[DecentLevi]

OK then I like natural better than neutral (sort of like DT880 vs. FA-003)

 

[393699]

I have always wanted to hear the DT 880. Where I am in BC Canada, no stores here sell, or seem to be able to order them in. I used to own the DT 770 Pro 250 Ohm, and a friend of mine owns the DT 990 Ohm 250 Ohm. I found both headphones to have bloated, slow, and boomy bass, recessed mids, and sibilant highs. I keep hearing that the DT 880 is essentially the pick of the litter of the 3 pairs, with a far more neutral sound signature. I am dying to hear a pair.

 

[Chris J]

From an engineering perspective... (and yet again we get into another one of these discussions)

32 Ohm < 250 Ohm < 600 Ohm

Here's why:

The 32 Ohm with its low impedance would probably be affected by the output impedance of the amplifier far more than the other 2 models, so amps with high output impedance would tend to sound worse. The output impedance of the device only needs to be above 4 Ohm for the effect to be noticeable. That's quite low.

The 250 Ohm with its higher impedance would probably not be affected by output impedance, so it's better in that regard, but...

The 600 Ohm would effectively negate output impedance of most amps, so it'll play nice with just about anything.

Also...

Higher impedance allows the gain of the amplification stage of an amp to be set higher, and depending on the topology, higher gain, higher voltage, lower current voltage(!) is the ideal combination for lower overall distortion and oscillation.

So short answer... if you want the absolute best, 600 Ohm.

The 32 Ohm is actually the worst version... contrary to belief. Unless you get an amp that is properly designed (and most amps at the lower-end side have problems left and right), it's actually harder to pull the most out of the 32 Ohm version than doing the same thing for the 600 Ohm version.

Edit: oops, I meant "lower current" there

It always comes down to the same thing:
What are you driving your 'phones with?
If the answer is an iPod, then you'll most likely be happier with 32 Ohm 'phones.
If the answer is an OTL vacuum tube amp, then the answer is you'll most likely be happier with the 600 Ohm version.

As usual, if possible, try before you buy.
You have to like your headphones and amp, not me or anyone else!

 

[MrEleventy]

Hello Guys, I would be very interested to know how the Senn. HD-598 stacks up to any of the following: Hifiman HE-500, Senn. HD-600 & Beyer. DT-880.
Also if anyone can mention about the HE-500 vs. Audeze LCD2 that would be aswesome too.

I was about to invest a lot into an HE-500 but I've read the HD-600 does the soundstage better for cheaper, & is more neutral. I own a DT-880 and have done an online-listening for the HD-598 and to me it seems more neutral than the HD-600 and more neutral than any of the HD line from Sennheiser... not too much of any frequency. I'm not near any hi-fi store and can't afford the time off work for a head-fi meet yet, so any pointers you can give me would be quite valued. My sound preferences are: neutral & analytical (fairly flat but not as much as the FA-003), somewhat warm sound signature, non-bloated bass,  and very quick & punchy. THANKS!

PS- sorry if I may have posted in the wrong thread but let me know if there's a better thread to post for this.

HD-600 has better soundstage but there's more clarity in the HE-500 and it does bass and subbass better.

Curious but... how did you do an online-listening of the HD598?

 

[soundeffect]

From an engineering perspective... (and yet again we get into another one of these discussions)



32 Ohm < 250 Ohm < 600 Ohm

Here's why:

The 32 Ohm with its low impedance would probably be affected by the output impedance of the amplifier far more than the other 2 models, so amps with high output impedance would tend to sound worse. The output impedance of the device only needs to be above 4 Ohm for the effect to be noticeable. That's quite low.

The 250 Ohm with its higher impedance would probably not be affected by output impedance, so it's better in that regard, but...

The 600 Ohm would effectively negate output impedance of most amps, so it'll play nice with just about anything.

Also...

Higher impedance allows the gain of the amplification stage of an amp to be set higher, and depending on the topology, higher gain, higher voltage, lower current voltage(!) is the ideal combination for lower overall distortion and oscillation.

So short answer... if you want the absolute best, 600 Ohm.

The 32 Ohm is actually the worst version... contrary to belief. Unless you get an amp that is properly designed (and most amps at the lower-end side have problems left and right), it's actually harder to pull the most out of the 32 Ohm version than doing the same thing for the 600 Ohm version.

Edit: oops, I meant "lower current" there

Make sense, I'm not expecting the 32 ohms to perform better than the other two as there is a sacrifice to had with a headphone that is easier to drive without an amp. I'm more curious of how handicap is the 32 ohm is when amping. If it's very minor performance with the amp I currently own then I'm okay with it. I'm just hoping it doesn't sound horrible or barely any improvement. Well I'll find out tonight, but I won't really really know without having the 250/600 ohms nearby. The 250 ohms are the one I'm curious about. Thanks

 

[soundeffect]

The HD 598 lacks refinement and isn't of the same level as the HD 600, the HE-500, nor the DT 880. I would suggest you give the AKG K712 a look as it seems to fit all your preferences and does soundstage and imaging better than any of the headphones you listed.

Levi,
This right here. This is what I think of vs the he500. The HE500 is better all around sound quality wise. The hd598 is a good performer without an amp other than that I prefer my other headphones that are non portable. I also wonder if you would like something like the AKG 712, I've use to own the AKG 65th anniversary and it might be something you would enjoy.

 

[pp312]

 

 
 
Sorry for asking, but what's IndecentLevi doing these days? 

 

[Liu Junyuan]

Actually natural and neutral are quite different. Natural has to do more with how organically and true to life the overall sound is portrayed. Neutral is more about having the most accurate FR response. Neutral doesn't always equate to natural, sometimes it sounds quite artificial.

+1

 

[Bill-P]

It always comes down to the same thing:
What are you driving your 'phones with?
If the answer is an iPod, then you'll most likely be happier with 32 Ohm 'phones.
If the answer is an OTL vacuum tube amp, then the answer is you'll most likely be happier with the 600 Ohm version.

As usual, if possible, try before you buy.
You have to like your headphones and amp, not me or anyone else!

 
But some iPods actually have quite high an output impedance, so they'll distort with the 32 Ohm DT880 quite easily IMO.
 
And even some OTL tubes have an effect on the 600 Ohm Beyer. The 120 Ohm output impedance of the Bottlehead Crack, for instance, can cause the high end to roll off and the bass to fill out a little.
 
If the amp has a tilted frequency response to begin with, then it may balance out nicely, but I'd think it is still undesirable from an electrical standpoint. And that is to say... if we plug a 1000 Ohm headphone into the Crack, something... interesting may happen.
 

 

Make sense, I'm not expecting the 32 ohms to perform better than the other two as there is a sacrifice to had with a headphone that is easier to drive without an amp. I'm more curious of how handicap is the 32 ohm is when amping. If it's very minor performance with the amp I currently own then I'm okay with it. I'm just hoping it doesn't sound horrible or barely any improvement. Well I'll find out tonight, but I won't really really know without having the 250/600 ohms nearby. The 250 ohms are the one I'm curious about. Thanks

 
Well, lower impedance requires more of a current draw, so it may clip or cause unbalance issues with the output of the internal amps of certain devices. Especially if the power supply section is not properly designed... but then the power supply is rarely ever designed properly (low ripple) in lower-end devices.
 
And that's why some devices "improve" with better amping IMO. Because they weren't supplying clean power to begin with.
 
How is it possible that an iPod isn't supplying clean power on battery? Well, one possible reason being that most single-ended amplification devices require a power supply that has 3 supply rails... whereas batteries only have 2 rails. So a 3rd one has to be "made up" from the other 2 using some method, but then its stability would be questionable because it's not a true supply rail. Failure to stabilize it leads to the various problems that we keep hearing about... like high output impedance, high distortion, high hiss, etc...
 
But stabilizing it would kill battery life, and since battery life is sacred on a device like that, I guess you can see which design choice Apple and many other companies employed.
 
In a nutshell, that's also why desktop amplifiers can sound "better", because they can use 3 real supply rails, and they don't have to worry about making up and stabilizing a 3rd one. Heck, even the famed O2 can have slight distortion with very low impedance load, since it's also making up a 3rd supply rail, despite its creator's criticisms of such a design choice.
 
Back to the 32 Ohm... since it's so low in impedance, it can tend to interact badly with poorly designed amp. This may not be the case all the time, but that's a possible scenario with most cheaper amplifiers IMO.
 
So where am I going with this?
 
It would actually turn out... that due to the lower impedance, the 32 Ohm Beyer may benefit far more from amping than its brothers. Or to be more precise, I think the 32 Ohm would end up having more noticeable improvements with a properly designed amplifier than its brothers.
 
But in general usage, I would expect it to sound worse across the board due to the reasons stated above. The 250 and 600 Ohm headphones would probably be easier to deal with as far as amping requirements go.
 
The 600 Ohm would probably require more amping because at the gain that is required for it to sound loud enough, there are other considerations to be made to the power supply section... namely... higher voltage, which isn't an easy feat on a portable device, but is relatively easy with a desktop setup.

 

[Keithpgdrb]

HD-600 has better soundstage but there's more clarity in the HE-500 and it does bass and subbass better.

Curious but... how did you do an online-listening of the HD598?

Must disagree here.  the 600 has much better clarity in the upper register then the 500.  But it does indeed do bass and sub bass better.  You might be thinking of the senn 650

 

[sinnottj]

   
But some iPods actually have quite high an output impedance, so they'll distort with the 32 Ohm DT880 quite easily IMO.
 
And even some OTL tubes have an effect on the 600 Ohm Beyer. The 120 Ohm output impedance of the Bottlehead Crack, for instance, can cause the high end to roll off and the bass to fill out a little.
 
If the amp has a tilted frequency response to begin with, then it may balance out nicely, but I'd think it is still undesirable from an electrical standpoint. And that is to say... if we plug a 1000 Ohm headphone into the Crack, something... interesting may happen.
 

 
 
Well, lower impedance requires more of a current draw, so it may clip or cause unbalance issues with the output of the internal amps of certain devices. Especially if the power supply section is not properly designed... but then the power supply is rarely ever designed properly (low ripple) in lower-end devices.
 
And that's why some devices "improve" with better amping IMO. Because they weren't supplying clean power to begin with.
 
How is it possible that an iPod isn't supplying clean power on battery? Well, one possible reason being that most single-ended amplification devices require a power supply that has 3 supply rails... whereas batteries only have 2 rails. So a 3rd one has to be "made up" from the other 2 using some method, but then its stability would be questionable because it's not a true supply rail. Failure to stabilize it leads to the various problems that we keep hearing about... like high output impedance, high distortion, high hiss, etc...
 
But stabilizing it would kill battery life, and since battery life is sacred on a device like that, I guess you can see which design choice Apple and many other companies employed.
 
In a nutshell, that's also why desktop amplifiers can sound "better", because they can use 3 real supply rails, and they don't have to worry about making up and stabilizing a 3rd one. Heck, even the famed O2 can have slight distortion with very low impedance load, since it's also making up a 3rd supply rail, despite its creator's criticisms of such a design choice.
 
Back to the 32 Ohm... since it's so low in impedance, it can tend to interact badly with poorly designed amp. This may not be the case all the time, but that's a possible scenario with most cheaper amplifiers IMO.
 
So where am I going with this?
 
It would actually turn out... that due to the lower impedance, the 32 Ohm Beyer may benefit far more from amping than its brothers. Or to be more precise, I think the 32 Ohm would end up having more noticeable improvements with a properly designed amplifier than its brothers.
 
But in general usage, I would expect it to sound worse across the board due to the reasons stated above. The 250 and 600 Ohm headphones would probably be easier to deal with as far as amping requirements go.
 
The 600 Ohm would probably require more amping because at the gain that is required for it to sound loud enough, there are other considerations to be made to the power supply section... namely... higher voltage, which isn't an easy feat on a portable device, but is relatively easy with a desktop setup.

 
This is a great post that succinctly explains a lot of the potentially confusing (and counter-intuitive) issues around headphone impedance!
 
For what it's worth, I found the 250ohm DT880 generally quite easy to drive from portable devices. The 600 Ohm model, on the other hand, turned into a farty mess

 

[Makiah S]

   
Hmmmm - interesting.  I read it.  Pleased they work for you, but as an ex owner of both (so I had quite a bit of time with both), here's what I think .....
 
 This was the first bit that set off alarm bells.  You've "thoroughly" tested the SRH 940 for one day - and they're better than the DT880 - OK .....
 
Suggest you google SRH940 and "broken headband".  It's one of the poorest builds Shure ever put together and has a history of breaking - even if you take immaculate care of them.  As far as long term comfort goes - those bumps on the headband also got annoying after a while for me.  As far as comfort and build goes - the DT880 are miles ahead.  Guarantee the majority will think the same.
 
Bass is OK - I'd argue that the DT880 is far more linear with better sub-bass.  SRH940 also has a notch between mid and sub bass that's hard to pick up at first - but over time you may find it annoying. It's one of the things that led to me selling my pair.  The bass on the 940's is fast anyway - but I doubt there would be more bass than the DT880.  Did you level match when you were making your comparison?
 
Mids - yep they are warm and dry, slightly euphonic, very forward and very coloured, and not in the slightest what I would call "realistic".
 
Treble accurate - um, not really.  Let's agree to disagree on that one.
 
 
The DT880 isn't mid-range recessed, it's actually pretty flat - one of the more neutral headphones I've heard.  the difference is that the SRH940 is quite mid-forward.  Easy to listen to the 940 though and draw the wrong conclusion.
 
Again though - with your A/B comparison - did you volume match the two headphones, and how?
 
Yeah - nah!  I'd ask again about the volume matching - but it's pretty obvious you didn't.  Don't worry - it's an easy mistake to make. What is louder to us sounds better - it's the way we are wired.  As far as the 940 benefiting from an amp - it's a headphone with 42 ohm impedance and a sensitivity of 100 dB mW IE it's designed to sound really good out of even a smartphone.  IMO it didn't benefit from amping - and what you're describing doesn't gel with the actual specifications or my own experience.
 
Agree with you on the sound stage - the SRH940 isn't too bad for a closed can.  The DT880 is far better with both imaging and staging though.  Also agree with your comments on lack of bass, and too forward mid-range with the SRH940.
 
Hey I'm pleased the 940's tick your boxes - enjoy them. Just beware about making a lot of claims about the cans (especially in a DT880 appreciation thread!), when you've had them less than a day, and don't really know them that well.  Come back in 4-6 weeks wehn you've grown used to their signature and can give a balanced comparison between the two (without the new toy syndrome hype) - and I'm sure you'll get some interest in what you have to report.
 
This is the bit that made me smile the most. You haven't heard the SRH1840 or SRH1440, yet you already appear to know their signature and imaging ability (which you've got totally wrong by the way), and are ready to recommend the SRH940 regardless .......
 
I owned the SRH1840 as well - similar tonality to an HD600 in many ways - just without the mid-bass hump.  Very, very neutral.  Not an expansive stage, but magical imaging.  Far better bass quality than the SRH940, and far more comfortable.  I've seen them occasionally for as low as $350 second hand, and I would have rebought it again if I didn't have my HD600 and T1.
 
Anyway - I digress.  Sorry if it sounds as though I'm picking your post to pieces - I guess I am, but not trying to attack you personally.  I'd suggest taking some time to get to know your headphones first, and see if you can volume match with an spl meter (smartphone and app with standard test tones can get you to within 1dB), when making comparisons.
 
Enjoy the SRH940 - they are definitely euphoric sounding when you first get them.  For me personally, that wore off in a few weeks, and I got to realise they were a bit too coloured for my personal tastes.  The DT880 though - pure magic. I'd still have mine if I hadn't switched to the T1.  And that's a whole different ball game 

 

Wow Brooko, I'm impressed... I've been on the receiving end of your wisdom many times, and every time I did appreciate it. But I think this poor fellow has out beaten me!
 
Ehhm, still using DT 880 Pads on my HE 4, that comfort is amazing and still recommending the headphone on a daily basis q.q, just hoping I can try a T1 some time sooon! 

 

[Muessig]

I'm considering these phones - anyone know where I can get them for a good price in the UK?

 

[MrEleventy]

Must disagree here.  the 600 has much better clarity in the upper register then the 500.  But it does indeed do bass and sub bass better. You might be thinking of the senn 650

I guess I should've been more specific/clear in what I meant; I should've said that the clarity was around in the mids. I noticed better separation in vocals. And now that you mention it, I agree that the HD600s does highs/upper register better. HE-500's highs seems to roll off early, which is probably what hurts the soundstage.

 

[SunshineReggae]

I guess I should've been more specific/clear in what I meant; I should've said that the clarity was around in the mids. I noticed better separation in vocals. And now that you mention it, I agree that the HD600s does highs/upper register better. HE-500's highs seems to roll off early, which is probably what hurts the soundstage.

 
I don't think so, I think what hurts the HE-500's soundstage is the fact that it's a planar. By comparison, you can dial down the treble on the DT880 as much as you want, it will always maintain that oh so very nice spacious soundstage.