Testing audiophile claims and myths

[gregorio]

Because measurement for you includes recording it.

Measurement for everyone includes (digitally) recording it because a digital recording is a measurement, regardless of whether others know this basic fact or not and you yourself admitted that amplitude is a measurement!

Something you are likely well qualified to do. Yet is useless on its own in this case.

Obviously it cannot be useless because I’ve just used it (to disprove an observation/assertion)! Also obviously, a measurement that evidences an actual objective difference is inherently useful and we can, if required, proceed to identifying what the difference is and what’s causing it.

The common measurements as you put it, which do not include your get-out clause of recording it, and saying you're done.

The “clause” I’m using, as you well know, could be a recording of the difference or some other measurement. And a recording of the difference is analysable, at least in terms of frequency content, which you also know. And, as it disproves the observation/assertion then we are “done”. If the poster comes back with the question; “What is the difference”, then obviously, that’s another, different question!

Also uncommon measurements do not allow any analysis to find a cause.

A Transient Inter-Modulation measurement is an uncommon measurement, doesn’t it allow us to analyse TIM?

An MP3 at a high bit rate (by your own words, transparent), proves nothing on its own. Neither does PCM on its own. We need analysis to understand the difference.

The question in this case was “does a measurement exist that evidences the existence of the difference”. Your argument; Does a measurement exist that allows “analysis to understand the difference” is obviously an entirely different question. I can’t see why you find this so difficult to understand, unless of course you do understand it and are just trolling?

G

 

[gregorio]

The untrasonic outptu of DAC, while filtered, is still present. The amplifier will react differently to that even if the front end is bipolar or JFET. You say this stuff as definative, yet you do not have the experience to know the subtitles of this.

The subtitles of what? What you have described is obviously an amplifier reaction, not “the same DAC can sound very different …”, which is the point being addressed. And I do have a great deal of experience analysing the output of DACs.

Is this always going to be your MO, stating that I/We are wrong by arguing a completely different point?

G

 

[bigshot]

Inaudible frequencies that have been filtered out make no audible difference for two separate reasons!

 

[jagwap]

The subtitles of what? What you have described is obviously an amplifier reaction, not “the same DAC can sound very different …”, which is the point being addressed. And I do have a great deal of experience analysing the output of DACs.

Is this always going to be your MO, stating that I/We are wrong by arguing a completely different point?

G

It is not a different point. The sound is different. The reasons it can be different are either beyond you, or you are only arguing that the OP said the DAC sounds different when they mean the system sounds different, and you are pouncing on the the distiction to be pedantic.

 

[jagwap]

The subtitles of what? What you have described is obviously an amplifier reaction, not “the same DAC can sound very different …”, which is the point being addressed. And I do have a great deal of experience analysing the output of DACs.

Is this always going to be your MO, stating that I/We are wrong by arguing a completely different point?

G

You chose to argue a different point than the OP, so that you can tell them they are wrong. That seems to be your motive. You hide it in pedantic semantics so that you can not be challenged.

 

[gregorio]

It is not a different point.

Either you’re claiming that different responses from amps somehow feedback and cause the DAC to change it’s output or it IS a different point!

You chose to argue a different point than the OP, so that you can tell them they are wrong.

You’re getting confused, that’s your modus operandi! Repeating the accusation just levelled at you is only worthy of a young child or a troll.

G

 

[jagwap]

My motivation for posting here is as far from trolling as it is possible to be. I am here to "change hearts and minds". Initially it was to stop the objectivist bullies from stomping all over genuine audio enthusiasts when they speak of their experiences. Especially when they experience something I have seen in person, and had verified by colleagues. Some of their experiences are valid, and they get discouraged by the attitude here. In audio we do not know everything yet, and I think we have agreed that recently. But still, the barrage continues.

 

[jagwap]

Either you’re claiming that different responses from amps somehow feedback and cause the DAC to change it’s output or it IS a different point!

No, I'm not. I said system, and you removed that.

You’re getting confused, that’s your modus operandi! Repeating the accusation just levelled at you is only worthy of a young child or a troll.

No, I'm not.

G

"BANNED FROM POSTING! All posts are invisible to members until approved by admins, who are approving almost none of them!"

Is this true? Seems unlikely recently.

 

[gregorio]

My motivation for posting here is as far from trolling as it is possible to be. I am here to "change hearts and minds".

But if you’re here to “change hearts and minds” by arguing different points to the ones being raised, then you are trolling. If you can argue the actual points under discussion, in agreement with the science or with reliable evidence if not, then you could change hearts and minds and wouldn’t be trolling.

No, I'm not. I said system, and you removed that.

Exactly, so you admit it again. The assertion I quoted and was discussing was: “But the same DAC can sound very different, with different amps.” - No mention of “system”, only of the same DAC sounding different (according allegedly to what you plug it’s output into).

Can a system sound different with a different DAC or amp? Potentially “yes”, given certain conditions but that is a different question/assertion!!!

G

 

[gregorio]

Inaudible frequencies that have been filtered out make no audible difference for two separate reasons!

To be fair, it is possible. There are some DACs with relatively poor filters. I’ve measured some that had particularly poor filters at a sampling rate of 192kHz and only filtered out content above Nyquist down to around -40dB. And, some amps can be very sensitive to ultrasonic freqs above their design range and produce IMD in the audible freq range in response.

I don’t know if there are still DACs around with such poor filters or how many amps are available that would produce IMD in response to such relatively low levels of ultrasonic content. This combination of DAC and amp might be extremely rare (I don’t know) but it is possible. This doesn’t affect our discussion though because if it does occur then it’s the amp changing the sound, not the DAC.

G

 

[bigshot]

My motivation for posting here is as far from trolling as it is possible to be. I am here to "change hearts and minds". Initially it was to stop the objectivist bullies from stomping all over genuine audio enthusiasts when they speak of their experiences. Especially when they experience something I have seen in person, and had verified by colleagues. Some of their experiences are valid, and they get discouraged by the attitude here.

Kind of like Zorro for subjugated anti intellectual types, eh? I bet all the little children crowd around you cheering and wanting to shake your hand when you arrive at the pueblo!

 

[GearMe]

Kind of like Zorro for subjugated anti intellectual types, eh? I bet all the little children crowd around you cheering and wanting to shake your hand when you arrive at the pueblo!

Ugh...bummer, Bigshot. You can do better!

 

[PhonoPhi]

Ugh...bummer, Bigshot. You can do better!

True, and then answer the question on what exactly ESS DAC and amp he tested and could not hear any difference.

 

[bigshot]

Oppo HA-1

 

[Sonic Defender]

None of you can hear a difference in any audibly transparent DAC, which means almost every DAC made in the last 5 years, barring poor engineering/implementation. All of the new DACs from Topping, SMSL, Gustard, Schiit etc, they are all beyond totally transparent. How you people think you can hear differences is beyond me.