[Jbmorrey]

thanks, I have a home stereo system, a Harmon Kardon 5.1 modern receiver that I will hook them up to.

James

 

[Earspeakers]

FYI cross post, I'm looking at doing a KGST PCB group buy, if interested post here
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/753825/kgst-pcb-group-buy-interest-check

 

[icebear]

You don't wanna get yourself in trouble do you

?
 
http://www.head-fi.org/a/group-buys

 

[Earspeakers]

  You don't wanna get yourself in trouble do you

?
 
http://www.head-fi.org/a/group-buys

Apparently not ...
 
On a different topic I wear eyeglasses and the most comfortable headphone pads I've used are the Beyerdynamic style. Soft, plush pads that softly mold over the eyeglass stems and are comfortable for long periods of time. Has anybody tried a variation like this with Stax, is it possible? Any thoughts on how it might (if it does) alter the sound?

 

[Advert]

Hi guys.

How are you guys saving you stax?

I live in Indonesia, country with high humidity
I always save my 007mk2 into the original box (carrying case) and put few silica gel inside

Is it safe enough?



Thank you

 

[zolkis]

I have joined the club of SR-009 + SR-007 Mk1 owners.
 
Guess what, I tried to improve the 009...
You may remember that I use custom pads with the 007 Mk1's, using a 009 ear pad and some custom stuffing.
The standard 009 and 007 earpad stuffing is made of normal foam, plus a 3 mm thick base, from a denser, rubbery foam.
I have figured out 2 optimum configurations for the 007:
 
Pad1. full carbon foam pads, 105/73 mm diameters, about 15mm high in the back and about 10 mm high in the front
Origin: 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007NYQDMK/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AV0WDM2FFQCUE
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005AK9FQ0/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AV0WDM2FFQCUE
 
Pad2. wool felt ring replacing the 3mm thick base foam ring. That means I have separated the base from the foam part with the help of a sharp cutter and a lot of care. I have tried many kinds of felt, and this one sounded the best:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/127274609/3mm-100-merino-wool-felt-7-x-11-20x30cm?ref=shop_home_active_1
(note the colour, other colours sounded more muffled, this was quite clear).
 
Since I anyway had the modded 009 ear pads, I tried Pad1 on the 009. Not much change, I actually I preferred the original ones.
Then I tried Pad2, and behold, the 009 has transformed:
- much deeper bass with great clarity and slam
- larger and better sound stage
- no noticeable treble "haze", highs sounded very clear this time.
If you thought the 009 is lacking some bass, now it has it in spades, with excellent control and resolution.
I also have a Fostex TH900 - which I very successfully modded to sound way much better than the stock one - and actually the modded 009 gets quite close to the slam, without the slight overhang. Not bad from a 'stat, huh?
 
I figured out the 007 and 009 pad optima are different. It was the turn for the 007. I ended up with:
Pad3. 3mm wool felt ring base and a carbon foam pad 3 mm thinner  than in Pad1.
 
That worked like a charm. Now the 007 sounded very close to the 009, embarrassingly close, with the following differences:
- more bass slam, about the same extension, but the 009 has a bit better mid-bass and better bass control; however, with instruments, the 007 sounded better in the bass
- more euphonic midrange, some people would prefer it over the 009, some would not
- slightly better defined treble, with cymbals having more attack and decay, the 009 was somehow flatter, but feels more airy and extended
- sound stage is deeper, a tiny bit wider, but less high; also, a tiny bit less focused; however, quite minor difference. Depending on different music I preferred the sound stage of one or the other, but more times the 007.
 
My personal subjective ranking is the following:
stock 007 Mk1 << stock 009 <= 007 + Pad1 << 009 + Pad2 <= 007 + Pad3. 
Details:
- the stock 007 Mk1 sounds rather dark (but not Audeze-dark) compared to the rest, and there is a rather big quality difference to the stock 009
- the stock 009 sounded more open, but sometimes a bit artificial in comparison; there was some musicality in the 007 sound that went dry with the 009;
- the 007 with Pad1 (the carbon foam pad) was a bit more musical/euphonic than the 009, and sounded more natural with string instruments and percussion, but wind instruments were somewhat more preferable with the 009
(a big jump here)
- the modified 009 with Pad2 was so much better then the stock 009 (I played them many times back and forth), there is no way back
- the modified 007 with Pad3 again sounded a bit more musical, in the way described above, but this is matter of taste. I am sure many people would prefer the 009 + Pad2, which is also easier to drive, and about 3 dB's (a lot) louder, which makes comparisons very difficult. I tried to tell if the modded 009 is also more resolving (in bass, mids and highs), but I concluded they are pretty much similar in resolution. Perhaps I could give the nod to the 009, but mainly out of politeness. Because the more perceived "air", many people would prefer the modded 009.
 
Just for fun, I tried using a parametric equalizer to see if I could "simulate" the sound of one with the other.
The 009+Pad2 sounded like the 007+Pad3 if I bumped +3 dB at 30 Hz, and notched down -3dB at 16 kHz.
The 007 needed a small bump of 2 dB at 8 kHz and 3-4 dB at 16 kHz to sound like the modded 009, but with better bass slam and more velvety mids.
 
An important note here.
The sound quality of the 007 is so much dependent on the shape and fitting of the head band, that it's nearly impossible to get consistent results from people to people. What works for me, doesn't necessarily work for others: it depends on head shape, ear shape etc. The sound described here was obtained with 007 head bands adjusted wide/flat and turning in like the 009 headband does. Moreover, I didn't use the circular spring for the 009 earpad mounted on the 007. 
Removing and assembling the 009 pads on the 007 takes only seconds. By rotating the pads on the 007, the sound changes. I use the front part turned upwards a bit (about 10 degrees), this provides the most open sound and best sound stage.
The best ear pads for the 007 are a bit more shallow than the stock pads, so it won't fit everyone.
There are none of these problems with the 009, they are consistent sounding and more comfortable. 
 
Note #2. If you have never taken off a 009 ear pad, don't try it yourself unless you know what you are doing. I will post pictures later, but it goes like this: 
1. remove the inner dust grill through the ear pad opening (by gently bending inwards and pulling out)
2. by pushing the ear cushions aside with a precision Phillips screwdriver, gently open 4 turns on each of the 6 screws, going round and in diagonal like with car wheel change
3. pull the internal metal ring outwards a bit, and gently take off the pad.
Assembly is in reverse order. 
 
Note #3. All of these pads sound quite flat with a frequency sweep, but I cannot do proper measurements. To my ears it's very clear which sound better, but I oubt the waterfall would measure fundamentally different.
 
Since the modded 009 are still more neutral, more comfortable, and easier to adjust, they are likely the better choice to keep.
Also, the 009 mod is very straightforward, and will give consistent results, whereas the 007 can be set in so many ways that it's easy to get it suboptimal.
However, it is absolutely worth doing it.
The mod steps:
1. Order a replacement 009 ear pad from Stax e.g. through your local Stax dealer. That costs 140 euros, quite steep.
2. Meanwhile order the wool felt, it's cheap. The colour matters . 
3. Take the stuffing out of the replacement 009 ear pads. Then, cutting off the foam base is quite easy. Start from outside, with a small, precise cut, gently pull apart, get deeper, then through the whole width, then advance slowly around the perimeter. 
4. Cut 2 felt rings of 105 mm external, and 73 mm internal diameter, using an Olfa circular cutter or similar. This is a size optimum for both the 007 and 009 for the given felt type. I have tried a lot of other sizes, including the elliptical original form.
5. Put the foam ring from step 3 and the felt rings from step 4 together, and assemble into the ear pads. Take care of orientation of the thinner part to the front. The felt ring comes to bottom and the foam is closer to the ear.
6. Mount the ear pads, or if you just want to test, it is enough to hold it on the headphones without mounting them (sounds the same and saves from a lot of hassle, especially with the 009).
 
For the 007, in step2 order also the carbon foam, and in step3 cut a similar size ring: 105/73, then trim it by a slant plane thinning towards front, about 10 mm high in the back and 7 mm in the front. It has to be thin enough, otherwise will sound more muffled and dark.
As a last step, for the 007 only: adjust the head band and ear pad orientation.
 
My wife solved the issue by liking the modded 007 more, perhaps sound-wise too, but mainly because of the price .
I have preferred the modded 007 almost every time, but that's telling about my taste, not necessarily the sound quality. Also, it is a very personal headphone, adjusted to my own head...
Since I am primarily a speaker guy, I will be content with the modded 007 Mk1 (and modded TH900), hopefully for a long time.
I have a prospective local buyer for the 009 with either stock or modded ear pads, but if it doesn't go through, one of you may get world's allegedly best 009 soon .
I will repeat the whole experiment with an incoming BHSE, in a couple of weeks.
 
I am thinking about making a separate thread about modding ear pads for different headphones, so far the 007, 009, TH900. They make a lot of difference. Now I wonder what could I make of an LCD-3, since they seem to have the darkest and worst sounding ear pads, but that's another story... The best stock pads I've seen on a headphone are with the HD800 and to somewhat lesser extent the K812. I wouldn't even try improving those.  Anyway the modded Stax sound way much better (IMHO and YMMV .

 

[NoPants]

I inserted foam between the cloth mesh cover and the leather pads of the 009, seems to help with some of its shortcomings.

 

[edstrelow]

  I have joined the club of SR-009 + SR-007 Mk1 owners.
 
Guess what, I tried to improve the 009...
You may remember that I use custom pads with the 007 Mk1's, using a 009 ear pad and some custom stuffing.
The standard 009 and 007 earpad stuffing is made of normal foam, plus a 3 mm thick base, from a denser, rubbery foam.
I have figured out 2 optimum configurations for the 007:
 
Pad1. full carbon foam pads, 105/73 mm diameters, about 15mm high in the back and about 10 mm high in the front
Origin: 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007NYQDMK/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AV0WDM2FFQCUE
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005AK9FQ0/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AV0WDM2FFQCUE
 
Pad2. wool felt ring replacing the 3mm thick base foam ring. That means I have separated the base from the foam part with the help of a sharp cutter and a lot of care. I have tried many kinds of felt, and this one sounded the best:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/127274609/3mm-100-merino-wool-felt-7-x-11-20x30cm?ref=shop_home_active_1
(note the colour, other colours sounded more muffled, this was quite clear).
 
Since I anyway had the modded 009 ear pads, I tried Pad1 on the 009. Not much change, I actually I preferred the original ones.
Then I tried Pad2, and behold, the 009 has transformed:
- much deeper bass with great clarity and slam
- larger and better sound stage
- no noticeable treble "haze", highs sounded very clear this time.
If you thought the 009 is lacking some bass, now it has it in spades, with excellent control and resolution.
I also have a Fostex TH900 - which I very successfully modded to sound way much better than the stock one - and actually the modded 009 gets quite close to the slam, without the slight overhang. Not bad from a 'stat, huh?
 
I figured out the 007 and 009 pad optima are different. It was the turn for the 007. I ended up with:
Pad3. 3mm wool felt ring base and a carbon foam pad 3 mm thinner  than in Pad1.
 
That worked like a charm. Now the 007 sounded very close to the 009, embarrassingly close, with the following differences:
- more bass slam, about the same extension, but the 009 has a bit better mid-bass and better bass control; however, with instruments, the 007 sounded better in the bass
- more euphonic midrange, some people would prefer it over the 009, some would not
- slightly better defined treble, with cymbals having more attack and decay, the 009 was somehow flatter, but feels more airy and extended
- sound stage is deeper, a tiny bit wider, but less high; also, a tiny bit less focused; however, quite minor difference. Depending on different music I preferred the sound stage of one or the other, but more times the 007.
 
My personal subjective ranking is the following:
stock 007 Mk1 << stock 009 <= 007 + Pad1 << 009 + Pad2 <= 007 + Pad3. 
Details:
- the stock 007 Mk1 sounds rather dark (but not Audeze-dark) compared to the rest, and there is a rather big quality difference to the stock 009
- the stock 009 sounded more open, but sometimes a bit artificial in comparison; there was some musicality in the 007 sound that went dry with the 009;
- the 007 with Pad1 (the carbon foam pad) was a bit more musical/euphonic than the 009, and sounded more natural with string instruments and percussion, but wind instruments were somewhat more preferable with the 009
(a big jump here)
- the modified 009 with Pad2 was so much better then the stock 009 (I played them many times back and forth), there is no way back
- the modified 007 with Pad3 again sounded a bit more musical, in the way described above, but this is matter of taste. I am sure many people would prefer the 009 + Pad2, which is also easier to drive, and about 3 dB's (a lot) louder, which makes comparisons very difficult. I tried to tell if the modded 009 is also more resolving (in bass, mids and highs), but I concluded they are pretty much similar in resolution. Perhaps I could give the nod to the 009, but mainly out of politeness. Because the more perceived "air", many people would prefer the modded 009.
 
Just for fun, I tried using a parametric equalizer to see if I could "simulate" the sound of one with the other.
The 009+Pad2 sounded like the 007+Pad3 if I bumped +3 dB at 30 Hz, and notched down -3dB at 16 kHz.
The 007 needed a small bump of 2 dB at 8 kHz and 3-4 dB at 16 kHz to sound like the modded 009, but with better bass slam and more velvety mids.
 
An important note here.
The sound quality of the 007 is so much dependent on the shape and fitting of the head band, that it's nearly impossible to get consistent results from people to people. What works for me, doesn't necessarily work for others: it depends on head shape, ear shape etc. The sound described here was obtained with 007 head bands adjusted wide/flat and turning in like the 009 headband does. Moreover, I didn't use the circular spring for the 009 earpad mounted on the 007. 
Removing and assembling the 009 pads on the 007 takes only seconds. By rotating the pads on the 007, the sound changes. I use the front part turned upwards a bit (about 10 degrees), this provides the most open sound and best sound stage.
The best ear pads for the 007 are a bit more shallow than the stock pads, so it won't fit everyone.
There are none of these problems with the 009, they are consistent sounding and more comfortable. 
 
Note #2. If you have never taken off a 009 ear pad, don't try it yourself unless you know what you are doing. I will post pictures later, but it goes like this: 
1. remove the inner dust grill through the ear pad opening (by gently bending inwards and pulling out)
2. by pushing the ear cushions aside with a precision Phillips screwdriver, gently open 4 turns on each of the 6 screws, going round and in diagonal like with car wheel change
3. pull the internal metal ring outwards a bit, and gently take off the pad.
Assembly is in reverse order. 
 
Note #3. All of these pads sound quite flat with a frequency sweep, but I cannot do proper measurements. To my ears it's very clear which sound better, but I oubt the waterfall would measure fundamentally different.
 
Since the modded 009 are still more neutral, more comfortable, and easier to adjust, they are likely the better choice to keep.
Also, the 009 mod is very straightforward, and will give consistent results, whereas the 007 can be set in so many ways that it's easy to get it suboptimal.
However, it is absolutely worth doing it.
The mod steps:
1. Order a replacement 009 ear pad from Stax e.g. through your local Stax dealer. That costs 140 euros, quite steep.
2. Meanwhile order the wool felt, it's cheap. The colour matters . 
3. Take the stuffing out of the replacement 009 ear pads. Then, cutting off the foam base is quite easy. Start from outside, with a small, precise cut, gently pull apart, get deeper, then through the whole width, then advance slowly around the perimeter. 
4. Cut 2 felt rings of 105 mm external, and 73 mm internal diameter, using an Olfa circular cutter or similar. This is a size optimum for both the 007 and 009 for the given felt type. I have tried a lot of other sizes, including the elliptical original form.
5. Put the foam ring from step 3 and the felt rings from step 4 together, and assemble into the ear pads. Take care of orientation of the thinner part to the front. The felt ring comes to bottom and the foam is closer to the ear.
6. Mount the ear pads, or if you just want to test, it is enough to hold it on the headphones without mounting them (sounds the same and saves from a lot of hassle, especially with the 009).
 
For the 007, in step2 order also the carbon foam, and in step3 cut a similar size ring: 105/73, then trim it by a slant plane thinning towards front, about 10 mm high in the back and 7 mm in the front. It has to be thin enough, otherwise will sound more muffled and dark.
As a last step, for the 007 only: adjust the head band and ear pad orientation.
 
My wife solved the issue by liking the modded 007 more, perhaps sound-wise too, but mainly because of the price .
I have preferred the modded 007 almost every time, but that's telling about my taste, not necessarily the sound quality. Also, it is a very personal headphone, adjusted to my own head...
Since I am primarily a speaker guy, I will be content with the modded 007 Mk1 (and modded TH900), hopefully for a long time.
I have a prospective local buyer for the 009 with either stock or modded ear pads, but if it doesn't go through, one of you may get world's allegedly best 009 soon .
I will repeat the whole experiment with an incoming BHSE, in a couple of weeks.
 
I am thinking about making a separate thread about modding ear pads for different headphones, so far the 007, 009, TH900. They make a lot of difference. Now I wonder what could I make of an LCD-3, since they seem to have the darkest and worst sounding ear pads, but that's another story... The best stock pads I've seen on a headphone are with the HD800 and to somewhat lesser extent the K812. I wouldn't even try improving those.  Anyway the modded Stax sound way much better (IMHO and YMMV .

Some photos of what you were doing would be helpfull. I am heavily into modding Staxen myself, although mostly using  sorbothane damping material. I noted quite some time back that the metal headband arcs on the 007 ring. I recommend damping the arcs one way or another.

 

[astrostar59]

lots of work in this sybject. My opinion is the 009s excel with a great front end, otherwise the jump from the 007s is reduced. IMO the 007s are more forgiving of the source, so see the dilema. I found the 009s beat the 007s in all areas, bo contest.

 

[georgep]

You mean 007mk2.5, just for clarity.

 

[edstrelow]

Those of us who are electrostatic enthusiasts are  used to thinking that the nature of the driver is the only significant determinant of the sound quality of headphones.  And Stax has encouraged this, touting the thinness of new diaphragms, new stator designs and the like.
 
 However I believe that there are other factors, less well understood in headphone design, that may be playing as big a role in sound quality. Based on my observations of how even small amounts of sorbothane on an earcup can create  audible improvements, I think there is a lot of mechanical energy travelling around earcups in many if not all headphones which is not dissipating effectively and is causing coloration. As I have argued before we can't do the sort of things we do with speakers to get rid of these resonances i.e. make the phones rigid, heavy, mount them on spikes and the like. So headphones have an inherent problem in this regard compared to speakers. Of course they have their own advantages too.
 
Headphone designers have relied on the earpads  to dampen the mechanical  energy.   And as Zolkis has found out, you can improve on existing designs,  Actually I think he and I are doing much the same thing,  adding damping materials such as foam, felt and in my case sorbothane.  We are also.adding some mass to the cups. If I recall my physics correctly, you cannot actually destroy energy but you can transform it and the according to the sorbothane website, their product converts it to heat,  
 
Years ago, Koss used liquid filled earpads on their early stats (Esp 6 and Esp 9)   This insured a good seal and I suspect their liquid had better damping properties than foam.  Unfortunately these pads always puffed up after a year or so and Koss gave up on them. 

 

[cucera]

Those of us who are electrostatic enthusiasts are  used to thinking that the nature of the driver is the only significant determinant of the sound quality of headphones.  And Stax has encouraged this, touting the thinness of new diaphragms, new stator designs and the like.

 However I believe that there are other factors, less well understood in headphone design, that may be playing as big a role in sound quality.

I agree 100%. Take for example the 009, its strength is not the Driver, but the stiffer frame and most important the pads.

Spritzer says the same, it is not the driver that makes a headphone superiour. He once transplanted a lowly 303 driver in an Orpheus frame and prefered it to the original uber Headphones.

 

[Earspeakers]

I agree 100%. Take for example the 009, its strength is not the Driver, but the stiffer frame and most important the pads.

Spritzer says the same, it is not the driver that makes a headphone superiour. He once transplanted a lowly 303 driver in an Orpheus frame and prefered it to the original uber Headphones.

Not surprised. Frequently in engineering it becomes difficult to differentiate for a product line with the technologies used. For example, it is very likely more expensive to offer the old films in the drivers of the lower end Stax cans than to have the same across the whole line. In addition to getting cheaper base costs, they might not be able to get the old films, and they might have other undesirable issues such as higher failure rates and such. So they offer essentially the same driver technology across the line and differentiate on fit, finish and end design. Sounds like a typical product line.
 
I'm quite happy with my 307's/323s frankly, so why would I upgrade to a BHSE/009? Why not, it'll be marginally better, but I'm not expecting vast changes. 

 

[arnaud]

Earpad is critical indeed but it's only one part of the equation. I certainly do not believe all the difference between the 007 and 009 is coming from the pad exclusively. The enclosure differs, the drivers size differs, the stators differ, the membrane material differs, the DS gap differs. Most of all, one is miles more resolving (007 treble is a 10kHz peak, 009 is more even there and doesn't rely on one resonance to resolve treble). Sounstage layering is so much more precise on the 009, a pad can't possibly be the only factor for this.

I am not saying pad doesn't matter, far from it. Heck, I even showed the hughe influence of pad design on stat phone tonal balance some time back in the diy thread. i also think zolkis work is fantastic / really worth exploring to fine tune the phone to ones taste.

The distance from the driver to the ear, the orientation, the amount of leakage through the pad, the volume of the earpad cavity, all these parameters have a huge influence on any headphone response, and stat phones in particular as they very much rely on this loading effect (more so than typical massive ortho or dynamic phones driver).
But saying all the 009 innovation lies in the pad is silly.

Arnaud

 

[georgep]

Arnaud, which 007 are you referring to with respect to the treble peak?