Testing audiophile claims and myths
Apr 12, 2015 at 4:52 PM Post #4,471 of 17,336
   
... and as I posted above (with actual figures) the cost is still irrelevant. The actual premium you would have to charge for 24/192 over MP3 to cover upload bandwidth would be an extra 1%

OK, as you wish. It may hold true in the USA, it may not hold true in lots other parts of the world internet coverage is poorer. And dearer.
 
Still, what is being purchased with hirez is effectively more data, larger file. Since when a truckload should cost the same as one paperbag of "data" ?
 
Apr 12, 2015 at 4:57 PM Post #4,472 of 17,336
  OK, as you wish. It may hold true in the USA, it may not hold true in lots other parts of the world internet coverage is poorer. And dearer.

 
We are talking about upload costs to the seller here. AS ALWAYS you try to change the topic.
How many 24/192 music sellers are based outside of the US or Europe? None that I know of.
 
  Still, what is being purchased with hirez is effectively more data, larger file. Since when a truckload should cost the same as one paperbag of "data" ?

 
Since there is no audible difference and no significant cost difference. It should be treated as a format "preference" and nothing more. You can't compare digital files with tangible goods.
 
Apr 12, 2015 at 5:44 PM Post #4,473 of 17,336
   
We are talking about upload costs to the seller here. AS ALWAYS you try to change the topic.
How many 24/192 music sellers are based outside of the US or Europe? None that I know of.
 
 
Since there is no audible difference and no significant cost difference. It should be treated as a format "preference" and nothing more. You can't compare digital files with tangible goods.

I did not try to change the topic. Just present the situation as I see it. Europe is, again, FAR from being with as equal prices regarding internet as the USA - goes for upload too.
 
There is a thread here on head-fi listing most of the sources for hirez - I erronously deleted that bookmark.
 
There are quite a few in Asia - the most known and with interesting programme is e-onkyo. Some are in this link : 
https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/free-hi-res-music/
 
That there is no audible difference between  CD redbook and hirez is your conviction/claim.
 
Since when is basic version of software (say Windows - or Cats of one sort or the other ) the same price as pro level ? None of these are tangible goods either - but have a very tangible price differences.
 
PS: http://www.head-fi.org/a/list-of-lossless-and-high-res-music-flac-alac-aiff-dsd-dxd-etc-download-sites
 
Apr 12, 2015 at 5:52 PM Post #4,474 of 17,336
  I did not try to change the topic. Just present the situation as I see it. Europe is, again, FAR from being with as equal prices regarding internet as the USA - goes for upload too.

 
The location of the business is completely irrelevant anyway, as anyone is free to choose the cheapest host they can find globally.
 
 

 
Apr 12, 2015 at 5:54 PM Post #4,475 of 17,336
well, I still think bandwidth and storage-costs will be an important parameter for making a profit in the recorded music-industry of the future,where there no longer is a monopoly on distributing a physical media for the artists -
For a price of course .
 
Besides, most people couldn't care less, they are listening while riding their bike to work or whatever,
in noisy environments, often with more than crappy "headphones" -
And they are perfectly happy all the same, as long as they like the music -Just like it should be,
gear don't mean f-all when the music is crap --Good music always works, crappy gear or not ..
Just saying : most people couldn't care less about "HiFi" and the things we discuss here,
so there is no real financial incentive for the industry to spend money on the project of GB-downloads .
 
Apr 12, 2015 at 6:03 PM Post #4,476 of 17,336
  well, I still think bandwidth and storage-costs will be an important parameter for making a profit in the recorded music-industry of the future,

 
Why do you choose to ignore the writing on the wall? These costs are not significant now and continue to become even cheaper every year.
 
Apr 12, 2015 at 6:05 PM Post #4,477 of 17,336
well, I still think bandwidth and storage-costs will be an important parameter for making a profit in the recorded music-industry of the future,
where there no longer is a monopoly on distributing a physical media for the artists - For a price of course .


I'm sure cost of physical media, the packaging, and shipping/transportation are a much higher cost than storage and bandwidth for digital audio files. Way more.

As for bandwith and storage costs, it will surely lessen in the future. For instance, gotta like this graph:



I'm sure there's a similar graph for bandwith out there somewhere :)
 
Apr 12, 2015 at 6:08 PM Post #4,479 of 17,336
I'm sure cost of physical media, the packaging, and shipping/transportation are a much higher cost than storage and bandwidth for digital audio files. Way more.

As for bandwith and storage costs, it will surely lessen in the future. For instance, gotta like this graph:



I'm sure there's a similar graph for bandwith out there somewhere
smily_headphones1.gif

It holds true regarding hirez, too ...
 
Apr 12, 2015 at 8:13 PM Post #4,480 of 17,336
Speaking of large music downloads I just found someone named Exabyte on Bandcamp.
 
Don't think the files are quite that big though.
 
evil_smiley.gif

 
Apr 13, 2015 at 11:33 AM Post #4,481 of 17,336
You are quite correct - for a full ABX test there should be two or more reference samples for A and B.
 
(I am just trying to do a simple "screening" to determine "whether there's anything to test or discuss".)
 
For that matter, there should also be some sort of randomization protocol. After all, one of those "unconscious cues" I was talking about is the order in which samples are arranged. For example, when offering three glasses of soda to taste, you must mix up the order to rule out the possibility that right handed tasters tend to prefer the glass on the right - or the opposite, or that most people prefer the first sample they taste - or the last. In this case it's quite possible that both the person setting up the test and the person taking it have an unconscious preference for early tracks, or late tracks, or tracks with even numbers, or tracks with numbers evenly divisible by 3 (by letting a machine randomize the order you rule out all these possibilities). I'm assuming that the tracks will be at lest more or less mixed up and not, for example, arranged as 1-5=mat and 6-10=no-mat.
  I base my expectations - and tests that I propose - on a few simple basic facts. There are only two places in "a digital audio stream" where information is contained. The values recorded in the individual digital bits are information, and the timing with which they are presented is also information (the clock). In the case of a digital audio file, the timing is not stored on the disc or other storage medium, and so the only information is contained in the bits themselves. (This is much simpler than analog audio, where it is quite possible that there is some specific distortion or error that you don't happen to be measuring. It is also simpler than considering an entire CD player, where the mat could influence other parts of the player that are involved in the conversion process besides the data itself.) With a digital file by itself, if the bits are the same, then they are the same - and, if the files are different, then the bits must be different.
 
Honestly, with all the discussion of test protocols, I seem to have glossed over an important specific question:
 
HAVE WE DONE THESE RIPS WITH ACCURATERIP OR OTHERWISE CONFIRMED THAT WE DO IN FACT HAVE THE SAME BITS WITH AND WITHOUT THE MAT?
 
(If not, then the most obvious assumption would be that the mat is in fact altering the data - which might reasonably be audible. And, if so, it should be pretty easy to determine which is correct - with or without.)
  However, we must be careful to separate things about the digital data file from things about the file while its playing. (For example, let's assume that I put ten copies of the same file on a CD. It's possible that various instances of that track might sound different because the CD drive has more jitter on early tracks than on later tracks, or even because one area on the disc is more subject to bit errors. If I'm playing that CD player into a DAC, that extra jitter could make the early tracks sound audibly different. And, if I'm ripping that CD, it could result in more uncorrected data errors on early tracks, which might also make the ripped tracks sound different. However, if the jitter results in data errors, then the ripped tracks will contain different data, which will be obvious when we compare them. Likewise, if the jitter does not result in data errors, the I can easily demonstrate that as well - by  doing a bit compare on the files. Most modern CD ripping programs do this automatically using AccurateRIP or another similar data confirmation service. (In fact, CD players read their data through a buffer, so the data itself should have any jitter that's a result of the read process itself removed. However, it's possible, for example, that vibration from the spinning CD could introduce jitter or other distortion at the output by causing a wire somewhere to vibrate. If so, then a mat could possibly help that - or make it worse.)  
 
A lot of the claims for "cd mats" and "magic liquids" are based on some facts and assumptions that are somewhat correct - but not entirely. For example, let's say we're playing a slightly scuffed CD on a CD player. Because it's worn, the data stored on the CD actually has some bad or unreadable bits. Luckily for us, when the player reads that CD, there are two levels of digital error correction that will do their best to repair those problems. These use extra information, and some rather fancy math, to "reconstruct" the missing or garbled data. (Gaps up to about 1/8" on a single track should be perfectly corrected.) If they are successful, then the data is "new again" - it is not in any way different than the original data (this is known as "a recoverable error"). If the damage is too extensive, then most CD players have the option of "patching over the gap" with "similar data". When this happens, you may hear a tick or a pop, but, whether you notice it or not, the data is NOT the same as it was, and a simple bit compare test will show that it has changed. (Most computer CD drives lack this final correction step and will simple report a failure if they encounter an unrecoverable error - which is one reason why "audio players" will sometimes play discs that computers won't.)
 
Most mats and treatments I've read about claim to reduce the number of uncorrectable errors and/or reduce read jitter. Remember that uncorrectable errors are missing data that is replaced with interpolated "data that's sort of close" - and so we would expect them to be audible. However, you should also be aware that it is very unlikely that reducing jitter during the actual read process will affect the jitter at the output of the CD player. Virtually all CD players read the data from the disc into a buffer. Therefore, any jitter present in the read process will not be passed on to the output anyway. (However, it's theoretically possible that a high enough level of jitter in the mechanism could cause additional read errors.) The only flaw in this argument is that uncorrectable read errors are in practice VERY RARE. Of the 500+ CDs that I've ripped using my current software, which confirms every bit of every rip against the AccrateRIP database, I have seen exactly three uncorrectable errors on three individual tracks. One turned out to be a damaged disc, one went away when I reripped the disc - and so was probably dust, and one turned out to be a manufacturing flaw on the disc itself - and was present on two additional copies. Therefore, uncorrected errors would seem to be "a problem that doesn't really exist". (Of course, it's also possible that the $19 CD drive in my computer is really much better, and so has lower error rates, than the expensive audiophile players that the mats and liquids claim to improve. Likewise, it's quite possible that a solution that makes scratches optically less visible could reduce the number of unrecoverable on some few badly damaged discs. However, and this is where audiophiles seem to get confused, the fact that a given "fix" actually helps a few badly damaged discs DOES NOT suggest that it will improve ones that aren't damaged.)
 
At this point, I do want to mention one possibility that is obvious to me - but we haven't even considered yet...
 
If I rip a CD without the mat and the data from the disc is perfect (which we can tell by our AccurateRIP report), and it does sound different when we use the mat, then the most likely cause would seem to be that the mat is changing the data (and, since it was perfect to begin with, the only possibility would be that the mat is adding more errors). Luckily, if that's the case, we would be able to tell easily enough by doing a bit compare.
 
The other possibility is that, perhaps by reducing vibration or something similar, the mat makes the analog output of certain CD players sound better for some reason other than because it improves the data. However, if that's the case, then we would expect no difference in the bits of digital file rips done with it, and no difference on the sound of those files.... unless they were played on that CD player (with the mat).
 
  Quote:
   
I like the way you think.
 
If there is no real difference, the probability of getting 9 or 10 correct "by chance" is approx 1.07%.  (Per the calculator at http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx . ) 
 
For a full ABX, shouldn't there also be one labeled reference copy for "no matt" and one labeled reference copy for "fancy matt" ?

 
Apr 13, 2015 at 11:56 AM Post #4,482 of 17,336
I would also remind everyone that ALL FFT displays are a representation of what's present in the audio. Not all FFT displays are entirely accurate, and FFT analysis in general is very prone to various artifacts - especially if you make incorrect or less-than-optimal choices in your display parameters. So, if you see something unexpected or odd in an FFT display, I would advise you to confirm it with a different program, or at least on a different range or scale on the current program, just to rule out it's being simply an artifact of the particular program and configuration you're using - unless you are VERY familiar with the capabilities, limitations, and quirks of the program you're using.
 
REAL TIME conversion can be amazingly processor intensive. However, it's very easy to see if that's what's going on. Simply do the conversion as a file conversion first, then play the converted file. This will gain you several things. First, it will rule out any issues due to the processor load from doing the conversion in real time. Second, many conversion programs, in order to prevent such issues, use a "lower quality mode" when doing on-the-fly conversions, or don't offer you some of the "heavier" options. Therefore, it's quite possible that you'll get a better quality conversion or be offered more options if you use a file-to-file conversion. (Even beyond basic "processing power" issues, there are other problems that can be caused by real-time processing in general, which can be as simple as a computer having trouble reading from a USB stick that happens to be plugged into the same internal USB hub as the DAC, or graphics interrupts from the conversion program interfering with the real time data stream.)
 
Quote:
  You are correct - converting DSD file to PCM file and then playing back should not result in any such increase of noise - it will just take so much longer to convert.
 
REAL TIME converting and playing  (from DSD to PCM, as in Korg Audiogate - or vice versa in jRiver19 , for example ) or so called converting in the fly IS another matter. jRiver specifies PRECISELY
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Windows_System_Requirements
how much computing power you got to have
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=54396.0
in order to use the software in full measure - and will stutter, noise and hiccup if it is not met. 
 
FFT IS more demanding than just simple playback of 192/24. For those who think this is another audiophile myth, load Foobar2000 and start using graphic features like VU meter, spectrogram, etc, etc - and you should reach a point, sooner or later, when things will start sliding downhill.
 
Except if you have infinite computer power.

 
Apr 13, 2015 at 12:16 PM Post #4,483 of 17,336

All valid and good suggestions.
 
But, in that FFT noise "appearing out of nowhere", one can not do that. The input is already a "preconverted" file, it needs not to be converted from one file type to any other type file on the fly - it is 96/24 from Linn. "All" it has to perform is FFT - and it STILL noises. 
 
Be as it may, AFTER I have my PC back in order, I will install that FFT software - and can only pray my hardware is fast/powerful enough . On that Atom processor powered netbook the ONLY thing that could run smoothly was Korg Audiogate 2.x.y with DSD128 FILES - forget anything else, like internet, any video etc running at the same time.
What I have now is 2-3-4 ? times better, question remains - will it be enough to run FFT at 196/24(98display) mode ?
 
I have seen, many times, PCs that should be capable of running the task(s) according to minimum system requirements. Only to find out that those minimum system requirements are gross underestimation for real life performance... - and a substantially "bigger" computer is required in real life.
 
Apr 13, 2015 at 1:26 PM Post #4,485 of 17,336
  With 2 different analyzers.. the same recording as before 96/24 from ECM...
 
any suggestions of where this large spike come from?
 
this begins with the ending of file then to the beginning... both very silent passages...
 
could it be a mosquito repellent? as someone suggested?

 
If it's an active ultrasonic source recorded by the mics then I'd guess a motion detector for turning off lights after everyone leaves the room.  It could also be an artifact caused defective gear in the signal chain at the time of recording or introduced during the mixing.
 
While we're back on this on the subject, this is another potential downside of high res music playback.  It's entirely possible (though admittedly unlikely) that a large enough ultrasonic spike in a high sample rate music file could blow your tweeters without giving any audible warning.  It's a pretty small risk, but there's no reason to take it since you can't hear ultrasound anyway.
 

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