[Sanctuary]

I started making PRIRs a week ago, and I finally cobbled together my first 9.1.6ch room using a pair of Dutch & Dutch 8C monitors.



This being my first attempt at creating an A16 PRIR, I had to create three separate PRIRs to complete a 9.1.6ch room. I'm sure if I remeasured everything in one session, I could produce a single 9.1.6 PRIR and improve volume level matching of the center channel as well. At some point, I may go back and redo the measurements. However, remeasuring everything is not an ordeal I wish to revisit at this time. I've uploaded all three files to the Google Drive that I believe was created by @Rene Lou.

To create a full 9.1.6 Atmos and/or PCM room, you'll need to use the Listening Rooms menu to combine all three PRIRs. The Google Drive folder also contains a _Readme file. This file contains additional notes on each file, along with specifics on how to combine all three PRIRs (see instructions below). It should be noted that none of the PRIRs include a subwoofer measurement. This omission was intentional because that the 8C is the first stand-mounted monitor I've heard that can reach 20Hz in my room. That said, I'm pleased to report that I'm satisfied with the sound of the resulting 9.1.6ch room (technically a 9.0.6ch room), although the majority of my listing is limited to two-channel music.

If you achieve respectable results from the Dutch & Dutch 8C PRIRs, let me know either via this thread or directly via PM.

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When you were recording the height speakers, what did you end up using for elevation? Did you simply put the speakers up on a high shelf, or did you happen to have stands that allowed you to raise them 8-10 feet and at an angle?

Helpful post in any event. Sometime over the next few months I'll be going to record a better 7.1 PRIR with my A8, and then using that same room later on once the A16 arrives, and I can figure out how to better do the height speakers (aside from just using virtual ones in the meantime).

 

[jazzfan]

@jazzfan:
If there is no Subwoofer (SW) in any of your PRIRs then a 9.0.6 room has to be configured. I think that in a 9.0.6 Atmos room the LFE gets routed to the L and R speakers, but to be honest I don't know. And I also don't know how the LFE Boost works this way. (LFE +10).
In a Dolby (and DTS I suppose) BITSTREAM the LFE channel is recorded 10 dB lower than the main channels. A normal AV-Receiver does the LFE Boost automatically. With the Realiser it could be complicated, it depends on the relative Subwoofer Level to the other channels during the PRIR recording.
For a PCM signal it depends on the device that sends and/or decode the signal.

Example(s):
For the Surrey Room I need the LFE+10 for Atmos signals. At least I'm pretty sure about that.
Since DTS can not yet be decoded by the Realiser, my UHD Player Panasonic 424 decodes a DTS bitstream to PCM and it seems that it already boosts the LFE by 10 dB. So I don't need the LFE+10 for PCM rooms in this case.
The same is true for the sync measurements we did in January. We also did it in separate PRIRs, with 2 speakers each, so 8 PRIRs in total (I described this few pages ago).

In this case we had 2 speakers and a Subwoofer, Both speakers were bassmanaged by the AVR with the Sub, so effectively full range. We recorded one speaker then as SW. Only for the LFE, because all other speakers have been effectively recorded as fullrange. We always used the L and R analogue ins of the AVR (it didn't even have a multi channel in with a dedicated SW in), so in this case the "Sub" has been recorded at the same level as the other speakers, so for Atmos bitstreams the Realiser has to do the LFE+10.

If your speakers frequency response goes down to 20 Hz you could have recorded one as SW in a PRIR. It does not need to be very powerful, just the frequency response low enough would be sufficient.
Then you could setup 9.1.6 rooms.

Or, what I nearly forgot: You could either choose a sub from the BBC or Surrey room or use the Direct Bass functionality.


And don't forget that everyone with different ears as jazzfan's need a manLOUD HPEQ based on his PRIRs so that they may work a little bit better.

@audiohobbit, you bring up an interesting point. As I mentioned, most of my listing is 2-channel based. Since I've had minimal experience with multi-channel systems, I didn't put much thought into creating a multi-channel room. But I believe you're correct in that in the absence of an LFE channel, the LFE signal is routed to the mains. Also note, I configured all speakers as Large rather than Small so that a full range signal would be routed to all virtual speakers. I agree that configuring an Atmos 9.0.6 room would likely produce the best results from my three PRIRs. I'll update the instructions to reflect this change.

However, it's less clear to me how to properly configure a 9.0.6 PCM room, since a "no sub" option does not appear to be available with six overhead channels. In the case of a PCM room, filling in the missing sub with one from another room would seem like the best remedy. I'm open to other suggestions on how to address this PCM room question.

The last option, as you pointed out, would be to remeasure an 8C as a sub, so a proper 9.1.6 PCM room could be configured. Since I was planning on remeasuring my Center/Sub pair anyway, I'll upload a new PRIR as time permits.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

When you were recording the height speakers, what did you end up using for elevation? Did you simply put the speakers up on a high shelf, or did you happen to have stands that allowed you to raise them 8-10 feet and at an angle?

Helpful post in any event. Sometime over the next few months I'll be going to record a better 7.1 PRIR with my A8, and then using that same room later on once the A16 arrives, and I can figure out how to better do the height speakers (aside from just using virtual ones in the meantime).

@Sanctuary measuring overhead channels can be a challenge. My family probably thought I was going insane because of the extreme approach I took to measure the overhead channels. In my listening room, the 8C's are mounted on 28" high stands. Each speaker weighs close to 60lbs each. Moving them would not be a simple proposition. One method that I believe has been suggested is to lay on the floor in front of the speakers looking up at the ceiling to take Ltf/Rtf measurements, then turn around and lay on your stomach for the Ltr/Rtr measurements. I didn't want floor reflections to impact the measurements. The solution was simple, "If the mountain will not come to Mohammed, Mohammed will go to the mountain".

I must warn you for safety reasons, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. If you do, you do so at your own risk!

I brought two 6' ladders into my listening room so I could position my body above the speakers to take measurements. I placed the first ladder 4' in front and directly in between the speakers. I positioned the second ladder 2' behind the first. For the Ltr/Rtr measurements, I connected the channel 15/16 output, reversing the L/R channels. I climbed the first ladder backwards so that I could face the ceiling by resting my shoulders on the top rung of the first ladder, all while supporting my body in a horizontal position with my knees bent and feet placed the rungs of the second ladder.

The Ltf/Rtf measurements were much easier. I connected the channel 11/12 output using normal L/R channel orientation. I climbed the first ladder, bent at the waist, and leaned forward over the top of the ladder holding my torso horizontal facing the floor.

The Ltm/Rtm were the easiest since no ladders were required. I connected channels 13/14 with normal L/R channel orientation. While standing on the floor facing the speakers, I bent at the waist, again leaning forward facing the ground. For all three measurements, I tried to keep my head aligned along the same vertical plane.

Before I conclude, I must thank my son for assisting me with this effort. Without his assistance, my little measurement experiment would likely have resulted in a trip to the Emergency Room.

I recognize this approach did not produce ideal measurements, only a rough approximation of properly mounted overhead speakers. But based on the Realiser A16 virtual speaker "test" function, the results for me are quite satisfactory, AND I didn't have to incur the cost of purchasing seven additional speakers. This fact alone demonstrates to me the Realiser A16 (and A8) has the best ROI of any piece of audio gear I've ever purchased.

 

[Rene Lou]

I started making PRIRs a week ago, and I finally cobbled together my first 9.1.6ch room using a pair of Dutch & Dutch 8C monitors.



This being my first attempt at creating an A16 PRIR, I had to create three separate PRIRs to complete a 9.0.6ch room. I'm sure if I remeasured everything in one session, I could produce a single 9.0.6 PRIR and improve volume level matching of the center channel as well. At some point, I may go back and redo the measurements. However, remeasuring everything is not an ordeal I wish to revisit at this time. I've uploaded all three files to the Google Drive that I believe was created by @Rene Lou.

To create a full 9.0.6 Atmos and/or PCM room, you'll need to use the Listening Rooms menu to combine all three PRIRs. The Google Drive folder also contains a _Readme file. This file contains additional notes on each file, along with specifics on how to combine all three PRIRs (see instructions below). It should be noted that none of the PRIRs include a subwoofer measurement. This omission was intentional because that the 8C is the first stand-mounted monitor I've heard that can reach 20Hz in my room. That said, I'm pleased to report that I'm satisfied with the sound of the resulting 9.0.6ch room, although the majority of my listing is limited to two-channel music.

If you achieve respectable results from the Dutch & Dutch 8C PRIRs, let me know either via this thread or directly via PM.

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06/09/20 Update: I will be uploading a new PRIR in the future that can be used to create a full 9.1.6 Atmos/PCM room. Stay tuned. Thanks @audiohobbit for raising the issue. See this post for more information.

Title: Building virtual rooms from multiple PRIRs

Description

With the Realiser A16, virtual rooms can be created using multiple speaker measurements taken at different times. These instructions are an example of the steps needed to create a new virtual 9.0.6 room by combining three specific custom A16 PRIRs. If different PRIRs are used, the steps detailed here may need to change to reflect differences in other individual PRIR files. These steps are specific to my personalized Dutch & Dutch 8C measurement files.

Process Summary

1. Transfer the PRIRs to the A16

2. Build new Atmos/PCM rooms

3. Load the new virtual room number into presets

Process Details

Step 1 - Transfer the PRIRs from an SD card to permanent storage in the A16
1.1 Download the PRIRs from the Google Drive (or any other source) and copy the files to a properly formatted MicroSD card
1.2 Insert the MicroSD card into the A16; Power on the A16
1.3 After the A16 completely boots to the Speaker Map, press the Menu key on the remote; From the Main menu, Scroll to Files; Press Enter
1.4 Scroll to MicroSD PRIR; Press Enter
1.5 Scroll to Copy to A16; Press Enter
1.6 Scroll to MicroSD to Permanent storage; Press Enter
1.7 Press Back to return to the Files menu
1.8 Repeat steps 1.4 thru 1.7 for each PRIR you wish to transfer

Step 2 - Build new Atmos/PCM rooms
2.1 From the Main Menu, scroll to Listening Rooms; Press Enter
2.2 Scroll to Atmos (or PCM) Rooms; Press Enter
2.3 Change the Atmos (or PCM) room number to a room number of your choice
2.4 Press the Right Arrow key to move to the Key symbol; Press the Adj+/Adj- key to unlock the room entry (the key color will change from Red to Gray)
2.5 Scroll to Listening mode; Use the Adj+/Adj- key to change the value to 9.0.6

Select the first PRIR (D&D 8C 7.0ch Time 15:08)
2.6 Scroll to Channel 1 (Left) in the virtual speaker list; Press Enter
2.7 Select the Permanent PRIR Files entry from the list; Press Enter
2.8 Use the Adj+/Adj- keys to select the desired PRIR number; Make sure the desired file Name and Date/Time appear on the display
2.9 Scroll to Select All Matching Speakers; Press Enter

Select the second PRIR (D&D 8C 7.0ch Time 19.37)
2.10 Scroll to Channel 3 (Center); Press Enter
2.11 Select the Permanent PRIR Files entry from the list; Press Enter
2.12 Use the Adj+/Adj- keys to select the desired PRIR from the SD card; Make sure the desired file Name and Date/Time appear on the display
2.13 Scroll to Select One Matching Speaker; Press Enter
2.14 Select the Channel 1 (Center) entry from the virtual speaker list; Press Enter

Select the third PRIR (D&D 8C 9.1.6ch OH)
2.15 Scroll to Channel 1 (Left); Press Enter
2.16 Select the Permanent PRIR Files entry from the list; Press Enter
2.17 Use the Adj+/Adj- keys to select the desired PRIR from the SD card; Make sure the desired file Name and Date/Time appear on the display
2.18 Scroll to Select All Matching Speakers; Press Enter

Save the new room
2.19 Scroll to the top of the Atmos Room page
2.20 Press the Right Arrow key to move the the Key symbol; Press the Adj+/Adj- key to lock the room entry (the key color will change from Gray to Red)
2.21 Press the Back key to save the Room
2.22 Repeat steps 2.1 thru 2.21 to create a PCM room

Step 3 - Load the new room number into presets
3.1 From the Main Menu, scroll to Presets A or B; Press Enter
3.2 Use the Adj+/Adj- keys to select the desired Preset number
3.3 Scroll to the Atmos or PCM entry; Use the Adj+/Adj- keys to select the desired room number
3.4 Scroll to the top line of the Preset menu; Press Enter to reload the preset
3.5 Press Back to return to the Main menu
3.6 Repeat steps 3.1 thru 3.4 for each User and room type as needed

@jazzfan:
Thanks for sharing !
I moved your folder to the A16 PRIR directory 3) on Google Drive

 

[Sanctuary]

@audiohobbit, you bring up an interesting point. As I mentioned, most of my listing is 2-channel based. Since I've had minimal experience with multi-channel systems, I didn't put much thought into creating a multi-channel room. But I believe you're correct in that in the absence of an LFE channel, the LFE signal is routed to the mains. Also note, I configured all speakers as Large rather than Small so that a full range signal would be routed to all virtual speakers. I agree that configuring an Atmos 9.0.6 room would likely produce the best results from my three PRIRs. I'll update the instructions to reflect this change.

However, it's less clear to me how to properly configure a 9.0.6 PCM room, since a "no sub" option does not appear to be available with six overhead channels. In the case of a PCM room, filling in the missing sub with one from another room would seem like the best remedy. I'm open to other suggestions on how to address this PCM room question.

The last option, as you pointed out, would be to remeasure an 8C as a sub, so a proper 9.1.6 PCM room could be configured. Since I was planning on remeasuring my Center/Sub pair anyway, I'll upload a new PRIR as time permits.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.




@Sanctuary measuring overhead channels can be a challenge. My family probably thought I was going insane because of the extreme approach I took to measure the overhead channels. In my listening room, the 8C's are mounted on 28" high stands. Each speaker weighs close to 60lbs each. Moving them would not be a simple proposition. One method that I believe has been suggested is to lay on the floor in front of the speakers looking up at the ceiling to take Ltf/Rtf measurements, then turn around and lay on your stomach for the Ltr/Rtr measurements. I didn't want floor reflections to impact the measurements. The solution was simple, "If the mountain will not come to Mohammed, Mohammed will go to the mountain".

I must warn you for safety reasons, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. If you do, you do so at your own risk!

I brought two 6' ladders into my listening room so I could position my body above the speakers to take measurements. I placed the first ladder 4' in front and directly in between the speakers. I positioned the second ladder 2' behind the first. For the Ltr/Rtr measurements, I connected the channel 15/16 output, reversing the L/R channels. I climbed the first ladder backwards so that I could face the ceiling by resting my shoulders on the top rung of the first ladder, all while supporting my body in a horizontal position with my knees bent and feet placed the rungs of the second ladder.

The Ltf/Rtf measurements were much easier. I connected the channel 11/12 output using normal L/R channel orientation. I climbed the first ladder, bent at the waist, and leaned forward over the top of the ladder holding my torso horizontal facing the floor.

The Ltm/Rtm were the easiest since no ladders were required. I connected channels 13/14 with normal L/R channel orientation. While standing on the floor facing the speakers, I bent at the waist, again leaning forward facing the ground. For all three measurements, I tried to keep my head aligned along the same vertical plane.

Before I conclude, I must thank my son for assisting me with this effort. Without his assistance, my little measurement experiment would likely have resulted in a trip to the Emergency Room.

I recognize this approach did not produce ideal measurements, only a rough approximation of properly mounted overhead speakers. But based on the Realiser A16 virtual speaker "test" function, the results for me are quite satisfactory, AND I didn't have to incur the cost of purchasing seven additional speakers. This fact alone demonstrates to me the Realiser A16 (and A8) has the best ROI of any piece of audio gear I've ever purchased.

Haha, dammit. Looks like it's back to the drawing board for me then, because I was trying to decide which inane way to approach this myself, which included ladders, shelves, a custom suspension arm etc. It would be a whole lot easier if I could simply find a single speaker stand that would go up as high as I need it to (similar to those being used in the Smyth demo videos), although I don't really feel like paying $1,000 for one either. Guess I'll just have to email them and hope they can supply the info I need.

 

[audiohobbit]

But I believe you're correct in that in the absence of an LFE channel, the LFE signal is routed to the mains. Also note, I configured all speakers as Large rather than Small so that a full range signal would be routed to all virtual speakers. I agree that configuring an Atmos 9.0.6 room would likely produce the best results from my three PRIRs.

If no subwoofer is defined, setting up a 9.0.6 room would be mandatory. Otherwise the LFE channel would be missing. I never tried it but I suppose with a 9.0.6 setup the LFE will be routed to the LR-speakers, but I'm absolutely not sure about this!
It is probably much better to create a 9.1.6 room and use a sub from the BBC or Surrey room. Since all your speakers are fullrange, this will only cover the LFE, so there won't be too much problems with bass management in the Realiser, which can be very very complicated. Only thing would be the level matching between the sub and the other channels. One could use the normalise speaker setting but you can also set the Level in the Bass management settings or in the speaker list of the Listening Room setup. Because I'm not sure if the normalise volume setting works correctly esp. for a Sub.

For a PCM 9.1.6t Room it's also probably best to configure a sub from the BBC or Surrey room or use Direct Bass for PCM and Atmos.
I haven't tried Direct Bass with the A16 so far, only with my A8. The bass sounds very dry as there are no room modes and reverb present, which we are normally used to. So you have to try it yourself.

If you want to have a 9.0.6t PCM room you can create a Custom room, this is only possible wiht PCM rooms. I think you can take the 9.1.6t Room and just remove the Sub. You have to esnure that the input channels 1,2,3 and so on match the correct speakers in the Listening Room and the Bass Management (direct LFE to L/R for example) has to be done externally.

So it's easier to use another virtual Sub or Direct bass.

I brought two 6' ladders into my listening room so I could position my body above the speakers to take measurements. I placed the first ladder 4' in front and directly in between the speakers. I positioned the second ladder 2' behind the first. For the Ltr/Rtr measurements, I connected the channel 15/16 output, reversing the L/R channels. I climbed the first ladder backwards so that I could face the ceiling by resting my shoulders on the top rung of the first ladder, all while supporting my body in a horizontal position with my knees bent and feet placed the rungs of the second ladder.

I hope you have a video of this stunt...

The Ltf/Rtf measurements were much easier. I connected the channel 11/12 output using normal L/R channel orientation. I climbed the first ladder, bent at the waist, and leaned forward over the top of the ladder holding my torso horizontal facing the floor.

If you create separate PRIRs as I understood, so one PRIR with 2 speakers Ltf, Rtf, one PRIR with Ltm, Rtm and one PRIR for Ltr, Rtr, etc. you don't have to unplug and replug all the time. You can just use the outputs 1 and 2 all the time, you just need to reconfigure the PRIR Sound room, so that 1=Ltf, 2=Rtf, and so on. This is what we did in January with 2 speakers, we created 8 PRIRs in total.
We used L and R speakers and rotated the listener, so you get all the speakers you need.

 

[audiohobbit]

I found my post from last year with the pictures how we created 12 speaker positions in 6 PRIRs from 2 LR front speakers: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/smyth-research-realiser-a16.807459/post-15369819

 

[CaptainFunk]

I really don't want to kill myself while doing similar things as @jazzfan - does anyone know what height-adjustable stands the Smyth's are using?

I guess you can see them here: http://imagizer.imageshack.com/a/img921/5577/rSVKwI.jpg

EDIT: Sure I could ask them via email but I don't really want to bother them at the moment.

 

[audiohobbit]

First of all I'm pretty sure they use studio monitors with threaded mounting holes on each side.
Quite sure that they are these Yamahas: https://www.thomann.de/intl/yamaha_hs5i.htm and/or there bigger brothers.
The stands are PA stands like these: https://www.thomann.de/intl/stands_speaker_stands.html

Only thing I can not find quickly is the right tilting adapter. It should have holes on one side where screws can be put through into the threaded mounting holes and on the other side fit onto the pole of the speaker stand.
Something similar to this: https://www.thomann.de/intl/genelec_8000_420b_wall_mount.htm
but with a hole instead of the wall mounting screw holes.

So the problem is our normal Hifi speakers do not have these threaded holes for scrweing them to such a mount. So we probably have to fabricate s.th. ourselves here.
There are also clamping mounts like these: https://www.thomann.de/intl/roadworx_wallmount_2.htm out there.
But they are not tiltable, I just showed them as an example.

 

[GeorgeA]

In Gilles Gerin’s procedure shared with dropbox - Fiche - recréer une salle virtuelle 7-1-4.pdf

https://www.dropbox.com/s/egbmn3mkkojpopg/Fiche - recréer une salle virtuelle 7-1-4.pdf?dl=0

for front ceiling speakers (Atmos) (Ltf and Rtf), he wrote:

“Lean in the Japanese way of greeting, so as to form an angle of about 30° from the vertical, towards the speakers. They are therefore now above your field of vision.”

Isn’t this approach more convenient than using height-adjustable stands?

 

[CaptainFunk]

In Gilles Gerin’s procedure shared with dropbox - Fiche - recréer une salle virtuelle 7-1-4.pdf

https://www.dropbox.com/s/egbmn3mkkojpopg/Fiche - recréer une salle virtuelle 7-1-4.pdf?dl=0

for front ceiling speakers (Atmos) (Ltf and Rtf), he wrote:

“Lean in the Japanese way of greeting, so as to form an angle of about 30° from the vertical, towards the speakers. They are therefore now above your field of vision.”

Isn’t this approach more convenient than using height-adjustable stands?

I tried that but it doesn't sound convincing to me, I'd rather go all in and do it the proper way.

 

[audiohobbit]

Do this with 7 look angles (-60, -30 ,-15, 0, 15, 30, 60) and 12 s sweeps (no overlap).
And probably add vertical looks also ...

Sitting in a chair (or on the ground) and bringing the speakers up to the ceiling sounds much more convenient to me...

 

[sahmen]

I wonder whether one could use a pair of light tripod speaker stands to so the measuring. 2 height speakers at a time, always angled toward the sweet spot. These ones can go up to 8 ft high, and that is how high my own present ceiling is:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0037GXRHM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[audiohobbit]

These are PA stands, as I already linked earlier. PA speakers usually have a "hole" (in the ground, like the Hobbit ...) at the bottom to fit onto the pole of the stand.
Look here for example, picture no. 8: https://www.thomann.de/intl/the_box_pa502_fullrangesystem.htm

Your normal speakers don't have this. And still you'd need a tilting adapter.

 

[VandyMan]

My repaired and upgraded A-16 is supposed to ship back to me today.

@jazzfan - Thanks for creating that PRIR. I'm hoping to audition the Dutch & Dutch speakers once things fully reopen here in NYC, so I'm especially interested.

 

[GeorgeA]

I’ve recently bought two KEF R3 speakers, each has four threaded holes drilled in the base. Most probably, those threaded holes were provided to fit with speaker stands. One KEF R3 speaker weighs 13.5 kg. To lift such a speaker up to the ceiling in a tilted position wouldn’t be quite safe.