[AudioDuck]

Don’t mean to derail the JDS/ZMF Collab conversation as I’m curious about it myself.

I just purchased my first tube amp with the Feliks Echo MKII. Wondering if anyone has any recommendations for tube rolling. I’ve never heard any tube amps before so I’m dipping my toes a bit.

PM

 

[mchuckp]

I can echo this. I avoided tubes for a while as I didn’t expect the tangible benefit to be as drastic in all cases and wanted to stay away from the more fiddly aspects of tube exploration. I recently picked up a TC amp and some NOS tubes to play with and have very much enjoyed the experience so far.

As for the Atrium specifically, my setup (Cayin HA-6A) definitely “blossoms” the Atriums in some really interesting ways based on Triode vs UL mode and impedance setting, plus the stock tubes vs the upgrade tubes I got. I can fatten up the bottom end and take a step into the stage or I can flip a couple switches and get it super close to SS sounding. This really depends album to album, track to track which settings I prefer. Sometimes the tube chain takes a song from amazing to pure magic and sometimes it can be too much.

TL/DR - I’m really glad I have the options and flexibility my tube setup provides. But I could also be perfectly satisfied with my SS setup with the Atrium.

Thanks to everyone who chimed in with thoughts about if the Atriums are best with tubes or not. I'm still waiting on my Atriums to ship but in the meantime I got a good deal on a used Feliks Elise mkii. Saw/read a few reviews where they liked that amp with HFM planars so thought it would be a good choice to try. One tried like 10 different headphones with low impedance and some faired well and some didn't. I've been using it the last few days with my HE1000v2 and really enjoying it. Gave it some oomph that I was really craving and the timbre is to die for. Certainly reminds me of the tube amp set up for my speakers I used to have and missed. I enjoy the hyper clarity and quickness of the HE1000 on certain music but man, it can be brutally honest on lesser recordings and makes me pick something else. On the Elise, it is making a lot of that music enjoyable with the fat low end, juicy mids, and rolled off treble.

Now as I wait for my Atriums to try on tubes and SS, I have a new sound to enjoy until then. I'm curious what I will think of the Atriums as in will I prefer tubes, SS, or both. Since I've heard the Atriums described as being on the warm side and "analog", curious if I'd find the Elise adds too much warmth or will be what I crave. If I REALLY like the Atriums on tubes, I may have to consider selling one of my Bursons (3xp & GT) for a 2nd tube amp. I maintain two listening spots in my house.

 

[jclyle]

My review of the Cayin IHA 6. Excellent synergy with the upcoming ZMF Caldera

Have you had any issues with your IHA-6? I'm on the fence about getting one, but have seen some negative reviews regarding noise, and units failing after a few months of use.

 

[Monsterzero]

Have you had any issues with your IHA-6? I'm on the fence about getting one, but have seen some negative reviews regarding noise, and units failing after a few months of use.

Mine is a loaner unit that has made multiple trips across the country, been tossed around by delivery people, yet it still works like a charm.

 

[Unterstuffz]

I know this kind of question is not much liked but...
My plan ist to get an OTL Tube Amp for my VC (up to 2000 Euro) but i am not very interessted in tube rolling... are there options that are good with the stock tubes ?
I really like the Feliks Audio offerings designwise but cant test them or any other amp in terms of sound (Germany yay !...).

 

[cats4cans]

I know this kind of question is not much liked but...
My plan ist to get an OTL Tube Amp for my VC (up to 2000 Euro) but i am not very interessted in tube rolling... are there options that are good with the stock tubes ?
I really like the Feliks Audio offerings designwise but cant test them or any other amp in terms of sound (Germany yay !...).

No one makes you tube roll. But you might take into consideration that since the vast majority of people do, they just might be on to something. Think of it like the difference between off the rack, altered for better fit, and fully bespoke tailored. Don’t let the completely over zealous tube rolling obsessives scare you. The truth is tubes wear out, so you’ll have to do some rolling eventually.

 

[Unterstuffz]

No one makes you tube roll. But you might take into consideration that since the vast majority of people do, they just might be on to something. Think of it like the difference between off the rack, altered for better fit, and fully bespoke tailored. Don’t let the completely over zealous tube rolling obsessives scare you. The truth is tubes wear out, so you’ll have to do some rolling eventually.

I know i am not forced to tube roll (besides from replacing the tubes at some point) but i am just very intimidated and confused by all the options and Pricerange i found amps i thought i liked and then there are past that states you have to replace the power tubes with elrog 300b to sound the best and that is unfortunatly not the kind of money i want or can spend. I know there is a reason so many poeple are into tube rolling but it is not for me.

 

[cats4cans]

I know i am not forced to tube roll (besides from replacing the tubes at some point) but i am just very intimidated and confused by all the options and Pricerange i found amps i thought i liked and then there are past that states you have to replace the power tubes with elrog 300b to sound the best and that is unfortunatly not the kind of money i want or can spend. I know there is a reason so many poeple are into tube rolling but it is not for me.

It’s diminishing returns just like everything else. Just stick to your budget and ignore the unobtanium tubes that can cost as much as the amp. I have bought a few items where the stock tubes were the worst I tried, but comparable replacements from different manufacturers suited my tastes well enough without going to extremes. Always try the stock tubes first. But by same token don’t give up on a component just because the stock tubes don’t suit you.

You probably don’t want to learn too much about op amp rolling either. Then your SS options might not be safe.

 

[Mattyjm]

I know this kind of question is not much liked but...
My plan ist to get an OTL Tube Amp for my VC (up to 2000 Euro) but i am not very interessted in tube rolling... are there options that are good with the stock tubes ?
I really like the Feliks Audio offerings designwise but cant test them or any other amp in terms of sound (Germany yay !...).

if you can find a used Feliks Elise/Euforia (demo both and see which you prefer) for cheap you could get that. Stock tubes aren't great but they do the job. With tube rolling they will become a different beast.

There's also the option of Cayin Ha-3a, but that has even more tubes (that needed to be changed out)

 

[ColSaulTigh]

I know this kind of question is not much liked but...
My plan ist to get an OTL Tube Amp for my VC (up to 2000 Euro) but i am not very interessted in tube rolling... are there options that are good with the stock tubes ?
I really like the Feliks Audio offerings designwise but cant test them or any other amp in terms of sound (Germany yay !...).

Buy something from the classifieds that already has upgraded tubes.

 

[Marutks]

My plan ist to get an OTL Tube Amp for my VC (up to 2000 Euro) but i am not very interessted in tube rolling... are there options that are good with the stock tubes ?

I think Feliks Echo is good with stock tubes. I use the same type of tubes (6N6P) in my amplifier.

 

[goldwerger]

I know this kind of question is not much liked but...
My plan ist to get an OTL Tube Amp for my VC (up to 2000 Euro) but i am not very interessted in tube rolling... are there options that are good with the stock tubes ?
I really like the Feliks Audio offerings designwise but cant test them or any other amp in terms of sound (Germany yay !...).

Don’t worry about your tube rolling to start. Just buy the amp that you like and use it for a few months with the stock tubes. You then have also a good reference point. You can always find new tubes later (and probably it will be much easier than you think). But it’s not a must to start with.

At CanJam NYC 2 weeks ago I heard the new Feliks Euforia EVO which blew my mind with the Atrium Closed. The synergy was wonderful. There are a bunch of the older Euphoria models on the classified every now and then. I would really recommend those. Some may even have extra tubes included as a bonus.

 

[Monsterzero]

then there are past that states you have to replace the power tubes with elrog 300b to sound the best and that is unfortunatly not the kind of money i want or can spend. I know there is a reason so many poeple are into tube rolling but it is not for me.

I avoid 300b amps for the same reason, the cost of top tier 300b tubes is simply prohibitive for me.

The truth is, is that most amps stock tubes are modern made garbage. Not only can NOS tubes offer better sound, but they can also offer better synergy within ones system, and synergy is 95% of the battle in this hobby IMO.
For example, I currently have the ZMF Atrium closed for review purposes. The other day I rolled in a pair of 1930s Zenith 6C5GTs and a pair of GEC 6AS7G. The Zeniths set me back about 100 bucks and the GECs close to $500.00. Not a cheap tube roll, yet that combo of tubes proved to be not a winning hand with the AC, but its a killer roll for the Sennheiser HD250. Instead, a pair of Tung Sol 6J5s and a pair of Western Electric 421a sounds fantastic on the AC Again, not a cheap roll. Its all about synergy.

My advice is to look into amps that only take a few tubes, like the BHC, which I believe takes only 2 or 3 tubes, vs. my departed GOTL that has ten sockets. Less sockets=less tubes=less $.

I realize that besides the cost of good tubes, the actual act of rolling tubes can be intimidating to someone who has never done it before, but it really isnt that difficult. Grab the tube by the base and start rocking back and forth gently until the tube begins to lift out of the socket, at which point you begin rolling the tube in a circular pattern ( hence the term, tube rolling) until the tube releases from the socket completely.

This may sound harsh, but if one has a tube amp and doesnt roll tubes then one might as well just stick to a solid state amp.

 

[L0rdGwyn]

I know i am not forced to tube roll (besides from replacing the tubes at some point) but i am just very intimidated and confused by all the options and Pricerange i found amps i thought i liked and then there are past that states you have to replace the power tubes with elrog 300b to sound the best and that is unfortunatly not the kind of money i want or can spend. I know there is a reason so many poeple are into tube rolling but it is not for me.

I would say you can save yourself some money by simply going straight to the top and factoring what are generally considered the "best" tubes into the cost of the amp, rather than crawling your way to the top and spending a bunch of money along the way. Another approach would be to buy an amp that really just doesn't have many tube rolling options. There are some amps (like the Bottlehead Mainline) that take very specific tubes without many replacements. Then tube rolling isn't an option

If you want to dip your toes into the OTL world without going crazy in terms of spending, you could get a Bottlehead Crack, a Tung-Sol 5998, and a quality 12AU7 for less than $1000 USD.

Tubes are a PITA, it's a labor of love.

 

[L0rdGwyn]

I am back to OTLing with Atrium and Caldera this afternoon. When this amp is out of rotation, I'm mad at it since it's so big and clunky to store. Then I listen again, and I am smitten.



It kinda scares me to be honest though lol output tubes are biased at 275mA, look at those cathodes!! They are huge. These tubes get super hot.



I was having a convo with Paul Birkeland on some forum (can't remember which one) about OTL designs some time after I built this. He said something along the lines of, "well, instead of a single 6AS7G, you could use the higher transconductance 6336 / 6528, they only bias at something like 200mA, what could go wrong?". I was like yeah well, I did that...with a pair of them...what could go wrong indeed. So far so good lol.