[Sanctuary]

You're off by an order of magnitude. You can buy tripods with 50kg max load for less than a tenth of that https://www.musicstore.com/en_IE/EU...-max-50-kg-Aluminium-Black/art-PAH0000556-000 or with a winch: https://www.musicstore.de/de_DE/EUR...-50kg-belastbar-mit-Kurbel/art-PAH0000553-000

If your speakers are so "small" that you even consider using a tripod, 50kg max should be enough. You may have to budget for a table-like attachment to go on top of the tripod to place your speakers on, but I can't find one of those at the moment. Alternatively, rent the whole kit for a day or two at a place that rents PAs, they have even more robust tripods.

Seven foot is way too short. I've seen plenty of stands that are between 5 - 7 feet, and that's just not tall enough. Plus, the height isn't even the most difficult part to figure out, it's how to suspend bookshelf speakers, especially those on the somewhat larger side that also don't have mounting holes. Trying to figure out a way to have these firing straight down anyway, and would rather not have them at an angle.

https://www.amazon.com/ELAC-Debut-B...ck+(Pair)&qid=1591874555&s=electronics&sr=1-3

They weigh 16 pounds, which those stands seem to be good enough for, but that says nothing of the attachment. I could consider purchasing lighter, mountable speakers, but then they wouldn't even be put to use after using them for a PRIR. I had considered renting some gear as well, but couldn't find any decent shops in my area. Guess I'll look harder.

 

[Eich1eeF]

Is one of the capabilities of the A16 the ability to receive an HDMI signal input with an ATMOS stream embedded, and distribute it to the 16 analog outputs? and if so, does it have a volume knob that will control the level to those 16 outputs?

Manual, 7.4.2.1:
When operating in AV mode the volume control changes the level of the analogue line outputs which would typically be connected to loudspeaker amplifiers.

and 2.2.2:
[...]in the AV mode the SVS processing is bypassed, and the decoded multichannel outputs signals are sent directly to the 16-ch analogue Line Outputs.

However, there are limitations that would make even an entry level AVR better suited for this:

* there's no delay management
* For PCM listening rooms there is NO bass management for AV loudspeaker outputs.
* there's no room EQ whatsoever

The drawbacks above would presumably be fixed if the Smyths implemented Dirac.

 

[hadron70]

To use the center speaker as temporary height speaker for measurements, I used 2 high tripods:
https://www.thomann.de/de/millenium_lichtstativ_lst310_bundle.htm

The construction looks like that:

By changing the sitting position relative to this construction, all 6 height speaker positions can be measured. The center speaker should even have a better quality than some small dedicated height speakers.

It basically works, but in the end I did not complete the measurement and gave up the idea of measuring a 9.1.6 PRIR with single speakers. It is just SO much hassle, you still fight the acoustic imperfections of your living room, and you even lose the room correction of the AV receiver.

Instead, I focus on finding a place where a high quality PRIR can be measured in an acoustically optimized room equipped with a complete Atmos speaker setup using the ASYNC method. Hopefully soon I can report more on that front.

 

[Eich1eeF]

Seven foot is way too short. I've seen plenty of stands that are between 5 - 7 feet, and that's just not tall enough. Plus, the height isn't even the most difficult part to figure out, it's how to suspend bookshelf speakers, especially those on the somewhat larger side that also don't have mounting holes. Trying to figure out a way to have these firing straight down anyway, and would rather not have them at an angle.

So you're trying Voice of God Channels, not height speakers? In that case, you'll probably have to rent 2 tripods, a truss and probably a speaker with truss mount. I'll probably just find myself a comfy chair that leans back far enough so I can reproducably point my body at a height speaker.

Also, SVS removes speaker distance out of the measurement. Instead of going for e.g. 10ft away and 10ft high, you can just as well move closer and lower.

 

[Dixter]

Takes six ladders and six girl friends.

I would be broke with six girl friends...

 

[sander99]

Also, SVS removes speaker distance out of the measurement. Instead of going for e.g. 10ft away and 10ft high, you can just as well move closer and lower.

You are going to confuse people with this.
I assume you are referring to the fact that SVS will remove (differences in) delays. So you don't need to worry about all distances being equal. Nevertheless, a speaker measured up close will sound like a speaker up close, so you wouldn't want to measure it too close.

 

[Sanctuary]

So you're trying Voice of God Channels, not height speakers? In that case, you'll probably have to rent 2 tripods, a truss and probably a speaker with truss mount. I'll probably just find myself a comfy chair that leans back far enough so I can reproducably point my body at a height speaker.

Also, SVS removes speaker distance out of the measurement. Instead of going for e.g. 10ft away and 10ft high, you can just as well move closer and lower.

I was trying to factor for reflections. Also, never heard the overhead speakers called "Voice of God", but I guess that's a good a name as any. I'm trying to get the overhead speakers exactly parallel with the floor, although if height speakers at an angle will work good enough, I suppose that would save some hassle.

Instead, I focus on finding a place where a high quality PRIR can be measured in an acoustically optimized room equipped with a complete Atmos speaker setup using the ASYNC method. Hopefully soon I can report more on that front.

This is clearly the optimal way to do it, but actually having a place that is somewhat near, that you don't have to fly to and one that will allow you to actually record their setup is like a unicorn compared to the early days of the A8.

 

[GeorgeA]

......Also, never heard the overhead speakers called "Voice of God", but I guess that's a good a name as any....

Auro-3D comes in a variety of listening formats that are compliant with market standards:
Home Theater (Small Rooms): Auro 9.1, Auro 10.1 (with added Top Ceiling channel, the so-called "Voice Of God")
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auro-3D

 

[Eich1eeF]

I was trying to factor for reflections. Also, never heard the overhead speakers called "Voice of God", but I guess that's a good a name as any. I'm trying to get the overhead speakers exactly parallel with the floor, although if height speakers at an angle will work good enough, I suppose that would save some hassle.

I believe those overhead speakers that are parallel to the ceiling are just a compromise to make them easier to install or increase their Wife Acceptance Factor. Your bookshelf speakers should be pointed at your ears, no matter how you use them. Their off-axis response may actually be noticably worse than on-axis. Just look at what the Smyths are doing when demoing with their Yamaha monitors, e.g. here.

 

[Eich1eeF]

You are going to confuse people with this.
I assume you are referring to the fact that SVS will remove (differences in) delays. So you don't need to worry about all distances being equal. Nevertheless, a speaker measured up close will sound like a speaker up close, so you wouldn't want to measure it too close.

SVS doesn't just remove the difference, it removes the entire delay.

In an anechoic room, you wouldn't be able to tell the distance to a sound source if you were not allowed do move around. There's no point in worrying about getting your speakers 3m away if that takes great effort, if you can easily and cheaply measure your PRIR at 2m, but don't strap the speakers to your head. More (reasonable) damping materials and room correction, possibly combined with a house curve you like would be a much better investment of funds and time, in my opinion.

 

[jazzfan]

For anyone interested in the Dutch & Dutch 8C, I've uploaded a new PRIR (dated 10-Jun-2020) to the "upload new files here" Google Drive folder that includes a Center/Subwoofer pair measurement to replace the single Center PRIR I previously uploaded. This new PRIR, when combined with my other two 8C PRIRs, contains all of the speaker measurements needed to create a true Atmos or PCM 9.1.6 channel room. Last evening I watched 2012 and Battle Los Angeles on Netflix and found the experience very convincing. Unfortunately, I still have not had the chance to hear a full Dolby Atmos movie. My second-gen Apple TV seems to limit audio to 5.1/7.1 Dolby, and I'm still struggling to get HDMI multi-channel to work from my fanless QuantumByte Windows 10 based PC. Nevertheless, even with 5.1/7.1 Dolby, compared to the BBC room, the new 8C room is much more cinematic and dynamic with a wide soundstage, a solid center channel image, and room-filling bass when present. I invite all A16 owners to give this new PRIR a try.

 

[sander99]

SVS doesn't just remove the difference, it removes the entire delay.

I know, that's why I put "(differences in)" between brackets. (Or actually, to be very precise I think they will have to keep a tiny bit of delay as leeway with regards to head tracking. If you turn your head such that one ear moves a little closer to certain speakers there has to be some delay left that can be decreased.)

In an anechoic room, you wouldn't be able to tell the distance to a sound source if you were not allowed do move around.

But we are not listening in anechoic rooms. And (as someone mentioned some time ago) what about parallax effect? That effect would maybe be neglectable when comparing sound sources at 2m with sound sources at any unlimited greater distance. But if you compare 10cm with 2m maybe it is perceivable. Imagine a sound source right in front of your nose. The left ear would receive the sound hrtf filtered as coming from about 30 degrees right, and the right ear would receive the sound hrtf filtered as coming from about 30 degrees left. While with a sound source at a few meters or further right in front of you both ears would receive the sound hrtf filtered as coming from approximately 0 degrees (straight forward). Wouldn't that difference be audible? Plus with head tracking we can rotate our head and get another perspective (in particular also on that parallax effect). Or do you know of any research that contradicts this possibility? But anyway, this possible parallax effect in itself doesn't contradict your following statement:

There's no point in worrying about getting your speakers 3m away if that takes great effort, if you can easily and cheaply measure your PRIR at 2m, but don't strap the speakers to your head.

I do agree that it isn't a disaster to measure at 2m instead of 3m. (Although I do think it is audible in a normal room.) I just made my remark because some people may read your post as if distance is not perceived at all and that would be confusing because perceiving sound at a distance outside your head is the whole point of the Realiser!

 

[Eich1eeF]

But we are not listening in anechoic rooms. And (as someone mentioned some time ago) what about parallax effect? That effect would maybe be neglegible when comparing sound sources at 2m with sound sources at any unlimited greater distance. But if you compare 10cm with 2m maybe it is perceivable. Imagine a sound source right in front of your nose. The left ear would receive the sound hrtf filtered as coming from about 30 degrees right, and the right ear would receive the sound hrtf filtered as coming from about 30 degrees left.

I think that that's a valid theoretical point, but on the other hand, most people are probably not trained to be able to tell the difference. I would suspect that for nearby sources, you would instinctively locate them via parallax.

While with a sound source at a few meters or further right in front of you both ears would receive the sound hrtf filtered as coming from approximately 0 degrees (straight forward). Wouldn't that difference be audible? Plus with head tracking we can rotate our head and get another perspective (in particular also on that parallax effect). Or do you know of any research that contradicts this possibility?

I don't know, and I can't find any research regarding this. For the purpose of the PRIR measurement, you would ideally rotate your head around it's "acoustic center" and thereby not add any unwanted parallax to the measurement. In any case, with a speaker sufficiently far away (and I would suspect that >1m should be enough), the effect of the rotation should by far outweigh the effect of displacement for anyone giving even a minimal effort to get a good PRIR.

Although I do think it is audible in a normal room

I agree that that may be the case in an untreated room if the listener is familiar with the acoustics. Given that we're talking about temporary setups involving ladders and girlfriends, I don't think it's going to be relevant. I'd appreciate if someone with a sufficiently large room that is acoustically "homogenous" could try and record a single speaker PRIR where the "only" difference is the distance to the measured speaker, i.e. there should be no furniture near the listener in one measurement and not the other. I don't have any rooms that could qualify without moving multiple large pieces of furniture.

 

[mrmac]

SVS doesn't just remove the difference, it removes the entire delay.

In an anechoic room, you wouldn't be able to tell the distance to a sound source if you were not allowed do move around. There's no point in worrying about getting your speakers 3m away if that takes great effort, if you can easily and cheaply measure your PRIR at 2m, but don't strap the speakers to your head. More (reasonable) damping materials and room correction, possibly combined with a house curve you like would be a much better investment of funds and time, in my opinion.

So your saying that SVS is capturing the frequency response of a speaker that will sound like it’s coming from that physical point and distance but the individual distance (delay) between the different speakers is irrelevant? So if two speakers are at 6m and 2m distance, they will both sound like that physical distance BUT both arrive at my ear at the same time (IE same delay)?

I was just about to embark on a new PRIR session and planned to place my LCR (that I’m using as all my speakers by turning myself around) in a perfect crescent shape to create a perfect circle of speakers as a complete PRIR. So your saying this is NOT needed? It’s just the angles that are important?

What’s the consensus on the gain setting when doing multiple PRIR’s? It was explained in one of Smyth’s YouTube videos that you should change the gain to the same value. True? I wasn’t aware of this when I did my last PRIR and as such the center is too loud and the surrounds feel a bit lost.

It’s so frustrating that we have async measurement working but no files. Just release the basic 5.1/7.1 files already!! Makes the use of room corrections all so much easier!

Ps I’m on FW 1.90 and have so far no issues. Feel a bit worried to upgrade to 1.91 since some have had problems with both...

 

[Sanctuary]

I believe those overhead speakers that are parallel to the ceiling are just a compromise to make them easier to install or increase their Wife Acceptance Factor. Your bookshelf speakers should be pointed at your ears, no matter how you use them. Their off-axis response may actually be noticably worse than on-axis. Just look at what the Smyths are doing when demoing with their Yamaha monitors, e.g. here.

I've seen their demos and how they are doing it, but I always assumed it was simply for convenience and portability. Also, most guides recommend them being parallel if they have a wide dispersion (like in the theater), otherwise angle them. So it looks like I really shouldn't be worrying so much about having them in the "Voice of God" position, and having them angled towards me should be convincing enough.