EXACTLY why I love coming to Head Fi. There is nowhere else in my personal life where I would get anything other than shock and amazement if I disclosed how much my IEMs cost and there is certainly nowhere else I can go to just share the love in this hobby that I love to quite the same extent. Carl Jung said that true loneliness does not arise from having nobody around you, but from having nobody around you with whom to talk of things that are important to you. These HF circle-jerk product threads where I can go and gush about something that has captured my heart at the moment alongside others who feel the same way have, in their own way, and especially in the age of Covid done a great deal to negate some degree of loneliness in all our lives I imagine.
 
Jul 12, 2021 at 12:37 PM Post #1,653 of 88,290
Rock, I've read enough of your posts to know a) you aren't a racist, so I am not even sure how that idea got introduced into the thread and b) you are earnest, fair and knowledgeable in your descriptions of various topics. I never doubt your sincerity.

I think where the idea of Eastern vs. Western turning goes off the rails is when the term is used improperly. The idea of a Western or Eastern preference curve is not an absolute label like the color of a person's skin. It represents a distribution curve of preferences over a broad number of people. Every individual has their own preferences that can be anywhere along the distribution curve of preferences. But in aggregate, their preferences can be characterized with an average and standard deviation from the mean. It's just that if you belong to a population of people, the distribution your preferences best fit on an Eastern or Western Curve. So, if you are a manufacture that wants to nail the preferences for a broad market of people, the Eastern tuning is probably going to appeal to the most number of Eastern people in your target market. Not everyone because any individual may have preferences that differ dramatically from what would be predicted from the mean of a curve. But, it is most likely going to have appeal to the most number of Eastern people.

Here's another example. You can make the statement that men tend to be stronger than women because if you measure the strength of women in an entire population and map them on a distribution curve, the mean strength for men would be higher than for women. But, that in no way means that every man is stronger than every woman. We know that also to be not true. But, the average strength of the entire population of men are on average significantly higher than women. So, we are talking about a distibution curve of strength and any point on the curve represents an individual and that value is a certain number of standard deviations from the mean.

Thank-you for your kind words and a hearty well-said to everything else.
 
Jul 12, 2021 at 12:40 PM Post #1,654 of 88,290
I am intentionally highlighting only this one part of the whole statement...

Have you even MET head-fi? Or any hobbyist community? <-----this is asked tongue-in-cheek, so please don't take offense.

I mean, this forum is all about over-indentifying with objects we buy. Every product thread, yeah also the ones in which I participate, wind up largely being circle jerks of mutual admiration. TBC, I'm not saying this in an angry, accusatory way. **It's the very nature of hobbies, and the advent of specialized online communities highlights this even more.** It's nigh impossible to fully engage in any hobby without participating/perpetuating this, especially online IMO. It contributed greatly to why I more or less left the hobby (at least the online community aspects of it) for 5+ years until coming back about a year ago.

Mutual admiration... ha! Good one.

It would be a different kind of hobby if we were in constant argument. Throwing derogatory comments at each other. Roasting other people's gear.

I think I would hesitate to roast anything. The audiophile circle is a small one. I would think that most people are content with stock earphones that came with their purchase of a smartphone. Even a pair of wireless buds would be considered a special treat. It's nice to still have people care about wired earphones and DAPs. Everyone who is still in the circle loves music and loves audio gear.

Tbh I would love to meet headfiers in my city and listen to each other's collection of gear and music library. It would be a refreshing take.
 
Jul 12, 2021 at 12:41 PM Post #1,655 of 88,290
I am intentionally highlighting only this one part of the whole statement...

Have you even MET head-fi? Or any hobbyist community? <-----this is asked tongue-in-cheek, so please don't take offense.

I mean, this forum is all about over-indentifying with objects we buy. Every product thread, yeah also the ones in which I participate, wind up largely being circle jerks of mutual admiration. TBC, I'm not saying this in an angry, accusatory way. **It's the very nature of hobbies, and the advent of specialized online communities highlights this even more.** It's nigh impossible to fully engage in any hobby without participating/perpetuating this, especially online IMO. It contributed greatly to why I more or less left the hobby (at least the online community aspects of it) for 5+ years until coming back about a year ago.
It's interesting , when I see people cry of joy when a national team wins a major cup and I say like, why? who cares? lol. But at the same time it’s beautiful to see this kind of passion . I see it as an external event or thing bring out the true essence of what makes us human ,and life allows us to experience something beautiful. I see it that the source of joy is within and and the material world just act as a pointer to realise this. If we rely on things and experiences to be happy, other than we often don’t get it ,the happiness is very superficial and short-lived unfortunately. That’s why I choose to dig a bit deeper.
 
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Jul 12, 2021 at 1:03 PM Post #1,656 of 88,290
Mutual admiration... ha! Good one.

It would be a different kind of hobby if we were in constant argument. Throwing derogatory comments at each other. Roasting other people's gear.

I think I would hesitate to roast anything. The audiophile circle is a small one. I would think that most people are content with stock earphones that came with their purchase of a smartphone. Even a pair of wireless buds would be considered a special treat. It's nice to still have people care about wired earphones and DAPs. Everyone who is still in the circle loves music and loves audio gear.

Tbh I would love to meet headfiers in my city and listen to each other's collection of gear and music library. It would be a refreshing take.
we should have a designated fight club thread that is open to everything. That would be fun.
 
Jul 12, 2021 at 1:12 PM Post #1,657 of 88,290
Jul 12, 2021 at 1:18 PM Post #1,658 of 88,290
Jul 12, 2021 at 1:20 PM Post #1,659 of 88,290
Maybe, I am not on twitter.
Me neither... almost every time I click on a link though it feels like I have stumbled into the animosity cesspool of the internet, and that's saying a lot...
 
Jul 12, 2021 at 1:21 PM Post #1,660 of 88,290
I've gone on the record a few times before with this but that's EXACTLY why I love coming to Head Fi. There is nowhere else in my personal life where I would get anything other than shock and amazement if I disclosed how much my IEMs cost and there is certainly nowhere else I can go to just share the love in this hobby that I love to quite the same extent. Carl Jung said that true loneliness does not arise from having nobody around you, but from having nobody around you with whom to talk of things that are important to you. These HF circle-jerk product threads where I can go and gush about something that has captured my heart at the moment alongside others who feel the same way have, in their own way, and especially in the age of Covid done a great deal to negate some degree of loneliness in all our lives I imagine.
Everyone I know thinks I am crazy. I come here and what I do is nothing compared to what some of you do. I feel like an under achiever amongst this group of esteemed audio nuts.
 
Jul 12, 2021 at 1:59 PM Post #1,661 of 88,290
On a different note I was talking to @SBranson the other day about the Traillii and its jaw dropping cost. I saw a Blue Hawaii headphone amp recently sell for a fraction of the cost of the Bird and it seemed crazy to me that such a comparatively small thing could sell for more than this massive and heavy piece of equipment. From that vantage point the cost of each seems vastly disproportionate. On the other hand when reflecting on what is to me the peerless tuning of Oriolus products, in particular the Traillii the "Old Man" emerges as something of a "master craftsman" and the Traillii a master work of art. The packaging, oft criticized as too spartan, is perhaps deliberately so simply to convey the notion that it is the tuning ultimately that is the product, and not flashy designs or packaging. I am not aware of any field of artistic endeavour where one can attain a piece of master craftsmanship on a world scale for less than a few thousand dollars. From that perspective, then, the Bird's cost seems perhaps eminently justifiable.
 
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Jul 12, 2021 at 2:00 PM Post #1,662 of 88,290
Everyone I know thinks I am crazy. I come here and what I do is nothing compared to what some of you do. I feel like an under achiever amongst this group of esteemed audio nuts.

Lol I just explained to a non-audio friend of mine how I drove for ~8 hours on Saturday just to see and hear an $8K (CAD) IEM. Suffice to say there was a little bit of stunned incredulity.
 
Jul 12, 2021 at 2:03 PM Post #1,663 of 88,290
On a different note I was talking to @SBranson the other day about the Traillii and its jaw dropping cost. I saw a Blue Hawaii headphone amp recently sell for a fraction of the cost of the Bird and it seemed crazy to me that such a comparatively small thing could sell for more than this massive and heavy piece of equipment. From that vantage point the cost of each seems vastly disproportionate. On the other hand when reflecting on what is to me the peerless tuning of Oriolus products, in particular the Traillii the "Old Man" emerges as something of a "master craftsman" and the Traillii a master work of art. The packaging, oft criticized as too spartan, is perhaps deliberately so simply to convey the notion that it us the tuning, ultimately that is the product, and not flashy designs or packaging. I am not aware of any field of artistic endeavour where on can attain a piece of master craftsmanship on a world scale for less than a few thousand dollars. From that perspective, then, the Bird's cost seems perhaps eminently justifiable.
I think the modest packaging is most probably deliberate . He is making a statement.
I'm really tempted to go for the little bird if I’m honest. Isa to be clear.
 
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Jul 12, 2021 at 2:05 PM Post #1,664 of 88,290
Lol I just explained to a non-audio friend of mine how I drove for ~8 hours on Saturday just to see and hear an $8K (CAD) IEM. Suffice to say there was a little bit of stunned incredulity.
The life of a hobbyist, LOL.

A couple weeks ago, I visited a great-aunt for the first time since holidays of 2019. The squabbling I witnessed among a group of 70-somethings over what "proper' scrapbooking stuff to buy was amazing.
 
Jul 12, 2021 at 3:22 PM Post #1,665 of 88,290
On a different note I was talking to @SBranson the other day about the Traillii and its jaw dropping cost. I saw a Blue Hawaii headphone amp recently sell for a fraction of the cost of the Bird and it seemed crazy to me that such a comparatively small thing could sell for more than this massive and heavy piece of equipment. From that vantage point the cost of each seems vastly disproportionate. On the other hand when reflecting on what is to me the peerless tuning of Oriolus products, in particular the Traillii the "Old Man" emerges as something of a "master craftsman" and the Traillii a master work of art. The packaging, oft criticized as too spartan, is perhaps deliberately so simply to convey the notion that it is the tuning ultimately that is the product, and not flashy designs or packaging. I am not aware of any field of artistic endeavour where one can attain a piece of master craftsmanship on a world scale for less than a few thousand dollars. From that perspective, then, the Bird's cost seems perhaps eminently justifiable.

There was an idea that the parts themselves cost comparatively so little so what could justify the sum cost…. That’s like looking at a painting and itemizing the cost of the canvas and paints. It’s like this story:

“A giant engine in a factory failed. The factory owners had spoken to several ‘experts’ but none of them could show the owners how they could solve the problem.
Eventually the owners brought in an old man who had been fixing engines for many years. After inspecting the huge engine for a minute or two, the old man pulled a hammer out of his tool bag and gently tapped on the engine.
Immediately the engine sprung back into life.
A week later the owners of the business received an invoice from the old man for £10,000. Flabbergasted, they wrote to the old man asking him to send through an itemised bill. The man replied with a bill that said:
Tapping with a hammer: £2.00
Knowing where to tap: £9,998.00”

Or even more simply, the car analogy. My beat up Honda will get me a to b as well as a luxury car but I’m sure the experience is more enjoyable in the luxury car…. unless of course I derive enjoyment from the fact that my Honda does get me there just fine…

In the end, if the Traillii is indeed one of, if not the best sounding iem, then the cost isn’t the issue, it’s my ability to afford it.
 

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