[Chris J]

Much appreciated, cheers.

I forgot to mention.......for a while I was using 2,000 Ohm headphones with a 150 W/ch (rated @ 8 Ohms) power amp.
I had no problems, no hiss, and like you, I was careful with the volume control.
The headphones sounded very good BTW!
Cheers.

 

[camusmuse]

Part One...
So in your opinion, do the "super" high impedance phones "sound" better: do you have a good baseline to judge that from(a similar pair with lower, more common impedance)?
 
I ask because I have the 80 ohm version of the Beyers and though I know that the 250 ohm isnt that much of a difference it is still a difference.  I had originally bought the 80ohm version as I had no headphone amp, and wanted to make sure it would play loud enough with my OEM Zpreheadphone output, as well as be "acceptable" on my Galaxy S4...which they are...but kill battery life for sure. No dedicated portable amp or dac, just the phone....
 
Should I "waste" my time with my 80 ohm, or save my pennies for the 250ohm?  ...or is this a question better asked in a Beyer specific forum?  I find that the knowledge requisite to properly set up a speaker amp to headphone correctly important to the 80ohm vs 250ohm argument, and was hoping for some further insight here if that is alright.
 
Part Two...
I have been looking at some of the super cheap "knock offs" of the beyers and several others. I plan to get some, just to experiment with really, but would like to know if anyone had any "current" suggestions for good "donor" drivers specific to "speaker amps" or even decent whole package headphones that have a good modding platform. I am following one of the larger threads on this forum about these particular headphones.  Again the impedance comes into play as most I have seen have been even less than my 80ohm Beyers.
 
Part Three...
Sorry for another goofy idea, but I was thinking...dangerous I know..., again about impedance matching.  Technically at 80ohms I can get it down to 10 ohms nominal with (10) pairs of headphones wired in parallel sets, right?  I know this is not apparently practical for the home enthusiast...unless they are throwing a headphone party and needs a way to drive ten pairs of headphones(even if they dont match)...and would have to have "dummy" loads come in when the headphone "jack" was removed from the "breakout box" to make it match even with just one pair plugged in. 
 
Would I encounter any SQ problems running that many cans at once?  Phasing seems to be an obvious choice, but I dont know if it would really matter since they are headphones and "individual in use"...if that makes sense.  Hope this doesnt splash too much, just looking for further functionality out of my soon to be setup and want to know if its worth building that kind of breakout box now for multiple sets of headphones. 
 
Thanks everyone, all productive info greatly appreciated...even the critical, as long as helps....

 

[Chris J]

Part One...
So in your opinion, do the "super" high impedance phones "sound" better: do you have a good baseline to judge that from(a similar pair with lower, more common impedance)?

I ask because I have the 80 ohm version of the Beyers and though I know that the 250 ohm isnt that much of a difference it is still a difference.  I had originally bought the 80ohm version as I had no headphone amp, and wanted to make sure it would play loud enough with my OEM Zpreheadphone output, as well as be "acceptable" on my Galaxy S4...which they are...but kill battery life for sure. No dedicated portable amp or dac, just the phone....

Should I "waste" my time with my 80 ohm, or save my pennies for the 250ohm?  ...or is this a question better asked in a Beyer specific forum?  I find that the knowledge requisite to properly set up a speaker amp to headphone correctly important to the 80ohm vs 250ohm argument, and was hoping for some further insight here if that is alright.

Part Two...
I have been looking at some of the super cheap "knock offs" of the beyers and several others. I plan to get some, just to experiment with really, but would like to know if anyone had any "current" suggestions for good "donor" drivers specific to "speaker amps" or even decent whole package headphones that have a good modding platform. I am following one of the larger threads on this forum about these particular headphones.  Again the impedance comes into play as most I have seen have been even less than my 80ohm Beyers.

Part Three...
Sorry for another goofy idea, but I was thinking...dangerous I know..., again about impedance matching.  Technically at 80ohms I can get it down to 10 ohms nominal with (10) pairs of headphones wired in parallel sets, right?  I know this is not apparently practical for the home enthusiast...unless they are throwing a headphone party and needs a way to drive ten pairs of headphones(even if they dont match)...and would have to have "dummy" loads come in when the headphone "jack" was removed from the "breakout box" to make it match even with just one pair plugged in. 

Would I encounter any SQ problems running that many cans at once?  Phasing seems to be an obvious choice, but I dont know if it would really matter since they are headphones and "individual in use"...if that makes sense.  Hope this doesnt splash too much, just looking for further functionality out of my soon to be setup and want to know if its worth building that kind of breakout box now for multiple sets of headphones. 

Thanks everyone, all productive info greatly appreciated...even the critical, as long as helps....:bigsmile_face:

LOL!
I only used the 2,000 Ohm headphones with the power amp because they were a pair of headphones that I did not mind modifying for use with a "bridged" output power amp.
Those particular headphones are Sennheiser HD424, they were discontinued well over 20 years ago!

Best check out the Beyer DT880 if you want opinions on whether 32 Ohm's is better than 250 Ohms or 600 Ohm or vice versa.

A power amp should not have any troubles running a pile of 80 Ohm headphones if you want to parallel 10 at once.
You should be able to plug and unplug various headphones without adding a substitute load or interfering with the other 'phones.

Cheers!

 

[Sonic Defender]

I forgot to mention.......for a while I was using 2,000 Ohm headphones with a 150 W/ch (rated @ 8 Ohms) power amp.
I had no problems, no hiss, and like you, I was careful with the volume control.
The headphones sounded very good BTW!
Cheers.

Thanks again mate, I am very much looking forward to using my M3 with the HE 560. Big fat power supplies should provide a rock solid feed to the headphones. Now whether or not that results in any audible improvements is up for debate and remains to be seen, but as an absolute minimum I will get to use a remote control which is uber convenient for sure as I often have to adjust the gain as I move around my music collection. Cheers. 

 

[camusmuse]

LOL!
I only used the 2,000 Ohm headphones with the power amp because they were a pair of headphones that I did not mind modifying for use with a "bridged" output power amp.
Those particular headphones are Sennheiser HD424, they were discontinued well over 20 years ago!

Best check out the Beyer DT880 if you want opinions on whether 32 Ohm's is better than 250 Ohms or 600 Ohm or vice versa.

A power amp should not have any troubles running a pile of 80 Ohm headphones if you want to parallel 10 at once.
You should be able to plug and unplug various headphones without adding a substitute load or interfering with the other 'phones.

Cheers!

Thanks..."discontinued" just means searching a little longer...lol.  So I take it there wasnt really that much sonic beneifit?
 
Well I chose the 770 because it is closed back and isolates pretty good both inside and out: from what I know the 880 is a "semi open' design.  As I share a "workspace" sometimes, it is *critical* that I have closed cans(WAF among top reasons..she hates my open Grados)...lol. Though admittedly I have not heard any other "decent" headphones in quite some time, I am content with the Beyer "stock" sound platform for now and look forward to many, many mods to come....
 
The 880s are ironically the ones that I am considering getting the wife right now in "knock-off" form(and for me to mod with "reckless abandon" of course...heh). I know this goes against my previous statement about not getting the 880 due to their semiopen nature, but the price is just too good to pass up....plus *from what I have read*, mostly here on Head-Fi many drivers can be used in both open and closed.  Being the nut I am I  was thinking of maybe trying some sort of aperiodic enclosure beyond just foam or felt...have to see what I have lying around....

I'm trying to get her into the hobby some as she does enjoy/tolerate....lol, my SQ and the HT systems, but isnt quite sold on the "big clunky headphones"....yet...they work great for TV too...especially late at night.  We did take a large step in the right direction just now though as I nearly forced her to listen to a few songs I know she likes on my freshly modded DT770s; and after a few more songs she wasnt giving them back too easily....lol.  She finally caved under clamping pressure...lol, I prefer it pretty tight.  She soon mentioned how she was mad now because she wanted a pair(she just cant believe I spent THAT much on *headphones*($179 shipped NIB)...yeah,I know....I could of spent much, MUCH more...lol; but her $20 pair of POS headphones have worked "just fine" for years, and she never uses them anyway cause they hurt her ears too much!...yeah...dont ask, just nod)...lol.  If I could find a good set 250ohm or even the now defunct 600ohm 770s, I think it would be interesting to do some comparisons, and she could take over the 80s, but my budget is closer to the knock offs unless I find a smokin' deal on some higher impedance cans.
 
The mods you asked???....Sure I would love to tell you about them...lol....I will spare everyone the pics this time though....
 
I just finished converting stock 770/80 to a detachable 4pinMiniXLR(one side only like "stock" setup(I even cheated and used the stock wire to the other speaker over the headband...will switch it eventually though)...I really like the single side wire connect for "confort"/ease of movement, though technically the lengths of the wires are now different as the over the head run is longer by 8 inches or whatever( not "balanced" in any way shape or form....lol).  I thought about coiling up the same amount of wire in the "connector" side can, but decided that was a "bit much" and could even affect the sound by changing the internal volume of the closed driver.  Plus figured I could add the "extra" wire on the amp side by staggering the wiring to the terminals as needed to get the overall lengths the same.  Does it matter?  Probably not at all, or at the most be very insignificant for such a small difference in length... but hey...I can say I tried and gave my setup the best environment possible to "flourish".
 
Just started using my own four conductor custom terminated cable(4pXLR to 4pMXLR w/CANARE L-4E6S STAR QUAD), and my "cheapo" XLR to SE 1/8" jack "adaptor" cable(grounds tied) for the three wire headphone out from the Zpre.  Even from the that same source as before, it sounds much better than the OEM cable.
 
I'm really in a kind of disbelief myself.  I have been playing with wires on speaker setups for decades, never have I heard such a difference.  I know that it isnt just in my head either(well I guess technically it is in my head...and now here....lol), but there are specific tracks I know VERY well, and I can now much better locate individuals in the soundstage and the over all tone has changed as well more detailed midrange.  Additionally the noise floor seems to be much less "pronounced" in some tracks, which could be due to the shielding on the Canare cable.  Less noise lets the nuances of well recorded material shine...
 
So now that I am back to square one(still listening through the ZPre not the CJ tube speaker amp...yet; albeit with my new "magical" cable

), it is time to cut some aluminum square tubing to make my "first" resistor network....It will just run "inline" between the headphone cable and the speaker out xlr plug with surface mount XLR plugs in each end of the 7/8"(or so) square tubing(one male one female so they can only go one way). 
 
Any opinions if that "enclosure" would help, hurt, or just plain have nothing to do with rejecting the same noise that the braided shielding is supposed to do???  ...I know the aluminum would at least electrically connect the shields, but would it still work right, or even cause problems being of a different metal than the rest of the shield?  I dont want to work backwards from and have my niftly little idea for "bar stock" resistor networks cause more noise than is tolerable.  My Speaker load resistor has its own aluminum heat sink surrounding the unit.  I figure I can mount it to the inside of my metal resistor enclosure and access holes would act like thermal vents. 
 
 
As for adding the resistance to my headphone version of Medusa....lol, I thought it might help keep the sound the same in the headphones regardless of how many are hooked up...again, just kind of a silly thought, that I have floating around as I work on my "speaker selector" and see if I can use it to access any number of amps that I might want to use..is tubes for acoustic, and SS for EDM...its all about flexibility.....

  right?
 
Soon the CJ, then I have to pick a SS amp...too many to chose from....from there I would would have two more "inputs" for the backwards speaker selector and was thinking of someday doing a Kit tube amp/dac...but that is way down the road.....
 
Thanks again everyone.....my apologies for the ramble....heh...

 

[Chris J]

Thanks..."discontinued" just means searching a little longer...lol.  So I take it there wasnt really that much sonic beneifit?

Well I chose the 770 because it is closed back and isolates pretty good both inside and out: from what I know the 880 is a "semi open' design.  As I share a "workspace" sometimes, it is *critical* that I have closed cans(WAF among top reasons..she hates my open Grados)...lol. Though admittedly I have not heard any other "decent" headphones in quite some time, I am content with the Beyer "stock" sound platform for now and look forward to many, many mods to come....

The 880s are ironically the ones that I am considering getting the wife right now in "knock-off" form(and for me to mod with "reckless abandon" of course...heh). I know this goes against my previous statement about not getting the 880 due to their semiopen nature, but the price is just too good to pass up....plus *from what I have read*, mostly here on Head-Fi many drivers can be used in both open and closed.  Being the nut I am I  was thinking of maybe trying some sort of aperiodic enclosure beyond just foam or felt...have to see what I have lying around....:veryevil: I'm trying to get her into the hobby some as she does enjoy/tolerate....lol, my SQ and the HT systems, but isnt quite sold on the "big clunky headphones"....yet...they work great for TV too...especially late at night.  We did take a large step in the right direction just now though as I nearly forced her to listen to a few songs I know she likes on my freshly modded DT770s; and after a few more songs she wasnt giving them back too easily....lol.  She finally caved under clamping pressure...lol, I prefer it pretty tight.  She soon mentioned how she was mad now because she wanted a pair(she just cant believe I spent THAT much on *headphones*($179 shipped NIB)...yeah,I know....I could of spent much, MUCH more...lol; but her $20 pair of POS headphones have worked "just fine" for years, and she never uses them anyway cause they hurt her ears too much!...yeah...dont ask, just nod)...lol.  If I could find a good set 250ohm or even the now defunct 600ohm 770s, I think it would be interesting to do some comparisons, and she could take over the 80s, but my budget is closer to the knock offs unless I find a smokin' deal on some higher impedance cans.

The mods you asked???....Sure I would love to tell you about them...lol....I will spare everyone the pics this time though....

I just finished converting stock 770/80 to a detachable 4pinMiniXLR(one side only like "stock" setup(I even cheated and used the stock wire to the other speaker over the headband...will switch it eventually though)...I really like the single side wire connect for "confort"/ease of movement, though technically the lengths of the wires are now different as the over the head run is longer by 8 inches or whatever( not "balanced" in any way shape or form....lol).  I thought about coiling up the same amount of wire in the "connector" side can, but decided that was a "bit much" and could even affect the sound by changing the internal volume of the closed driver.  Plus figured I could add the "extra" wire on the amp side by staggering the wiring to the terminals as needed to get the overall lengths the same.  Does it matter?  Probably not at all, or at the most be very insignificant for such a small difference in length... but hey...I can say I tried and gave my setup the best environment possible to "flourish".

Just started using my own four conductor custom terminated cable(4pXLR to 4pMXLR w/CANARE L-4E6S STAR QUAD), and my "cheapo" XLR to SE 1/8" jack "adaptor" cable(grounds tied) for the three wire headphone out from the Zpre.  Even from the that same source as before, it sounds much better than the OEM cable.

I'm really in a kind of disbelief myself.  I have been playing with wires on speaker setups for decades, never have I heard such a difference.  I know that it isnt just in my head either(well I guess technically it is in my head...and now here....lol), but there are specific tracks I know VERY well, and I can now much better locate individuals in the soundstage and the over all tone has changed as well more detailed midrange.  Additionally the noise floor seems to be much less "pronounced" in some tracks, which could be due to the shielding on the Canare cable.  Less noise lets the nuances of well recorded material shine...

So now that I am back to square one(still listening through the ZPre not the CJ tube speaker amp...yet; albeit with my new "magical" cable:rolleyes: ), it is time to cut some aluminum square tubing to make my "first" resistor network....It will just run "inline" between the headphone cable and the speaker out xlr plug with surface mount XLR plugs in each end of the 7/8"(or so) square tubing(one male one female so they can only go one way). 

Any opinions if that "enclosure" would help, hurt, or just plain have nothing to do with rejecting the same noise that the braided shielding is supposed to do???  ...I know the aluminum would at least electrically connect the shields, but would it still work right, or even cause problems being of a different metal than the rest of the shield?  I dont want to work backwards from and have my niftly little idea for "bar stock" resistor networks cause more noise than is tolerable.  My Speaker load resistor has its own aluminum heat sink surrounding the unit.  I figure I can mount it to the inside of my metal resistor enclosure and access holes would act like thermal vents. 


As for adding the resistance to my headphone version of Medusa....lol, I thought it might help keep the sound the same in the headphones regardless of how many are hooked up...again, just kind of a silly thought, that I have floating around as I work on my "speaker selector" and see if I can use it to access any number of amps that I might want to use..is tubes for acoustic, and SS for EDM...its all about flexibility.....   right?

Soon the CJ, then I have to pick a SS amp...too many to chose from....from there I would would have two more "inputs" for the backwards speaker selector and was thinking of someday doing a Kit tube amp/dac...but that is way down the road.....

Thanks again everyone.....my apologies for the ramble....heh...

The 2,000 Ohm Sennheiser HD424 was a good headphone for it's time, but it is only an OK sounding headphone in 2014.
It is somewhat bright and grainy sounding.

 

[camusmuse]

So I take it(and obviously and selfishly havent searched), that there arent too many ultra high impedance headphones available today?  ...if there were, there would probably be little reason to "chase" a pair.... specifically related to using speaker amps.
 
Finally got the CJ tube amp hooked up, and....PRESTO!!!... its got a bad tube and needs to be retubed and rebiased...sigh(at least I have a matched quad waiting on the shelf), it worked last month when I gave it a little work out on some custom speakers, so I know it worked before(yes, tried regular speakers first...no go).  Oh well, I was actually using a Parasound HCA-855a five channel speaker amp as a stand(on its side) for the SoundStream and my second monitor on top of that...so I just plugged it in and turned down each channel's individual volume controls(very useful).  Have yet to find the sweet spot between the volume on my Zpre and the 855a, have yet to care as it sounds even better, but it is obvious to me that I am quickly reaching the point of diminishing returns on this current system.  
 
Will need a significant HP upgrade; I have built electrostat speakers many years ago.  I always wanted to do a OTL tube amp for custom stat heaphones; though high voltage AND high current wrapped around my noggin kinda scared me so I shelved the idea.  But...I still have a stash of HV trans, and some schematics somewhere; so I may go that route eventually.  Definitely need to get the cabling right for that one....lol. 
 
I would *like* to stay dynamic(and closed), but there seems to be a huge price jump from my ever so humble 770s and some of the "reference" cans floating around.  I have not heard any in decades, and even then it was to "work on", not critically listen.  Basic recable on a pair of "MB Quart" cans that had a goofy, probably proprietary, connector and less than stellar wire; never did figure out the OEM on that model, but they did sound pretty damn good, at least as good or better than my 770s...and that was with an old Pioneer HP section.  Wish I would of run those on the speaker taps with resistance networks....live and learn.....
 
Although I love the functionality and ease of use of my current setup, the Zpre and both DACs will be replaced(or modded...lol)....  One of the nicest features, I can watch/listen to whatever is on the HT/TV through my 770's, and have my own volume control.  Granted this is a temporary setup...but I still like the basic architecture and will try to incorporate it when I "upgrade" components.  This unit will travel from living room to kitchen to fireplace room *eventually*.....
 
The HCA-855a is a beastly little 85wattsx5 and I have thought of using the other three channels for a stereo satellite/mono sub system as this is actually my portable "Media Station".  Its mounted to an old office chair with stacked docking stations for a couple laptops and pivoting dual monitors...still under construction; but "functional" for now....
 
So, I have some amp rolling to do....and some repair.....ugh....lol.  Hopefully its just a bad tube, this one has never been opened...so yeah...time to give a good once over probably replacing some caps.  Glad I caught it before it headed out to the chopping block....

 

[davidsh]

I guess you know about wacharas DIY electrostat thread?

 

[camusmuse]

Nope, but thanks for the heads up...I have few other threads that I am reading though; trying to catch myself up...but will add that to the list.  Really dont need another project right now, and I am content with current setup...though it is a bit noisy ATM. Also have some dirty drivers, pet hair... been fighting it since I got these, even keep them in the "bag" they came in.  Hard to fight two cats and a mid size dog....

 

[Tachikoma]

I've finally gotten my Pioneer M-22 serviced, and my word, the noise floor on this thing is ridiculous. I hear no background noise whatsoever on my Thunderpants, and I can only hear radio pickup (there's a radio tower beaming directly at me) through my very sensitive Samsung IEMs. I don't have a suitable reference to compare to as far the sound goes, but it sounds very good to me.

 

[wuwhere]

  I've finally gotten my Pioneer M-22 serviced, and my word, the noise floor on this thing is ridiculous. I hear no background noise whatsoever on my Thunderpants, and I can only hear radio pickup (there's a radio tower beaming directly at me) through my very sensitive Samsung IEMs. I don't have a suitable reference to compare to as far the sound goes, but it sounds very good to me.

 
Nice amp that Pioneer M-22.
 

 

[Chris J]

I've finally gotten my Pioneer M-22 serviced, and my word, the noise floor on this thing is ridiculous. I hear no background noise whatsoever on my Thunderpants, and I can only hear radio pickup (there's a radio tower beaming directly at me) through my very sensitive Samsung IEMs. I don't have a suitable reference to compare to as far the sound goes, but it sounds very good to me.

The M-22 is a nice looking piece of gear!
30 Watts/ch of Class A power...nice!

 

[Sonic Defender]

Finally pulled the trigger and have gotten Trevor at Norne Audio to make me a speaker tap cable from his Draug 2 series. While I am a skeptic in terms of believing that a cable can actually make an audible difference, I do hope I am wrong. I will be setting up a blind test soon after getting the cable as for a week anyway I will be keeping my A18 headphone amp, and it can work with both cables so I can go between the stock 560 cable, and the Norne. Now I will have my friend do it and I will be blindfolded and wear some kind of clothing item to ensure that I can't feel the cable at all so there will be no clues.
 
Anyway, for me the cable is being done as I need a speaker tap anyway so just in case I will have something made that looks good and should certainly sound nice as well. If all goes well I will sell my A18 and the cost of the cable will be covered that way. I'm excited to hear what all the fuss is about, but I have to admit, my instincts tell me there will be no difference between cables. Now between amps, that is a different story, I am very hopeful my NAD M3 will prove to be the better amp.

 

[robrob]

During the blind test have your assistant place the phones over your head from behind and do enough repetitions to make the results meaningful. I would suggest at least 10 tries and guess correct > 75% because random chance will get you to 50%. If true double blind tests were required for all new audio gear claims the industry would collapse.

 

[Sonic Defender]

  During the blind test have your assistant place the phones over your head from behind and do enough repetitions to make the results meaningful. I would suggest at least 10 tries and guess correct > 75% because random chance will get you to 50%. If true double blind tests were required for all new audio gear claims the industry would collapse.

10 times sounds like a good number. I am somewhat worried as I have heard horror stories about the robustness of those HiFi Man connectors and that in general you should just leave the cable attached. Anyway, 10 or 20 trials shouldn't be an issue. I will be sure to have the headphones put on in such a way to "blind" me to the cable.