[bmichels]

Got your point, but still, I don't understand why they moved from Wolfson WM8740 to Cirrus Logic CS4398 instead of WM8741 ?  

 

[bowei006]

  Got your point, but still, I don't understand why they moved from Wolfson WM8740 to Cirrus Logic CS4398 instead of WM8741 ?  

CS4398 sounds a lot better than WM8741 by the way in my opinion. I haven't met many that have disagreed. 
 
Also, the WM 8740 has been very very overused as of late. Gotta change it up is what I think they are doing.

 

[jamato8]

  CS4398 for more mainstream devices? What?

---

Please Read this before continuing with your flame wars people:

 
I am absolutely in favor of stuff like the AK 240. I absolutely am. We must first acertain that we are in a niche field. 
 
Jude's comment on pushing the envelop of innovation is exactly why I think stuff like the AK 240 is good for the field. Look around guys, half the audiophile DAP's on the markets have problems here and there. The AK's aren't without their share of problems from what I've heard, but its like the Apple of DAP's. It doesn't need the best sound or anything. It just needs to 'work'.
 
How does this push the field better? Well, IF WE WERE ALL to use the mindset of hating on the AK240 right now as we did back with the CMOY's, headphone audio may not have gotten anywhere.
 
THEY ARE CHARING 2X for a new amp!?? What? Nah bro. I gots me a Cmoy. That stuff is too expensive!!
 
I  don't see or use price as ANY type of object in a niche field like audio. Because think about it. Companies that are pushing the field and focusing on perfecting - or at the least attempting to perfect - one aspect of that device are spending lots of money and going somewhere others aren't. 
 
But of course, there is then going to be a price precedent and the fact that cost still matters. I'm not going to ignore this. Hold one with me. Let's talk economics now.
 
The AK 240 is obviously VERY expensive. But that's good. That's very good. It means that there is a chance for competition and lots of it. This is why companies in niche fields charge insane amounts of money for their flagship items. Because competition and like products will come out soon that will more or less force them to do something about it or lower the price. They need to make back the money from R and D AND IN TAKING A CHANCE. Companies charge and overcharge to make up for the fact that they are taking such a huge gamble in the market becuase sooner than later, another competitor will come up.
 
Look at FiiO, look at Hisound! This is the competition we are talking about. One company that pushes the field a few years ago (AK 100) will soon receive a challenger that sets a price that people want. Introducing the X5, X3, DX50 etc etc. 
 
Therefore, the price of a product that a company in a niche field products isn't of issue. If it's a shawty product, it won't sell and will fail. If it's TRULY innovative and pushes the field in the direction that other companies see as the future, then competition will soon arise.
 
Guess what guys, the AK class pushed it in that direction. Look at the FiiO X5 and DX50. They recognize that direction, and the fans innately want it and thus are pushing for that direction also. This is the type of directional innovation I was talking about. It is something that also corelates with economics. If its bad in a niche market. It fails. But if it's good, but very pricey, but pushes the field into a new direction. Then, other competition will soon join to produce units with same features or sound with lower price.
 
Now go back a few steps and put yourselves into the shoes of a niche enthusiast company. Your sales, revenue, profit, margins etc are X Y Z. You are a small company as compared to others. Can you imagine the costs, and gamble you must take? Hence the price
 
Those that can afford the price of the very expensive first innovative products will buy them. Simple as that. If you can't afford it or rational it. Wait. 
 
 
Can't ANY of you see that your maxims will fail if you were to castrize something like the AK 240? Look at the Tesla motors car, the first SUV's, the first hypersonic jet. YES, the COST A CRAP TON of money. But they are the ones that creates the futures in each field that they are in. 
 
You guys that are castrizing the AK 240 are setting up very dangerous maxims that you may not understand. A maxim is a sort of law that has to hold true the first AND last time you do it. The example would be a maxim of asking to borrow money from a friend without the intention to pay it back despite the promise. This maxim fails because you can't do it again as your friend won't lend you money.
 
The maxim set in the case of the AK 240 by those that are criticizing its price, is one of stopping innovation, and in stopping the future. Does the huge asking price set a precedent for the $10,000 DAP? Sure. Could it still have some non-perfect issues? Sure. But guess what, this is just part of the field and part of the game. Those that will buy that $10,000 DAP on initial asking price are supporting those practicies and that company. If what is inside that $10,000 DAP is TRULY good, and is something that the people want. Guess what, competition will arise. And that non perfect player? Its gonna happen, you don't have the money? Don't buy it and wait for the comeptition
 
 
I repeated a lot of the same info about 2-3x to make sure that I can use different examples and situations as a way to explain my view point on the AK 240 and similar devices.
 
 
-------------
I believe the reason with why I agree with Jude is due to us reviewing a lot of stuff. He obviously has reviewed a lot more than I have. But even with the amount I've done. It's come to the point in where everything is literally very stagnant. Oh, new package with an IEM. Cool. That stuff just isn't interesting anymore, seeing the same design, seeing the same type of functionality. It's just gotten boring. Stuff comes in costing tens of dollars to digits much higher than Iwould ever care for. It's all, just very stagnant. They sit on my shelf. It's just not interesting anymore. That's why it is there may be such a disconnect between some of us. Some of us see the AK 240 as something they may possibly 'use' or own. And thats why the $2,400 may be alarming to them. But to others, that device can be $5,000, but if it won't push the envelope, its still just part of everything else. That doesn't mean to say its not going to be a 'good' device'. It will be. But there comes a time of when you get bored of the stuff you get, and just want to see some REAL innovation that tries to push the envelope. 

---

 
Disclaimer: This post has some heated text inputed in it. NONE of it was directed at any individual, company, entity, product. Any mention of any company or product in it was used soley as an example for innovation and is not a true representation of their product or their standing in their persepctive fields. 
 
If anyone's feelings are hurt by this post, despite it not referencing anyone, please note that it was not intentional as I was not referecing anyone here. This post is also not in protecting the AK 240. I have not used the AK 240. This post is rather in showing some of the faults of logic and rationale some are using in terms of real life innovation with the AK 240 and audiphile niche DAP market as its main example for use. I do not believe any HF ToS was violated by this post or in anything referenced in it. I, Panda, encourage discussion, debate, and learning on a higher level. I can definately be argued on some of my points. If so, please do. Everyone can learn. These are but the type of economics, business practices, and other situations that are represented by my type of thought.
 

 
The AK100 came out after the DX100, which is still better, IMO, than the AK100. I don't see that the AK100 pushed anything. DAPs were already in the pipeline, as was the design when the AK100 came along. The AK100 is a nice size but besides that, iRiver held back on firmware and design only coming up with the AK100 II to get to the better sound but offering nothing the previous purchasers of the Ak100 and then there is the gapless that people had been asking iRiver for over and over and they promised, only to come out with it on the AK120 and a hack got it to the AK100 before iRiver. I don't see the AK240 as pushing the envelope except opening up the wallet ever wider when companies like HiFiman, iBasso, FiiO and who knows whom else, already had and have plans for better and better models, regardless of what iRiver does. What the other companies will do, as you point out, is offer performance and value and this over just a hyper shaped dap and price. All IMO. 
 
What iRiver is doing is nothing new but people have short memories. 

 

[bowei006]

   
The AK100 came out after the DX100, which is still better, IMO, than the AK100. I don't see that the AK100 pushed anything. DAPs were already in the pipeline, as was the design when the AK100 came along. The AK100 is a nice size but besides that, iRiver held back on firmware and design only coming up with the AK100 II to get to the better sound but offering nothing the previous purchasers of the Ak100 and then there is the gapless that people had been asking iRiver for over and over and they promised, only to come out with it on the AK120 and a hack got it to the AK100 before iRiver. I don't see the AK240 as pushing the envelope except opening up the wallet ever wider when companies like HiFiman, iBasso, FiiO and who knows whom else, already had and have plans for better and better models, regardless of what iRiver does. What the other companies will do, as you point out, is offer performance and value and this over just a hyper shaped dap and price. All IMO. 
 
What iRiver is doing is nothing new but people have short memories. 

Nice point you have there.
 
My post as I said in one of the ending statements wasn't really on the AK 240 or similar units. But rather a general statement pointing out some of fallcy in some of the arguments people are making about it. 
 
You could easilly repurpose my post for the DX100 or anything. 

 

[Gintaras]

Bowe, i am sorry to point you to that Naim produces excellent CDS 555 for years, not much revision down the road and no price drop either.

You say competition? Who cares, this is high end, you establish exclusivity brand and charge as you wish, and competition will do the same.

So while there are some points i agree i cannot agree to your conclusions. And AK steps into this territorry without having an open end license to rip us of teh money like Naim or Chord have, it's about tons of know how, proprietary hardware and stellar name costing a big extra. This is why i am not a buyer of Ak240 despite that i have Naim CDP in my front end rig.

 

[CosmicHolyGhost]

  Nice point you have there.
 
My post as I said in one of the ending statements wasn't really on the AK 240 or similar units. But rather a general statement pointing out some of fallcy in some of the arguments people are making about it. 
 
You could easilly repurpose my post for the DX100 or anything. 

Just to add, HM901 has balance phone out before AK240. I am interested to demo AK240 but I cannot understand what innovation it has achieved

 

[audionewbi]

@bowei006 We have to hope it will create competition, as I have stated before it might sway the other DAP makers in a different direction, in a direction that perhaps they can charge a little more for their piece of cake.
 
I do not believe in the niche market argument. The high end DAP market is only niche because they want it to be. It is niche because your average joe will not be able to afford it. Ask yourself the question, can anything in the current mass production market era cost above 2K? The niche market argument can easily go away if they decrease their profit margin. But they wouldn't, you know why? Because they do not want to be in competition with apple? Because your avarage joe will also want a UI at least as good as apple which non of the current high end DAPS can offer.
 
So they keep the prices high for a)profit and b)for not been able to still compete with apple on UI alone.This is why apple based stack are still going strong.
 
That is my opinion and will remain to be till calyxM is in my hand for testing. 

 

[ALRAINBOW]

I would think the size. I do not know any other daps that small with a display and features. . Also what other dap is Lso a desktop USB dac ? I owned the ak 120 and the hibino HDP r10. . I still own the hibino. But it is much larger and not a desktop USB dac too.

Al

 

[gikigill]

The only maxim this is gonna set is one of higher and higher prices.
 
An ak100 has to have a $250 surgery to perform properly which doesn't inspire a lot of confidence and the ak120 was well double the price.
 
The ak240 is simply stratospheric. What is stopping other firms to push their $500 dap to $1500?
 
 

 

[bowei006]

Bowe, i am sorry to point you to that Naim produces excellent CDS 555 for years, not much revision down the road and no price drop either.

You say competition? Who cares, this is high end, you establish exclusivity brand and charge as you wish, and competition will do the same.
 

So while there are some points i agree i cannot agree to your conclusions. And AK steps into this territorry without having an open end license to rip us of teh money like Naim or Chord have, it's about tons of know how, proprietary hardware and stellar name costing a big extra. This is why i am not a buyer of Ak240 despite that i have Naim CDP in my front end rig.

You are missing the point. It's not that the competition will make a unit of the same caliber for a lot less cost. But that there WILL be competition to strive to make a competetive product. 
 

 You say competition? Who cares, this is high end, you establish exclusivity brand and charge as you wish, and competition will do the same.

If any market actually worked like that, it would be ruined before I could write another post.
 
Competition to that initial brand won't just charge the same price IF the people that saw that initial product TO BE  a spearhead want that product at a lower price. This is of course to be assuming that people not only want and see that product as a spearhead of innovation or what not, but in that they also want a lower price. 
 
And I respect your decision. That was also part of my post. You are just one of the users that don't see the point in it, or see it to be a spearhead and thus won't buy it. That's fine. If most of the buyers in a market are just like you, then that product will most likely not make a 'ding' in the product timeline 40 years from now and it most likely will go into oblivion.
 

 
Just to add, HM901 has balance phone out before AK240. I am interested to demo AK240 but I cannot understand what innovation it has achieved

I'm not arguing for features of a unit.
 
I'm arguing for the consumer responce to a product. If a consumer sees a new product and they actually want it, and at a lower price. Then competition will come in and produce it. Tesla is an example of this.
 
If its a product that tries to move in a new direction at a very high price, but nobody wants it, then it will fall into oblivion. Half the old game system gadgets in the 90's fall into this category.

 

[jamato8]

  Nice point you have there.
 
My post as I said in one of the ending statements wasn't really on the AK 240 or similar units. But rather a general statement pointing out some of fallcy in some of the arguments people are making about it. 
 
You could easilly repurpose my post for the DX100 or anything. 

I understand. 
 

 
Just to add, HM901 has balance phone out before AK240. I am interested to demo AK240 but I cannot understand what innovation it has achieved

Innovative look maybe.  There is nothing new, not even the price though you may get more features than the other dap that has almost none but is around 2400 dollars. And if the dacs they used sound great, all the more surprise and fine with me but how much better had they used even better dacs.

 

[Poimandres]

This thread has certainly exploded since the last time I visited it.

I would certainly entertain the thought of dropping this kind of cash on a product like this if I felt it was warranted.

IMHO sound quality would be the utmost priority followed by the ui (should be smooth as silk in this range) and lastly form factor/aesthetics.

I wish AK or iRiver luck with this endeavor and hopefully this ugly betty (again IMHO) sounds better than it looks.

 

[CosmicHolyGhost]

  I'm arguing for the consumer responce to a product. If a consumer sees a new product and they actually want it, and at a lower price. Then competition will come in and produce it. Tesla is an example of this.

I agree with you about the competition leads to better alternatives. I think a lot of us worried that AK pricing model would inspire other audiophile DAP companies to follow... However, it was discussed a few pages back that this was never the case..... So I guess I am no longer worried.
 
There is no point to rationalize why well heeled people buy expensive things... lets focus back on the product itself.

 

[bowei006]

In order not to be pulled into the flame war that is still going on in this thread.
 
I will not respond to ANY quotes or responces from anyone that doesn't actively pursue in respectable discussion. This is not to berate anyone. I respect anyone's opinions as their own. But in order to fully comply with Head-Fi ToS, and in being a respectable member of this community. I can not allow myself to join in on any banter.
 
I will also not be responding to posts about how the AK 240 or _insert DAP here_ had features or whatever. That was not the point of my post. I will be responding to posts about economics, consumer-company relations and pricing, and other related topics that coorelate to my main argument that was summarized here:

 I'm arguing for the consumer responce to a product. If a consumer sees a new product and they actually want it, and at a lower price. Then competition will come in and produce it. Tesla is an example of this.  
If its a product that tries to move in a new direction at a very high price, but nobody wants it, then it will fall into oblivion. Half the old game system gadgets in the 90's fall into this category.

 
Thank you guys very much for those that read my initial post or to those that want to discuss it. 

 

[OK-Guy]

Jude, more than the downloading what I would love to know is how you find it streaming from your computers hard drive. I don't know if you have the free soft wear A&K told me on FB that will be available to achieve this function but for me that is a big thing as my critical listening is done at home with my TU-05 and LCD's or T5P's to be able to stream from my Mac's hard drive right to the player will be useful I think.

 
buy a ZX! & save yourself a fortune (it does the downloady & streamy thingies).