[Sonywalkmanuser]

@djricekcn
My guess is that your ear shape already closely matches generic HRTF profile set by Sony, so even after you do a custom profile, there’s little or no changes in the algorithm calculation so maybe that’s why you don’t hear differences.

I do have a close friend who also owns the WM1AM2 and he has both the IER-Z1R and MDR-Z1R. I did ask him if applying device profile with ear data made a difference to the soundstage presentation and he confirm that it does make a noticeable difference for him.

Anyway the spatial sound processing for stereo music files is very dependent on the source file. It mostly is about ambience and spaciousness and airiness of the soundstage and not like in 360RA files where sound objects move around in 3D space.

I think for those that own the M2 Walkman, you can do on the fly comparison between the soundstage of DSD Remastering On vs DSEE Ultimate On. This is using Walkman Music App with just regular stereo channel recordings. The source music file do matter a lot for this comparison, try to find music that has ambient sounds or have music that contains a lot of stereo panning or live concert recordings.

Apart from the volume level differences(dsd remastering needs about +10 volume) and the louder sounding transient dynamics of dsee ultimate. The dsd remastering seems to be playing music in a more traditional 2D stereo sound as compared to the DSEE Ultimate which sounds more like 3D 7.1 virtualized spacial surround. At least that’s what I think I am hearing subjectively.

 

[seanwee]

Disclosure: highly subjective debate. Please read on with your own judgement

First of all, allow me to recommend Micron MicroSD . The current best I have found.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Micron/MTSD1T0AKC7MS-1WT?qs=wnTfsH77Xs5MS4KanzGPEQ==

Secondly, technically, the Micron MicroSD is an industrial design. It was made to withstand more abuses than the consumer grade one

Finally, the algorithms that was built into the Micron MicroSD is qualified as an industrial, and that it is so smart in a way to preserve and correct “errors” from both end, writing/reading.

Anyways! It performances can be observed. You don’t have to take my words for it. You can try it and observe for yourself

You are also not wrong that the S-Master is very sensitive to vibrations. That is because it essentially is generating pulses rather than computing it .

Additionally, S-Master is also sensitive to noises (vibrations, and electrical noises) that is Pre-processing ….aka coming from your MicroSD or USB interfaces.

You are also not wrong in saying that MicroSD can generate noises by itself. Hence many years back Sony introduced their own custom MicroSD to suppress noises. The architecture of the cells and the way the power supplies going through it to read and access these cells had to undergo a unique way to suppress these noises




Fortunately, with the current and newest technologies, the industrial Grade together with the expertises coming from WD themselves has produced something that is remarkable. Not only is able to qualify as an industrial highest standard, but also is so quiet, so accurate and can perform Pure Audiophile quality.

In the end, I recommend you to try it out. For a robust 1TB storage that also have the performances for your sound quality. This is worth every cent.

Hate to burst your bubble but as far as data integrity goes these micron cards should be the worst.

These are designed for high data density and thus use QLC nand. See here for an explanation. https://www.hardwaretimes.com/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-qlc-nand-ssds-which-one-is-better/

You might argue that because its meant for 24/7 surveillance that it needs to be reliable right? Yes, but not in the way you think.

Endurance and MTBF only refer to the complete failure of the drive. It doesn't account for tiny errors like bit flips that are corrected by software which are the very thing we are looking to avoid.

24/7 surveillance isn't the most sensitive data. We all know and joke about how bad cctv quality is. So even with a relatively high rate of miswrites, who's going to notice 1000 pixels with the wrong colour in a 1080p frame with 2 million pixels, running at 25/30fps, and not write it off as crappy cctv quality?

The best sd cards you should be looking for would be the ones that are using MLC nand which are far more reliable and less error prone.

 

[Sonywalkmanuser]

This is illogical! MicroSD affecting sound quality of my Walkman? Are you nuts? Bits are bits! There is no way that data transmission can go wrong, there is a mega data buffer that eliminates all buffering issues. The dac chip and it’s other components in the chain is totally immune to internal electrical circuitry noise, vibrations and jitter! You are totally wrong and you should be banned and deleted from Internet!l Get out of my Walkman thread for good!

End of rant.

Anyway this microSD issue can be subjectively tested by anyone who owns a Walkman/dap and microSD card easily.

Listen to your test tracks on your microSD card as per normal. I would suggest using a test track which you are very familiar with as in you have listened to the song for many times and also the test tracks should preferably contain a lot of dynamics and plenty of sound details for you to identify the differences more easily if any exists. Volume levels also play a part in identifying differences, suggest to use higher(safe) loudness.

Locate and move the test tracks over to your Walkman internal storage using the files app to the /music folder on your Walkman internal storage. Once moved, perform Update database operation on your Walkman music app and listen to the test tracks again.

If you don’t hear differences, then congratulations, there is nothing to worry about either. Continue to enjoy your Walkman’s high sound quality as per normal. No harm was done to anyone or your ears.

If you heard differences, then congratulations you have successfully stepped in the magical rabbit hole. Now you should try to do more research into procuring better quality microSD cards for your Walkman if your budget allows for it.

 

[The1Signature]

in terms of the 360 audio issue, i remember i read somewhere that most of the songs from the past are just digitally transformed to match the 360 experience. and some albums are going to be re-recorded with the special 360 setup. however, there are just a few song / albums out there with the "real" 360 setup - the position of the artists, the instruments, the mics, etc. - and recorded according to their 360 guidelines. so far, this barely happens.

 

[psikey]

Old piece but this is the only bit I agree with reference mSD cards and audio.

https://www.whathifi.com/news/sony-claims-high-end-sd-card-offers-premium-sound

Sony claims the card helps to "reduce electrical noise generated when the file [your digital music] is read".​

The 1 & 0's being affected is a nonsense unless the card is faulty or failing. As I mentioned earlier, when I had a Hugo 2 which is really best for headphones, I could pick up electric switching, resonance type noise in quiet parts of tracks with my 8 ohm SE846's making them unusable without using my ifi iEMatch impedance adapter.

Speed is also of no issue with current cards other than getting the files on quick in the first place.

When this topic came up last time none of the 4 mSD cards I could get my hands on made any difference (to what my 55yo ears I could hear anyway).

This might be interesting to some

https://acousticnature.com/journal/best-sd-card-for-recording-audio (doesn't cover anything like the logic board noise variations of switching noise.)

 

[Whitigir]

Here is a clip that explains what mathematical algorithm will and can do to error corrections. Feel free to spend some minute. Also there is a great movie about the turren machine which leaded the way for computer on Netflix “the imitation game”.

 

[Sonywalkmanuser]

in terms of the 360 audio issue, i remember i read somewhere that most of the songs from the past are just digitally transformed to match the 360 experience. and some albums are going to be re-recorded with the special 360 setup. however, there are just a few song / albums out there with the "real" 360 setup - the position of the artists, the instruments, the mics, etc. - and recorded according to their 360 guidelines. so far, this barely happens.

End of the day 360RA is just a new method and technological platform for music creation and delivery, doesn’t mean with it, all music will sound better, but if it’s done right with a competent music producer, it can produce wonderful results.

In the same light game developers can still produce crappy games using the latest and greatest unreal engine 5.0.

 

[psikey]

Here is a clip that explains what mathematical algorithm will and can do to error corrections. Feel free to spend some minute. Also there is a great movie about the turren machine which leaded the way for computer on Netflix “the imitation game”.

I bit of a techie read here but does show noise generated in writes to an SD card in this example, but any DAP developer worth their salt should design their products to work perfectly with all mainstream card producers. As I say, I can imagine high sensitivity IEM's picking this variation up with cards read/write noise.

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/441790/spi-interfering-with-adc-sample

 

[Sonywalkmanuser]

https://acousticnature.com/journal/best-sd-card-for-recording-audio (doesn't cover anything like the logic board noise variations of switching noise.)

There's differences in the guaranteed(not maximum) write speeds and latency of microsd cards:

https://jitter.company/blog/2019/07/31/microsd-performance-on-memory-constrained-devices/

But all these write speeds are not related to the issue with sound on our walkmans which does much more reading of data from the microsd than writing.

I would think that sound difference of different microsd cards is related more to outbound electrical noise generated from the microsd card that is affecting the walkman's digital logic boards components with relation to clock jitter. Maybe in most other design implementations like in smartphones and photography, the electrical noises from the microsd cards don't affect the function of the product but in the case of high resolution audio playback systems that utilizes high precision, time sensitive clocking, there is going to be perceivable audible effects to the sound for some of us.

 

[Whitigir]

I bit of a techie read here but does show noise generated in writes to an SD car in this example, but and DAP developer worth their salt should design their products to work perfectly with all mainstream card producers. As I say, I can imagine high sensitivity IEM's picking this variation up with cards read/write noise.

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/441790/spi-interfering-with-adc-sample

I have never doubted that

There's differences in the guaranteed(not maximum) write speeds and latency of microsd cards:

https://jitter.company/blog/2019/07/31/microsd-performance-on-memory-constrained-devices/

But all these write speeds are not related to the issue with sound on our walkmans which does much more reading of data from the microsd than writing.

I would think that sound difference of different microsd cards is related more to outbound electrical noise generated from the microsd card that is affecting the walkman's digital logic boards components with relation to clock jitter. Maybe in most other design implementations like in smartphones and photography, the electrical noises from the microsd cards don't affect the function of the product but in the case of high resolution audio playback systems that utilizes high precision, time sensitive clocking, there is going to be perceivable audible effects to the sound for some of us.

Yes, noises from any sources, either physical vibrations, or electrical noises, are all effecting the way the data is going to be sampled. Inside the Walkman or S-Master, they sampling it by using the Crystal oscillators. Any vibrations or noises coming from it, will effect the sounds

In any electrical components, there are always current generated noises. The matter is that whether it is below the floor noises (the threshold that human can observe) or within it ? Aka -135Db. These noises can be measured and just as long as it is measurable, it will effect sound quality.

 

[Sonywalkmanuser]

Even in the world of desktop audio, there is a measurable jitter effect with the electrical noise caused by the source device:

 

[Sonywalkmanuser]

Once my WM1AM2 balanced port gets its 200hours ageing done, I will explore the different microsd cards I have at hand to give my subjective opinion on which card sounds best with the WM1AM2 along side my current iem and headphones.

 

[Sonywalkmanuser]

Well for whatever it's worth, there's a product article about EMI filtering for microsd cards by ST

Conclusion STMicroelectronics EMIF devices include protection and filtering functions for SD card Ultra High Speed applications. Their electrical characteristics have been optimized to guarantee low clamping voltages in order to protect the host driver, often exposed to ESD surges during card insertion and removal. Through careful PCB layout, it is possible to obtain the highest data rate transmission allowable on the new SD3.01-compliant µSD or SD cards used by many portable devices. The filtering capabilities of the EMIF devices can help the designer to limit the noise generated during the read and write operations and improve EMI robustness, especially on devices such as phones or tablets, which are particularly exposed to this issue.

https://www.st.com/resource/en/appl...-and-filtering-devices-stmicroelectronics.pdf


Here is what Mr. Hiroro Sato, the current engineer responsible for WM1ZM2 sound quality has said about microsd card during the days of the ZX2 walkman in 2015:

However , from the perspective of Mr. Sato, who is watching the sound quality of the Walkman, the sound differs depending on the memory media.


Mr. Hiroro Sato who is in charge of sound quality such as Walkman ZX series compatible with high resolution

Sato: In February of this year, we launched the NW-ZX2, a high-quality Walkman model. Also, at the end of last year, we released a high-resolution Walkman called NW-A10, each of which has a microSD slot so that it can be played back using external media. During the development process, I was checking the sound, but when I played it with the built-in memory and when I played it with the microSD, the sound was clearly different. Since there is so much difference, I think that this can be visualized as data ... I tried to measure the frequency characteristics, SN, dynamic range characteristics, THD + N characteristics, etc., but I can still find the difference. did not. However, there is a clear difference when I listen to it, so I called out to the Memory Media Products Department to verify it further.

Satori: We received an order from Mr. Sato, so we classified them into different parts, different firmware, etc., and provided them. Some of them have the same contents but different colors. I divided it into small pieces, so I wonder if there were more than 30 types ...

A part of the microSD card used for the audition test. Actually, he listened to more than 30 cards and tried it.
――Is there really a difference?

Sato: Yes, there was a considerable difference in the sound. Of course, I didn't listen to it alone, but a lot of members of the department listened to it and checked it, but it was the same. What surprised me was that there was a difference depending on the color of the card.

――It's hard to believe that the contents are the same and the color of the microSD is different .

Sato: Of course, this is also not shown in the measurement results, so it is a very disappointing place for an electrician, but the members around me have similar impressions, so I think there is no doubt. However, when I looked it up, I thought that the paint had different distributions of metal powder depending on the color, so I thought that these things might have some effect.


It is said that there were many exchanges between Mr. Satori (left) and Mr. Sato (right).

Satori: To be honest, I was skeptical at first, but when I interviewed everyone, not just Mr. Sato, he said the same tendency, so I'm convinced that he might have done that. bottom. I'm not good at audio myself, but after being pointed out by Mr. Sato, when I listened to it, I could see the difference, and I thought that this might be commercialized. I did.

――Even if there is a difference in sound, is it due to the design of parts and memory media? Isn't it just a variation for each individual?

Sato: At first, I thought so too. However, I was asked to provide multiple media with the same composition, so when I listened to them and compared them, they still made the same sound if they were of the same type, and there was a difference if they were different. Under such circumstances, I chose the one with a good sound.

――What do you mean by saying that the sound is good and the sound is bad?

Sato: There is no difference in the measured SN, but there are some that have a hard sound and some that have a soft and gentle sound, and I feel that the soft and gentle sound is closer to the original sound. At the beginning, CDs had a hard sound, and it was said that "analog records are better". This was a problem because it was technically immature, but with the evolution of technology, the sound quality of CDs is also improving. In the case of memory media, it has been negligible until now, but with the advent of high resolution, it has become possible to recognize differences in sound even in finer areas, and as a result, these small differences have become noticeable. I think it came.

source:
https://av-watch-impress-co-jp.tran...uto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

 

[Whitigir]

Yes, in this hobby, if one can not hear the differences, then they can stop chasing the rabbit. That is actually their blessing. Cursed is the people who can tell the differences and spend a lot more to studying it, just to improve the enjoyments.

 

[nc8000]

I definately believe that these differences could be real, they are just beyond my abillity to detect them as I’ve never heard any difference between all the microSD cards I’ve used in dap’s the last 7-8 years