[Sonic Defender]

Thanks Bill, I would have Trevor at Norne make me the adapter. I'm just struggling between adding the Z7 (stock, no modding) versus the ZMF Vibro.

 

[Bill-P]

If my memories of the ZMF Vibro is as reliable as it is... (please note: last time I auditioned it was months ago), then the stock Z7 won't hold a candle.
 
In fact, stock Z7 is only really a good headphone in comparison to something like the Beats by Dre Pro IMO. There are some headphones around the $200 - $300 that can cleanly beat it in just about everything, except for bass, ergonomics, and comfort. If you're into that.
 
For me, the stock Z7 sounded like it had potential, that's why I modded it. Otherwise, I would have pushed it to the used market within seconds. Sony missed the mark by quite a huge margin IMO.
 
If I see them at CanJam, I won't hesitate to tell them that they could have tuned the Z7 to be much better than how it was before... even at the risks of presenting myself as extremely arrogant. I would take the risks so that Sony will rethink their strategies and think of making a much better headphone... because I know they are fully capable of that.

 

[jmsaxon69]

I think the Z7 does a great job at what it does.  If you want something super revealing and lifeless, it is not for you.  If you want something lush and laid back to listen to them it is what you are looking for.  It has great depth and imaging as well in my opinion.  You don't think Sony designed that ear cup to do exactly what they wanted it to do? You don't think they played with or thought about lining the cups with absorption or diffusion  materials? Are you so sure your moded Z7 are "better"?  I don't know you so maybe you do have an audio engineering degree or have designed some great headphones. But yes, it is arrogant to tell Sony their $500 headphone isn't as good as YOU think it should be.

 

[longboy]

Is there a headphone that's *not* a "niche headphone"? Isn't *every* headphone not a "niche headphone"? Has anyone else ever suggested that there exists a single, general-purpose headphone that satisfies the needs - or, better, the *preferences*! - of all music-lovers, from dorm room to listening room?
 
In the words of Homey The Clown, "I don't think so!"

 

[Sonic Defender]

Hey Bill, do you think the ZMF makes a nice compliment to the HE 560? I just want a nice closed can sound signature that is engaging and full. I was quite focused on the Z7 as 70mm drivers can really move some air. Thanks Bill.

 

[Mink]

  If my memories of the ZMF Vibro is as reliable as it is... (please note: last time I auditioned it was months ago), then the stock Z7 won't hold a candle.
 
In fact, stock Z7 is only really a good headphone in comparison to something like the Beats by Dre Pro IMO. There are some headphones around the $200 - $300 that can cleanly beat it in just about everything, except for bass, ergonomics, and comfort. If you're into that.
 
For me, the stock Z7 sounded like it had potential, that's why I modded it. Otherwise, I would have pushed it to the used market within seconds. Sony missed the mark by quite a huge margin IMO.
 
If I see them at CanJam, I won't hesitate to tell them that they could have tuned the Z7 to be much better than how it was before... even at the risks of presenting myself as extremely arrogant. I would take the risks so that Sony will rethink their strategies and think of making a much better headphone... because I know they are fully capable of that.

Out of curiosity, how long have you listened to the stock Z7s before you decided to mod them?
And with what reference in mind? A pair of headphones you like? Your sense/idea of what a neutral pair of headphones sound like?
 
To me the quest for ultimate neutrality is pointless, because my ears do not always perceive sound the same way. It differs from day to day. Just a very simple illustration: at days the Denons initially can sound too bright, maybe because my ears haven't registered much yet, because it has been a very quiet day. (Do ears need gymnastics?  
From a different view:  my ears may be more sensitive or may be more numb to some frequencies, that doesn't mean the headphones are tuned wrongly.
Recessed mids or forward mids? Both can sound natural, true to life. 
All my pairs of headphones can sound right and wrong at times. I don't think I will ever find a pair of headphones that will sound right all of the time.
 
But I don't doubt that your modded Z7s sound superior to your ears.

 

[Sonic Defender]

  Out of curiosity, how long have you listened to the stock Z7s before you decided to mod them?
And with what reference in mind? A pair of headphones you like? Your sense/idea of what a neutral pair of headphones sound like?
 
To me the quest for ultimate neutrality is pointless, because my ears do not always perceive sound the same way. It differs from day to day. Just a very simple illustration: at days the Denons initially can sound too bright, maybe because my ears haven't registered much yet, because it has been a very quiet day. (Do ears need gymnastics?  
From a different view:  my ears may be more sensitive or may be more numb to some frequencies, that doesn't mean the headphones are tuned wrongly.
Recessed mids or forward mids? Both can sound natural, true to life. 
All my pairs of headphones can sound right and wrong at times. I don't think I will ever find a pair of headphones that will sound right all of the time.
 
But I don't doubt that your modded Z7s sound superior to your ears.

Agree with you, true neutrality is a moving target in a perceptual sense and for certain my perception changes throughout the day. Bill is a knowledgeable dude who loves to tinker and mod, but he does know what he is talking about. All of this said, everything is subjective so we need to keep that in mind. 

 

[Bill-P]

  Out of curiosity, how long have you listened to the stock Z7s before you decided to mod them?
And with what reference in mind? A pair of headphones you like? Your sense/idea of what a neutral pair of headphones sound like?
 
To me the quest for ultimate neutrality is pointless, because my ears do not always perceive sound the same way. It differs from day to day. Just a very simple illustration: at days the Denons initially can sound too bright, maybe because my ears haven't registered much yet, because it has been a very quite day. (Do ears need gymnastics?  
From a different view:  my ears may be more sensitive or may be more numb to some frequencies, that doesn't mean the headphones are tuned wrongly.
Recessed mids or forward mids? Both can sound natural, true to life. 
All my pairs of headphones can sound right and wrong at times. I don't think I will ever find a pair of headphones that will sound right all of the time.
 
But I don't doubt that your modded Z7s sound superior to your ears.

I listened to the stock Z7 for 7 days. I let all of my school mates and some instructors try them on as well. I also let them audition the Z7 in a direct comparison against my HE-560. ALL of them preferred the HE-560 by far. At everything. It was not my "sense of what a neutral pair" is. In fact, it wasn't even about neutrality. The stock Z7 tuning was just the worst, IMO, at presenting a wide genre of music. It can get pretty good, but it's still below other headphones at its price point. (the HE-560 is only $200 more than the Z7 when the Z7 is at $700)
 
And beyond that, I do have a frequency response measurement system to at least give me an idea of what's going on, and how my ears are hearing it. I don't chase after perfect neutrality, but I have found, personally, that when I tune a headphone toward a flatter frequency response (as I measure it), that I tend to like it more than when there are odd dips and peaks. And the Z7 definitely has its dips and peaks that I don't like.
 
For instance, there is a peak that I measured to be around 7-9KHz, and my ears are very sensitive to that region. I think (someone partially confirmed this with their own measurement) that I can detect as low as a 0.5dB change in that region. So anything that's "odd" there will stand out for me.
 
I didn't hear the stock Z7 the way it was described, by the way. I heard it as: bloated bass, too blurry, too bunched up. Midrange too warm, too forward, lacking positional and directional information. Soundstage is wide but not deep, instruments are bunched up, and the mid treble peak makes it brighter than a number of headphones I have listened to. In comparison, the HE-560 was (and is) smoother, more relaxing, with a deeper soundstage, with better separation, contrast between instruments, with vocals that are not too warm or too forward, and with good quantity, quality, and extension of bass. This doesn't have much to do with it being open-back, either, because to me, the HE-560 sounds even darker with a lack of any mid treble peak, or any peak for that matter. The HE-560 definitely sounds much more laid-back and relaxed than the Z7.
 
I'm not trying to undermine your preference of the Z7, of course. But I'm pointing out: it's not for everyone. And Sony is fully capable of making it better, or "for everyone". They simply chose not to.

 

[ButtUglyJeff]

  I'm close to getting a Z7, but truthfully they sound like despite all their purported technical appointments they fall short in some significant areas. I am also considering a ZMF Vibro which sounds to be very good from what I have read. Between the two o them I am starting to lean toward the ZMF.

 
The ZMF Vibros and Blackwoods are both lovely headphones.  They are even darker then the Z7s  I've always been fond of T50RP variants, and Zach doesn't disappoint.  I'd personally suggest the Blackwoods over the Vibros for its extended sound, and tonally more evenness.  But if punchier/heavier bass is what you're after, then go Vibros
 
But both headphones didn't grow on me the same way my Z7's did.  The blobs started to come together, and made more since every listen.  I've never had a pair of headphones change and mature more then these Sony offerings...
 
Both choices are great.  I'm sure either will make a great companion...

 

[Mink]

 
I listened to the stock Z7 for 7 days. I let all of my school mates and some instructors try them on as well. I also let them audition the Z7 in a direct comparison against my HE-560. ALL of them preferred the HE-560 by far. At everything. It was not my "sense of what a neutral pair" is. In fact, it wasn't even about neutrality. The stock Z7 tuning was just the worst, IMO, at presenting a wide genre of music. It can get pretty good, but it's still below other headphones at its price point. (the HE-560 is only $200 more than the Z7 when the Z7 is at $700)
 
And beyond that, I do have a frequency response measurement system to at least give me an idea of what's going on, and how my ears are hearing it. I don't chase after perfect neutrality, but I have found, personally, that when I tune a headphone toward a flatter frequency response (as I measure it), that I tend to like it more than when there are odd dips and peaks. And the Z7 definitely has its dips and peaks that I don't like.
 
For instance, there is a peak that I measured to be around 7-9KHz, and my ears are very sensitive to that region. I think (someone partially confirmed this with their own measurement) that I can detect as low as a 0.5dB change in that region. So anything that's "odd" there will stand out for me.
 
I didn't hear the stock Z7 the way it was described, by the way. I heard it as: bloated bass, too blurry, too bunched up. Midrange too warm, too forward, lacking positional and directional information. Soundstage is wide but not deep, instruments are bunched up, and the mid treble peak makes it brighter than a number of headphones I have listened to. In comparison, the HE-560 was (and is) smoother, more relaxing, with a deeper soundstage, with better separation, contrast between instruments, with vocals that are not too warm or too forward, and with good quantity, quality, and extension of bass. This doesn't have much to do with it being open-back, either, because to me, the HE-560 sounds even darker with a lack of any mid treble peak, or any peak for that matter. The HE-560 definitely sounds much more laid-back and relaxed than the Z7.
 
I'm not trying to undermine your preference of the Z7, of course. But I'm pointing out: it's not for everyone. And Sony is fully capable of making it better, or "for everyone". They simply chose not to.
 

 
Thanks, that makes sense
I agree with the mid treble peak. And yes, the peak at the 7khz-9khz region as well, at times I can perceive a slight hissing sound, something they have in common with my Audio Technica A900Xs and my previous A500s.
But I can live with it...maybe not if I had paid $700 for them? I don't know

 

[Bill-P]

  Thanks, that makes sense
I agree with the mid treble peak. And yes, the peak at the 7khz-9khz region as well, at times I can perceive a slight hissing sound, something they have in common with my Audio Technica A900Xs and my previous A500s.
But I can live with it...maybe not if I had paid $700 for them? I don't know

 
 
Yeah... I put the Z7 on for the first time and went... "What? This is "dark"? People must really have not heard "dark" then!"
 

 
Anyway, I think my pair will measure... and also sound... kinda different from the stock pair. Will hopefully have some data on that soon.

 

[Beginner008]

I would not worry too much about the balanced cable. The connection on the headphone is not balanced. So you are just wasting money on it.
 
Anyone have more knowledge on the matter please feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that. (The socket could have a balanced transformer built in that I didn't see!! Please look at Wikipedia for "Balanced Cable" if you need more information.)

 

[purk]

  I would not worry too much about the balanced cable. The connection on the headphone is not balanced. So you are just wasting money on it.
 
Anyone have more knowledge on the matter please feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that. (The socket could have a balanced transformer built in that I didn't see!! Please look at Wikipedia for "Balanced Cable" if you need more information.)

The Z7 can be reterminated for a balanced drive easily thanks to its 4 wire conductors, two on each side.  You can do this easily with both stock cables.  I recommend a 4-pin male XLR for balanced connector.

 

[Beginner008]

The Z7 can be reterminated for a balanced drive easily thanks to its 4 wire conductors, two on each side.  You can do this easily with both stock cables.  I recommend a 4-pin male XLR for balanced connector.

Are you going to ignore one of the signal or are you able to source a 3.5mm connector with a built in transformer?

If you are going to ignore one of the signal then that is a waste of money!

(Balanced connection contain 3 conductors on each channel. 2 signal paths and one ground. Each signal is inverted to the other so any noise would be canceled out at the receiving end. You can make it work with only one signal and the ground connected but all benefit of a balanced connection will be losted!)

 

[purk]

Are you going to ignore one of the signal or are you able to source a 3.5mm connector with a built in transformer?

If you are going to ignore one of the signal then that is a waste of money!

(Balanced connection contain 3 conductors on each channel. 2 signal paths and one ground. Each signal is inverted to the other so any noise would be canceled out at the receiving end. You can make it work with only one signal and the ground connected but all benefit of a balanced connection will be losted!)

 
You are mistaken here and no transformer is needed either.  Transformer is needed on the signal side of things or op-amps to create a balanced signal for left & right channels.  
 
On a headphone cable side, you only need a separate signal & ground on left and right channel (so a total of 4 separate wires are needed).  You probably have not re-cabled your headphones cable before, but only pin 2 and 3 are active on the left & right side of conventional 3-pin XLR jack.  Shielding is not connected. For 4-pin XLR jack, all pins are active as follows:
 
Pin 1: Left Signal
Pin 2: Left Ground
Pin 3: Right Signal
Pin 4: Right Ground 
 
Same thing is done on a dual TRS mini-jacks of the Z7 & PHA-3 .