[dlaloum]

We're sort of in violent agreement....
 
600ohm HP's were developed in the days when the speaker power amp outputs were being connected to HP's via a resistor network.... so High impedance meant you didn't get too much current through them - and the amps were easily capable of driving them - as with that impedance the amp can become basically a pure Voltage amp rather than needing current...
 
If you apply the same thing at Headphone amp level - with 600ohm HP's the circuit can focus on delivering voltage swings - and it needs to deliver substantial voltage swings (hence "hard to drive")
 
On the other hand opamps aren't exactly current monsters (to the best of my knowledge) - so allowing them to work primarily in the voltage domain enables them to run in their "sweet zone" and sound better.
 
If it's a buffered circuit, then most of the current comes from the buffer - so less of an issue (or more of an issue if it is a poor buffer)
 
One does wonder whether with the 600ohm HP's - the buffer circuits might become redundant as the opamps may have enough current output to drive them directly. (DEFINITELY NOT the case for 32ohm HP's where you need lots more current)
 
And would the sound therefore improve (due to simpler circuit) with the right opamp in a super simple high voltage output capable circuit. 
 
So my argument is that in the world view of the 1950's through to early 1990's a 600ohm HP was considered "easy to drive" (standard HP amps were speaker amps!)
 
Once the Walkman took the world by storm sony and co started releasing headphones designed for small battery powered portable devices - the continued until 90% of the HP market was/is low impedance portable lightweight - low impedance.
 
Suddenly you have a generation of HP amps designed for low impedance headphones (that is now the default) - and with this generation of HP's classic Beyer DT880's, AGK240's and other classic headphones are considered "hard to drive"..... which is BS - they are not hard to drive, but their requirements are different - they want voltage not current.
 
If you try to drive them with an amp designed for the majority of the current market - then the amp struggles, and the HP's are indeed "hard to drive".
 
By the way if you look up the Beyer A1 amp - they provide power specs for various impedances (just like speaker amps provide power specs for 8/6/4 ohms)
 
In any case the Matrix M-Stage I have doesn't break a sweat with them, Neither does my Onkyo TX-SR876 receiver HP Jack, or any of my power amps through a resistor adaptor (Art Headtap).
Other devices that cope very well (superbly) with the 600ohm Revox 3100 (DT880 / 600) are my Revox Components - B225 cd player, B215 cassette deck, B261 tuner - all their HP jacks work perfectly and provide great results.... 
 
But then ALL the above are "old" tech - I haven't tried an iPod....
 
 

 

[Skylab]

Just to be clear - when fed an input of 100mW, the 600 ohm Beyers and the 32 ohm Beyers will deliver the same volume level, because the efficiency is the same.  The 32 ohm versions will require more current to get to 100mW; the 600 ohm versions will require more voltage.  Amp accordingly.

 

[Spike99]

Quote:

For gaming you might want to look into the DT770 instead as it has a closed design. Noise from outside will be blocked out almost entirely.
 
And to all people wondering... With a proper amp it really doesn't matter if you have either the 250 or 600 ohm variant. The 600OHM is not harder to drive, it just sounds better.

hmmm, I probably do want closed... but since DT880 were semi open I didn't think it would be bad either...  Maybe I should get them closed...

 

[wankski]

ok few points...
 
1) beyer 600s overkill for pc gaming? IDK, i'm not gunna make a value judgement here, but i'd hazard to say u'd be better off investigating a range of phones that gamers consider good... I'm sure u'd want good soundstage and bass or something, clarity and a neutral response probably not so much... But there is no point making life difficult in requiring an often expensive high voltage amp to power phones when you can get great sounding phones that WILL run off an ipod (or soundcard) just fine... denon 2000s, AT AD700/900s, sennheiser 555 (and their closed range)... etc I also like the dt770 pro suggestion... grab it in 32 or 80ohm....
 
2) OLD tech argument is kinda a weird one given the guy specifically was talking abot a PCI soundcard.... but i'm happy to call a truce... as for amping you're right - but i would prefer to eliminate opamps altogether, its tough going to find some that will take 36v on up.... and even at 36v it constrains your choices.... not to myself fall into a fad or trite opinion, but that's where OTL tube amps really shine, as yes, you wont need an output transformer to step down voltage and pump out current for low Z phones, in fact you can even eliminate caps and go straight from tubes.... This is why on a cost basis something like the Bijou all tube amp is particularly good. To give you an idea, it runs 520VAC !!  'back in the day' those kind of voltages and amp set ups would be quite common for phones i'd imagine...
 
Other amps like Little Dots look to the goods too... the MK III and IV increase their power output as phone impedence increases, making them a solid choice for 600ohm cans...
 
3) Skylab, spot on. power is power and thats whats required to do work. Any can needs needs to be properly juiced, and in the current market and especially when considering SS amps, voltage is likely to be the limiting factor when considering properly juicing 600Z amps. ohms law, no 2 ways about it.

 

[wankski]

Quote:

hmmm, I probably do want closed... but since DT880 were semi open I didn't think it would be bad either...  Maybe I should get them closed...

 
The 880s are def more open than closed... in terms of leakage they are no different than the 990s, but I feel the 990s have better soundstage...

 

 

[apatN]

Quote:

Quote:
 
The 880s are def more open than closed... in terms of leakage they are no different than the 990s, but I feel the 990s have better soundstage...

 

I agree with your statement about the 880s. I haven't noticed anything semi-closed about them. I never heard a 990 but what I read is that they seem to boost the treble and bass a little. This may explain why you are hearing a better soundstage. The DT880s will be more neutral and will have a more cohesive sound.
I think the DT770 is not a bad option at all. I even heard - if I recall correctly it was nickchen who said this - that the difference between the DT770 250OHM and 600OHM are negligible. Wankski you are wrong in that there is a DT770 PRO 32OHM, that's the Premium (consumer) line of them. If you want to go the DT770 route I suggest you take the Premiumline 600 or 250. The DT770 Pro 80 OHM will be easier to drive, but it won't sound as good as the Premium line DT770.

 

[Zombie_X]

I have the DT880 and DT990 here side by side and the DT990's soundstage is wider than the DT880's by quite a bit.
 
Quote:

I agree with your statement about the 880s. I haven't noticed anything semi-closed about them. I never heard a 990 but what I read is that they seem to boost the treble and bass a little. This may explain why you are hearing a better soundstage. The DT880s will be more neutral and will have a more cohesive sound.
I think the DT770 is not a bad option at all. I even heard - if I recall correctly it was nickchen who said this - that the difference between the DT770 250OHM and 600OHM are negligible. Wankski you are wrong in that there is a DT770 PRO 32OHM, that's the Premium (consumer) line of them. If you want to go the DT770 route I suggest you take the Premiumline 600 or 250. The DT770 Pro 80 OHM will be easier to drive, but it won't sound as good as the Premium line DT770.

 

[apatN]

Thanks Zombie_X, I didn't know that.

 

[Zombie_X]

No problem

 
An other questions about the differences between the models? I can help out with any more questions.

 

[Cal]

i find that my 990s leak more than my 880s. not that it matters, but both are 600 ohm.
Quote:

Quote:
 
The 880s are def more open than closed... in terms of leakage they are no different than the 990s, but I feel the 990s have better soundstage...

 

 

[draven5494]

I really didn't like the DT990/600s at all when I had them.  They were just to bright to my ears.  I suppose I prefer a warmer sound.  
 
On another note, for you guys running your DT880/600s through the Matrix m-stage what are your gain and volume settings.  I am running my DT880s through my m-stage connected to my Auzentech Forte sound card.  I currently have my gain set to 18, my volume in windows is about 65% and my volume on the m-stage is at about 2 o'clock.  I could probably go higher but I didn't expect to have to push the volume up on the amp so much.  Does the m-stage max at 600ohms or am I just completely confused here?

 

[wankski]

meh pro/premium whats the difference apart from the headband? - now why would someone who wants to connect to a decent soundcard for GAMING want to go thru the 600/250 amp compatibility problem? 32/80 will do fine, cos that's what they're designed for.... they're also more versatile and they'll do better of more sources than 600s...
 
level of leakage - i never measured b/w the 880 and 990 - point being the 880 leaks heaps and are essentially open but are closed enough to contrict the soundstage somewhat...
 
draven - are you using the line out or the headphone out of your sound card to connect to the amp?  apparently from what i've read (IIRC) the M-stage puts 30V to the opamp, so as i've stated above, that should borderline sufficient for the beyer 880/600s... i mean u'd possibly want more headroom, but it'd do....

 

[draven5494]

I am running straight out of the headphone jack on the sound card.  I am using a 1/8" to RCA cable to connect to the amp.  

 

[dlaloum]

Quote:

I really didn't like the DT990/600s at all when I had them.  They were just to bright to my ears.  I suppose I prefer a warmer sound.  
 
On another note, for you guys running your DT880/600s through the Matrix m-stage what are your gain and volume settings.  I am running my DT880s through my m-stage connected to my Auzentech Forte sound card.  I currently have my gain set to 18, my volume in windows is about 65% and my volume on the m-stage is at about 2 o'clock.  I could probably go higher but I didn't expect to have to push the volume up on the amp so much.  Does the m-stage max at 600ohms or am I just completely confused here?

My M-Audio has the option of fixed output (bit perfect) or variable output (varied in digital domain) - so I keep it fixed and use the M-Stage for Volume variation. I have the M-stage set to maximum gain at the moment (can't remember which setting that is on the dip switches) - and I tend to run between 9 and 12 o'clock....

 

[ribafish]

I'm 99% I'm gonna order me dt880/600, which should be a big step-up from senn hd555=). I'm looking for a suiting amp to use with them...Budget is around 500 dollars-->350-400€(I live in Slovenia, Europe, so the fact that it can get shipped to me is pretty important). Will be using them for mixing/checking my mixes for additional details I might miss on monitors and everyday use(I'm used to using my monitors for everything, so there should be no problem)-music(everything from jazz to metal), movies, etc.
 
I want the flattest sound possible(given the price tag), so I guess I'm going for SS over tube. The fact is that I will probably be moving amp an cans a lot for checking recordings on spot-no need to haul monitors back and forth, so SS seem less fragile and vibrations sensitive. Well the main thing is that it will sound good. So far I've heard that these could do: Matrix M-Stage, Audio GD c2c, Sheer Audio HA-006+, Firestone Cute Curve/Beyond, Little Dot MKV,...and probably some i forgot.
If there is no SS amp that would do the trick...tubes would be still better than nothing(but still don't want colored sound)...So far I've noticed Little Dot MkIII/IV/IVSE, WooAudio WA3 and Darkvoice 336SE and 3322.
For now source will be Tascam audio interface...and will probably change to a decent dac somewhere down the road...if I'll hear it necessary.  So...what to get?
 
 
Thank you for your help.
 
PS: If you think other headphones would be more suitable for this...I haven't ordered them yet so there's still time(Still a dilemma between 880/600, 880pro and senn hd650 or hd600).
PS2: I'm going to a friends house in next days to compare dt880/250(i think) and hd650 on woo wa6se, so we'll see how that goes=)
PS3: Yes, I actually read all the 61 pages and haven't found a good answer