[118900]

Until you can show that you are actually hearing a difference, the science is going to be restricted to psychology.

So record the analogue waveforms produced by two volume matched DACs under identical circumstances? Doable.

frequency response curves alone prove there are differences between DACs.

 

[bigshot]

Line level matched, direct A/B switched blind listening test with enough trials to definitively show a pattern. Once a difference is established, then you make the test repeatable so other people can verify your results.

Can you please show me response specs for DACs that show an audible difference? Do you know what the approximate threshold of audibility is for response deviations?

 

[sonitus mirus]

So record the analogue waveforms produced by two volume matched DACs under identical circumstances? Doable.

frequency response curves alone prove there are differences between DACs.

A DAC can utilize different filters, but these are usually very subtle and quite obvious in measurements in how the frequencies are impacted. If you are seeing FR differences that could be attributed to audible differences outside of an intentional choice of filter, then maybe you are referring to a DAC/amplifier combo? A DAC that is working as intended should be relatively flat through the human hearing range. I normally choose a filter that is sharp out to 20kHz as I believe this is the most accurate, and I have no issues with pre-ringing as some would claim, yet never seem to provide any evidence to suggest they can actually identify it.

 

[118900]

Line level matched, direct A/B switched blind listening test with enough trials to definitively show a pattern. Once a difference is established, then you make the test repeatable so other people can verify your results.

Can you please show me response specs for DACs that show an audible difference? Do you know what the approximate threshold of audibility is for response deviations?

Let me do a search after dinner, need to finish my beer...

 

[bigshot]

Trappists make the best beer! My favorite is Orval.

 

[118900]

Trappists make the best beer! My favorite is Orval.

I have some other nice Trappist ones downstairs quadrupel one as well just a tad sweet though. Anyway let me get this down and then will look up FR curves although @sonitus mirus has really already answered

 

[118900]

Rob Watt's theoretical ramblings has been more than debunked in this very forum, with scientific arguments. What he really defends are a bunch of concepts with no relevance whatsoever for practical listening, starting with his theory of samples. It doesn't surprise that his DACs go from $400 to $20,000, and if I lived in US I'd be more than wiling to plan a blind test in person and to offer 20K against $50 to whom discerns any difference between his products and the Apple DAC.

Genuine ask - Could you let me have the link please? I have searched the thread and the only reference to Rob watts are my own posts and another post which doesn’t go into any details.

 

[VNandor]

Is there a pseudo-scientific argument against null-testing for analog cables?

Have you tried null testing cables? I don't think you could get a convincing null (different cable or not, it doesn't matter) by just recording the same signal twice, inverting one of them and then adding them together. The more processing you add to the signals to get a good null, the less convincing the test is going to be.

 

[Bozzunter]

Genuine ask - Could you let me have the link please? I have searched the thread and the only reference to Rob watts are my own posts and another post which doesn’t go into any details.

Sure thing man, but being an Italian who lives in Spain, I choose wine over beer.

Apart from joking, it’s already late here but I’ll surely search for it tomorrow and post here whatever I find.

 

[DuncanDirkDick]

I wouldn't really call inverting and adding dsp. The devices and plans exist and is has been done.

 

[bigshot]

I like expensive beer and cheap wine. Two buck Chuck! When I was a kid my sister lived in Napa and she would get gallon jugs of Zinfindel for a couple of bucks at the winery. It was young, thin and watery, but it was great for picnics.

 

[VNandor]

I wouldn't really call inverting and adding dsp. The devices and plans exist and is has been done.

I don't understand what you mean. You read some "plans" about null testing that doesn't invert the signal? Can you show me where it has been done before? Speaking from experience, null testing analog signals aren't easy (it seems impossible to get a convincing null without some post processing) and I would like to know how others are doing it.

 

[118900]

Sure thing man, but being an Italian who lives in Spain, I choose wine over beer.

Apart from joking, it’s already late here but I’ll surely search for it tomorrow and post here whatever I find.

Thanks very much. And I’m a Brit with Spanish origins living in Italy! so it will be a nice bottle of amarone this weekend for me

my father loved his marques de caceres from Rioja.

 

[DuncanDirkDick]

I don't understand what you mean. You read some "plans" about null testing that doesn't invert the signal? Can you show me where it has been done before? Speaking from experience, null testing analog signals aren't easy (it seems impossible to get a convincing null without some post processing) and I would like to know how others are doing it.

The schematic is literally the first hit on google. Ofc you have to invert one signal, but I wouldn't call inverting, adding and phase compensation complex DSP operations. Why don't you think you'll get a null signal? I don't get your argument. Besides it has been done, there are videos on how it has been done on yt.

 

[VNandor]

The schematic is literally the first hit on google. Ofc you have to invert one signal, but I wouldn't call inverting, adding and phase compensation complex DSP operations. Why don't you think you'll get a null signal? I don't get your argument. Besides it has been done, there are videos on how it has been done on yt.

I said there's no easy way to get a convincing null between analog signals. Looking up the schematic of some circuit and building it is not easy. I looked it up on youtube and found Ethan Winter's video on it. If someone can buy a box like that, then testing between cables is going to be fairly easy and probably convincing enough to any audiophile who isn't completely lost. Maybe someone could say that the opamp the signal goes through is somehow "not good enough" to reveal the "subtle differences" between the cables? And of course the ultimate excuse for audophiles is always that they hear the difference between their precious cables so if a test setup can't reveal it, it must be the setup that is wrong.

Anyways, the way I tried to test analog signals did not involve splitting the signal. I had to play back and record the test signal twice, which does cause some errors that don't null correctly by just properly aligning, inverting and adding the signals together.