[Juy777]

All i can say the Smyth brothers solved 2 of the major bugs we found within 24 hours.

Issue 1 was me and another user here in the forum having strange delay artifacts and bloated reverb when switching to factory presets.

Issue 2 was "THE BUZZ"

I asked Stephen for permission and i am allowed to quote his email, so you guys can have a better sleep:


"Julian

Thank you for your recent performance feedback.

1. You reported a problem whereby an old listening room did not appear to be replaced by a newer listening room. I have found your assertion to be correct. Old listening room data was not fully erased when loading in a new preset. A fix for this problem will be available the next firmware upgrade. In the mean time, as you have noted, the power must be cycled in order to fully flush the memory.
   
   
2. You reported that the A16 occasionally emits noise over the headphone output. This issue appears to be an intermittent problem with the A16s FPGA router. This will require some time to fully investigate. However, in the mean time I have made a number of improvements that significantly reduces its likelihood and, as a precaution, added software traps that should detect the problem as it happens and automatically apply muting on all audio outputs. Again, these improvements will be available in the next firmware update and a more complete solution in future updates.

When making a PRIR I would recommend using the 12 second non-overlapping sweep. Once you are happy with the result then you may wish to experiment with using the 12 sec overlapping or 4 second non-overlapping sweeps. It is not necessary for you to use the microSD card when making PRIR measurements. The procedure you have been using thus far is correct. I suspect the bloated reverberation artefacts you report, result from poor technique and/or lack of proper level calibration. We will upload a YouTube video in the next few days to help explain the correct procedure.

Thank you again. If you have further questions please do not hesitate to forward them to James.

Best regards

Stephen Smyth"

 

[audiohobbit]

The Masters voice!

 

[audiohobbit]

Meanwhile I encountered the second occurrence of total silence from my A16 (well, better than a loud buzz...). This time just loading a factory listening room and then going back to the other one helped. Not so severe as first time where only factory reset of the listening rooms seem to work. Still have to investigate this one.

 

[CaptainFunk]

Great news about the bugfixes, luckily I haven't encountered the "buzz" problem myself (yet). From the email it sounds like Stephen actually writes the firmware himself, I was always wondering who is programming all of this. Hats off really, for such a small company it is quite an achievement, even with all the issues people are having.

 

[dsperber]

Just sent out the first mail with the big list to James.

Just one suggestion for a tweak on my suggest regarding large bold display of SOLO/GROUP (or MUTE) along with TEST, so that you could see what's being tested from a distance (similar to white LED's on A8 panel).

I believe there are three, not just two, states of this TEST situation which should be visibly identified: SOLO, GROUP (or MUTE), and ALL.

So the display screen should show either TEST ALL, TEST SOLO, or TEST GROUP (or MUTE). Your text left out the TEST ALL value to complete the triad of states.

And your idea of having muted speakers appear simply as empty un-filled boxes (rather than outlining them in white or red which is invisible at any reasonable distance away from the screen) and non-muted speakers appear easily recognized by being filled with a green audio meter, very good.

 

[dsperber]

Well, try as I might tonight I could not reproduce "the buzz". I turned the A16 volume down to 50 to start.

I first remained just in speaker map display, and replayed that same chapter 22 five times. No buzz.

I then went to audio meters display, and again replayed the chapter another five times. Still no buzz.

I then increased the volume, and played it again several more times both in speaker map and audio meters mode. Still no buzz.

So, whatever random situation triggers it, it's definitely not easily reproduced. It's clearly nothing to do with some data on the disc, and it can't be triggered simply by being in audio meters mode.

It's gonna be tough for them to track it down. The fact that Stephen had at least a hunch about what it might be related to suggests to me that he may himself have accidentally experienced the symptom during software development, to give him some kind of a clue as to the component which is likely exhibiting the intermittent responsible for the buzz. Anyway, for the time being able to recognize that it is happening and instantly shutting down headphone outputs (both digital and analog) seems a perfectly acceptable stopgap "fix" to give them whatever real debugging time they need to actually find the culprit.


In passing, I mention that I was playing with SOLO mode again tonight. Lo and behold the VOLUME control is actually active in SOLO mode, but I'm sure that's because the speaker map display is on the screen along with the TEST output. So this is at least one other mode (aside from true normal speaker map display) where VOLUME is active, but it's kind of a 1st-cousin.

For absolute sure VOLUME is not active in audio meters mode which really is a genuinely appropriate place for VOLUME to be functional, as the L/R headphone output levels are shown for user A and B and it's intutive that given what you're watching you'd surely want the ability to adjust both user volumes while looking at the "bouncing bars" with your eyes, until you're happy with how loud it is in your ears. It's clearly just plain wrong to force a return to speaker map display mode in order to adjust the volumes.

 

[dsperber]

One other very interesting thing I noticed tonight while doing some more testing, still using my Oppo UDP-203 with audio output set to BITSTREAM (in order to support Dolby Atmos decoding via A16).

I didn't know what to expect when playing my Eagles HFO DVD, which has DTS 5.1 audio. Theoretically the A16 can't yet decode DTS, so what would happen if I left the 203 output set to BITSTREAM rather than LPCM? Well, interestingly, somehow the A16 seems to tell the Oppo that it cannot accept DTS-BITSTREAM. This apparently causes the Oppo to automatically revert to LPCM output, because that's what appears on the speaker map and audio meters of the A16, with the room converted to PCM. Doesn't matter whether I use my 5.1, 7.1, or 9.1.6 room (each of which is a separate preset). The A16 display with all three presets showed PCM, and also that it was receiving 5.1 channels of audio. So clearly the Oppo had determined what it had to do in order to feed the A16 properly.

Furthermore, comparing WHICH side speakers were being sent audio, another miracle. Turns out that when I used my 5.1 preset it was the Ls/Rs speakers (at +/- 120) which showed signal. These are the two side speakers in my AIX 5.1 room. So the Oppo was apparently sending the LPCM side channels from the DTS 5.1 source to the Ls/Rs of the A16. And yet, when I used my 7.1 preset, it was the Lss/Rss speakers (at +/- 90) which showed signal, which are the two side speakers in my AIX 7.1 room.

So, did the A16 tell the Oppo what speakers it had, and then the Oppo sent either to Ls/Rs or Lss/Rss? Or, was this magic (i.e. proper side speaker assignment so as not to lose side channel audio under any circumstances) provided through the A16 which understood what it had to do? And if it was the A16, then what actually was the Oppo sending?

Fascinating.

I then also tested a 2-channel audio CD. Once again, even with the Oppo still set to BITSTREAM output, the 2-channel audio was delivered as LPCM and the A16 triggered use of the PCM configuration (again, no matter whether using my 5.1, 7.1, or 9.1.6 room). And of course the L/R speakers received the audio signal no matter which preset was used. So once again, there's some kind of magic going on here because the Oppo is still set to output BITSTREAM while playing this audio CD, and yet the A16 shows PCM.

Still fascinating.


And, on one final comment. In particular I noticed it while playing the Otis Redding "White Christmas" track from the CD. Couldn't stop smiling.

I've played this track many many dozens of times, so I'm intimately familar with how it sounds. I've played it both (a) directly to my Stax SR-009/SRM-007tii out of my DAC, as well as (b) running through A8/A16 and AIX PRIR (either 5.1 or 7.1, as they have the same front L/R speakers in them). I have to say, the (a) vs. (b) difference is really astonishing.

Conceptually (a) is CD audio through Stax headphones, and (b) is the same audio played through the AIX sound room B&W front speakers, as virtualized by the Realiser. The same Stax SR-009 headphones are being used for the identical audio source, but the difference in sound as perceived by my brain is simply magic. The sensation of actually sitting in the AIX room with the sound coming from in front of me through these fabulous speakers is just amazing. The "simulation" through the very same SR-009 (coupled with the A8/A16 and SVS) of how the B&W speakers sounded in the volume of the AIX room with me sitting in that sweet-spot chair location at the console, I mean it's really remarkable. One is headphones, and the other is speakers.

In other words just playing CD audio through these Stax headphones... nothing. Playing that same CD audio "in the AIX room space", through the exact same Stax headphones via A8/A16... died and went to heaven. It's like being there.

What a pleasure. Not cheap, but what a pleasure. Listening to "White Christmas" and "Pretty Maids All In A row" in the virtual AIX room through the SR-009 handled by the Realiser is just stunning.


Next up... I'm going to set up the head tracker. First will be the gyro approach, to see how it works. Then I will bite the bullet and string the ST cable through the wall from the A16 in the rack, and put the ST on top of my Panny TV, to compare the results using the IR reference rather than the gyro.

But I really do want to implement the HT next.

 

[Juy777]

Hi,

we are at page 445 with this thread now. Audiohobbit put up a poll on his bug list/requested feature list which got burried meanwhile and only like 3 users voted yet.
I think its about time we create a proper sub forum where important anouncements and polls could be stickied (the release of a new firmware for example etc)
and where we could sort different threads for different topics.
There will be more and more users posting here as more and more units get delivered and i see important info could get burried too quickly.
Is it possible to create a A16 sub forum here, where we could have different threads for off topic, bug discussion, tips and tricks etc, and where we could
pin important info on top? If not we should consider migrating before it is too late

 

[audiohobbit]

it sounds like Stephen actually writes the firmware himself, I was always wondering who is programming all of this

Of course, who else? Stephen is the mastermind! I think at least all core functionality is programmed by him. Not sure what Mike does (and did), if he's also programming, seemed to me that he has more to do with the hardware.
I think that the A8 the two Smyths did nearly everything themselves, and I think they planned this also for the A16 but underestimated this and had to employ some other people (for programming the exchange website, the GUI maybe, writing the manual and so on), and that's the problem now, they have to be paid. I also think that some of them only work part-time for them.

And your idea of having muted speakers appear simply as empty un-filled boxes (rather than outlining them in white or red which is invisible at any reasonable distance away from the screen) and non-muted speakers appear easily recognized by being filled with a green audio meter, very good.

I made this proposal earlier in the thread as a reply to yours but seems you missed it. Glad that you approve. Things don't have to be more complicated than necessary (KISS- keep it straight and simple. This is something the Smyths also should consider a little more sometimes...)

SOLO, GROUP (or MUTE), and ALL.

Also simple: No SOLO, no GROUP (MUTE) = ALL. no need for extra text.

Well, try as I might tonight I could not reproduce "the buzz".

Good for you, but bad for problem-solving of course.
What did the A16 show: Dolby Atmos or Dolby Audio (7.1 presumably?). The disc has an Atmos stream (of course an up- or re-mix by the studio). The Atmos stream will always be decoded to the number of speakers you have in a preset, so if there are 9.1.6 then it should be decoded to 9.1.6
But I think you mentioned that the other HDMI out of the Oppo goes to an AVR that can't decode Atmos. So maybe that the disc/player then defaults to DD True HD 7.1, because I think it can't send Atmos to the one HDMI and 7.1 True HD to the other (though not sure about this)

appropriate place for VOLUME to be functional,

I agree that volume should work in Audio Meters mode. I put that on the list and a "one click" solution for reaching the Audio Meters from speaker map as well.
But to be honest: I don't have high hopes that these additional feature requests will ever be implemented. First they should implement the important missing features.
Not even sure if they read my long E-Mail at all...

As others already said the volume control doesn't only work in speaker map mode, also in other menus, but just not showing the big numbers (which were my idea by the way...) in the display.

Well, interestingly, somehow the A16 seems to tell the Oppo that it cannot accept DTS-BITSTREAM. This apparently causes the Oppo to automatically revert to LPCM output

Yes, others users and me too encountered this also with their Oppos. With my Panasonic-Player I can specifically set up in the menu what it should do with Dolby or DTS (send as bitstream or PCM). You can't do this with the Oppo, just set everything to PCM or bitstream. But luckily it seems to recognise that the A16 can't understand bitstream.

So, did the A16 tell the Oppo what speakers it had, and then the Oppo sent either to Ls/Rs or Lss/Rss?

No, this is more a flaw in the basic speaker layouts. At first there was only 5.1. Then 7.1 was invented. They added two channels for the back surrounds and left the otther two surround channels as they were. BUT with 5.1. the Ls and Rs shuould be at about 120°, and with 7.1 the (now) side surrounds should be at 90°. So just sending the surround channels of 5.1 signal to the side surrounds of a 7.1 signal is wrong. It should be send to side and back surrounds equally so that you have a phantom source between them that would occur to be at the spot where the surrounds would be in a 5.1. setup.
Otherwise you have to use an upmixer and they also don't do it correctly.
So it's good that you can have also a genuine 5.1 setup inthe Realiser for real 5.1 streams.

I then also tested a 2-channel audio CD. Once again, even with the Oppo still set to BITSTREAM output, the 2-channel audio was delivered as LPCM

I think this is normal, there is no bitstream on a CD, or the bitstream on the CD IS already PCM.

And of course the L/R speakers received the audio signal no matter which preset was used

This is also normal, L-R are always channels 1 and 2. Also true with AVRs etc. So if you don't use an upmixer for 2 ch you can use every preset that has L-R at the right spots (+/-30° ideally).

One is headphones, and the other is speakers.

You can use the stereo mix down function for direct comparison of course, then you'll have the dramatic effect of localisation in your head vs. out of head with one button press. Always spectacular and convincing.

I'm going to set up the head tracker. First will be the gyro approach, to see how it works

Don't use the gyro alone, you can always use the magnetic stabilisation (stabilisation is always recommended, otherwise there will be a drift with the gyro only.)
Setting up the magnetic mode is a bit complicated though (see the manual) but I think better than without any stabilisation.
I haven't tried magnetic myself. At the moment only using User A and optical (but with the set top behind me).
Since I'm going to use both HP outs (both for me, but for different headphones) and optical only works for user A I have to try magnetic one day.
Anyone have already experience with magnetic, how good it works?

 

[audiohobbit]

Hi,

we are at page 445 with this thread now. Audiohobbit put up a poll on his bug list/requested feature list which got burried meanwhile and only like 3 users voted yet.
I think its about time we create a proper sub forum where important anouncements and polls could be stickied (the release of a new firmware for example etc)
and where we could sort different threads for different topics.
There will be more and more users posting here as more and more units get delivered and i see important info could get burried too quickly.
Is it possible to create a A16 sub forum here, where we could have different threads for off topic, bug discussion, tips and tricks etc, and where we could
pin important info on top? If not we should consider migrating before it is too late

Good idea, but I'm not sure if a whole sub-forum is needed.
Ideally, if I understood this correctly, the Exchange website would have its own forum? But I wouldn't count on this.

 

[Juy777]

Good idea, but I'm not sure if a whole sub-forum is needed.
Ideally, if I understood this correctly, the Exchange website would have its own forum? But I wouldn't count on this.

Yea, ideally we should migrate to a Smyth Realiser forum, hopfully this is planned. We could archive the content from here at that Smyth Research forum
and continue there.

 

[dsperber]

Good for you, but bad for problem-solving of course.
What did the A16 show: Dolby Atmos or Dolby Audio (7.1 presumably?). The disc has an Atmos stream (of course an up- or re-mix by the studio). The Atmos stream will always be decoded to the number of speakers you have in a preset, so if there are 9.1.6 then it should be decoded to 9.1.6
But I think you mentioned that the other HDMI out of the Oppo goes to an AVR that can't decode Atmos. So maybe that the disc/player then defaults to DD True HD 7.1, because I think it can't send Atmos to the one HDMI and 7.1 True HD to the other (though not sure about this)

Good point about the main (HDMI1-out) of the 203 going to my old Yamaha RX-V867 which does not support Dolby Atmos. The older Oppo 103 had a "split A/V" mode which directed video-only out of HDMI1-out and audio-only out of HDMI2-out. They changed things with the 203, and while HDMI2-out is now always audio-only it does appear HDMI1-out is going to always carry audio as well as video even when HDMI2-out is being used (e.g. to feed an A8/A16).

When I was testing things on my now HDMI A8 location (LG OLED C7, UDP-203, HDMI A8 which of course can't support Dolby Atmos) and was using the same "Toy Story 2" 4K disc (to see how the picture looked, mostly) I noticed "DOLBY ATMOS" appeared in the upper-right corner of my LG when play began. Now I don't use the speakers on the TV, but the LG can accept HDMI input that contains Dolby Atmos audio. And if that is what audio is arriving then "DOLBY ATMOS" will be presented, same as "DOLBY VISION" displays when that type of video is arriving. So you're correct, that the 203 is clearly putting out Dolby Atmos (on HDMI1-out) if the connected device can accept it. Our question is whether or not Dolby Atmos will ALWAYS be put out on HDMI2-out if the connected device (A16) can accept it, even if the AVR connected to HDMI1-out (Yamaha RX-V867) cannot accept Dolby Atmos audio.

As it turns out, several years ago when I acquired the LG and purchased my first Oppo 203, in anticipation of an upgrade to 4K etc., I also bought a modest new AVR capable of 4K and modern audio formats, a Yamaha RX-A860. As it turns out I never installed it along with the LG HDTV because it turns out I never really needed it. I simply connect the 203 directly to the LG via HDMI-1 out, and used HDMI2-out to feed my HDMI A8 (originally I used 8-channel analog out of the 203 to feed my analog A8) for multi-channel headphone listening. And I use the stereo-mixdown feature (and L/R analog outputs, of its 8-channel preamp-out analog output set) of the Oppo to feed 2-channel analog input to my 2-channel Threshold audiophile sound system and Thiel speakers when I want to just listen through speakers. So as it turns out I never actually needed the Yamaha AVR at all, and put the rack shelf space it was going to live on to alternative use for other equipment.

I think now that I have an A16 and can actually make use of Dolby Atmos audio it is now the right time to take that A860 out of its carton, and replace my old RX-V867. For how I use the AVR It's really very much the same as the V867, other than fully supporting 4K video (if/when I upgrade my Panny) and Dolby Atmos audio (which I need support for right now). By performing this swap, I will as you suggest eliminate any possible confusion or ambiguity or issue between the Oppo 203 and A16 via HDMI2-out regarding sending Dolby Atmos to it, when the AVR connected via HDMI1-out cannot accept Dolby Atmos. You may be completely correct speculating that perhaps the 203 is simply sending Dolby TrueHD out to both devices.

So, today's project is to install the A860 in place of the V867. And then I will re-run my tests, and see what the 203 presents on its out "info" display, and what the A16 presents on its own display.

 

[audiohobbit]

Before changing the setup it would be good to recheck how things are at the moment when you play the Toy Story 2 BD, what the Realiser tells you what audio it gets.

 

[audiohobbit]

Yea, ideally we should migrate to a Smyth Realiser forum, hopfully this is planned. We could archive the content from here at that Smyth Research forum
and continue there.

On the other hand I think it's better that they don't setup a forum on their exchange website... This means just more work for them, and it will probably not open to the public and not found via web-search.
So better to keep it here on head-fi.

 

[jgazal]

Rca to Xlr cable: