[dsperber]

I’m truly happy for you. I have one question and one statement. Question: Did Smyth include your CanJam PRIR? Statement: I wouldn’t post my full name and address on any Internet forum(and, no, I don’t do Facebook, Twitter or Instagram).

Don't know yet. I haven't installed the A16 yet. Haven't done anything except unbox it, disconnect my analog-only A8, and take some pictures.

I will begin getting it installed tomorrow, including migrating my 5.1 and 7.1 A8 PRIR files from AIX along with my two Stax HPEQ's. I will also learn if they pre-installed my CanJam room Dolby Atmos PRIR.

I haven't opened the parts box yet, but I just noticed on the packing list that they DID include the two HT units I requested, along with two sets of HT cables.

 

[teacher1000]

I’m truly happy for you. I have one question and one statement. Question: Did Smyth include your CanJam PRIR? Statement: I wouldn’t post my full name and address on any Internet forum(and, no, I don’t do Facebook, Twitter or Instagram).

Mine does NOT have the PRIRs my wife and I had done at London CanJam two years running.
I will get round to asking James to email them, if they haven't been lost

Also, ironically, I have a cold and can't hear properly out of one ear right now, so although I've set it up, there's no point in me playing with it until the weekend at least

 

[Richter Di]

Mine does NOT have the PRIRs my wife and I had done at London CanJam two years running.
I will get round to asking James to email them, if they haven't been lost

Also, ironically, I have a cold and can't hear properly out of one ear right now, so although I've set it up, there's no point in me playing with it until the weekend at least

Both are bad news but the first one is a broken promise. I really hope they will send them out with the PRIR as promised. It drove to Paris and had to pay for an hotel etc. to get it done.

 

[sander99]

Replacing the A8 with an A16 simply means that I can now feed bitstream for ANY codec and for ANY NUMBER OF CHANNELS from the Oppo rather than LPCM, since the A16 can now do the decoding rather than requiring the Oppo to decode as was the case with the A8.

You seem to have missed that the A16 doesn't yet decode DTS or Auro 3D. DTS will come as a firmware update if and when DTS-certification has been achieved. Auro 3D is less certain, because there is also the problem with the conflict between Auro and the decoding chip manufacturer.
So for Dolby Atmos you must use bitstream out of the oppo. For legacy Dolby formats up to 7.1 you can choose bitstream or decoded to multichannel LPCM. For DTS you must use decoded to LPCM.

 

[sander99]

Well, in that case, it looks exactly like the one on the left of this photo below, which I already posted above. If there's any difference, I can't see it, but it really doesn't matter, how it looks like at this point... I just want to get my hands on the thing...

The shape is the same, but the one on the picture above is missing some of the denotations, and "Smyth Realiser A16" is printed horizontally above the display instead of vertically along the edge (like the older model on the right also has).

 

[audiohobbit]

@dsperber: Congrats! At least the Smyths kept this promise.
I noticed that on your shipping document the Realiser is mentioned as pre-production unit. Is this only with your unit because of serial no. 1 or is it the same for all units that have been delivered at the moment? Can anyone who also got his A16 have a look on his/her shipping document?

Concerning the PRIRs taken at the shows: I don't think that they forgot this, maybe it's too much additional effort to put every file onto the unit. I think they'll send it via E-Mail or make it available on the Exchange site. Whenever this will go live...

As far as I am concerned I don't care much about the PRIR I got recorded at the High End show in Munich. I don't think that it's a very high quality setup, it's too small for my needs (I'd need a stereo basis of about 3-3.5 metres) and the center speaker was below the tv as far as I remember, so far too low for my taste.

 

[audiohobbit]

PS: Good to see that Mike Smyth is also involved. I know from another source that he is working on the A16, but I wonder why he is not mentioned on the team on their website.

 

[Sanctuary]

I was originally looking at buying something like that before I decided to take my measurements a speaker at a time. If you’re literally looking to buy something just for the purposes for analog inputs and wouldn’t be using it for actual home theater use, you can find something used on eBay for like $60 shipped.

Sure, although who knows how long it will last, and if it will even work on the day I need it to. Was actually needing something a bit more modern for a friend, and convenience, which is where the HDMI inputs come in. Also, who knows, by the time I get my A16 in a year or whatever, they might have updated the firmware to do up to sixteen speakers over HDMI as well. In any event, we would be going from a receiver that has 5.1 inputs, so this would make the initial 7.1 measurements a lot easier.

 

[esimms86]

Mine does NOT have the PRIRs my wife and I had done at London CanJam two years running.
I will get round to asking James to email them, if they haven't been lost

Also, ironically, I have a cold and can't hear properly out of one ear right now, so although I've set it up, there's no point in me playing with it until the weekend at least

Very sorry to hear that. Get well soon.

 

[dsperber]

You seem to have missed that the A16 doesn't yet decode DTS or Auro 3D. DTS will come as a firmware update if and when DTS-certification has been achieved. Auro 3D is less certain, because there is also the problem with the conflict between Auro and the decoding chip manufacturer.
So for Dolby Atmos you must use bitstream out of the oppo. For legacy Dolby formats up to 7.1 you can choose bitstream or decoded to multichannel LPCM. For DTS you must use decoded to LPCM.

You're absolutely correct. I apologize for my relative illiteracy about the A16 as I still haven't even looked inside the manual and didn't pay super-close attention to discussions here regarding initial firmware release limitations. But now that you bring up 8-channel DTS I do remember seeing that it would not be initially supported. And so for that you are absolutely correct I would need to let the Oppo continue to decode.

Turns out my newly acquired second (used) UDP-203 is arriving today. So my mind has been working over exactly what I will redo at the viewing/listening location where the A16 will go, and how I will place things in the equipment rack. This is currently not a 4K TV location, but rather a 1080p Panny 65VT50.

I think it's finally time for me to remove my JVC HM-DT100U DVHS VCR which I haven't used in many years (I actually still own two, having sold my third some years back), a leftover from my old digital VCR taping days when my cable company still used Motorola-infrastructure DVR's that supported firewire interface to DVHS machines. This has now been replaced for me by modern DVR technology, and in particular for me implemented through Windows Media Center, Ceton cablecard-enabled 6-tuner TV card and Hauppauge 4-tuner OTA/ATSC TV card, four Linksys DMA2100 extenders to feed four HDTV's around the house, and 8TB of recording storage capacity. And I really do need the cubbyhole in my equipment rack for the new UDP-203, so that replacement here is what I will do.

Also, I've decided to keep the BDP-103 just where it is. It is currently fed through its two HDMI inputs from two DMA2100 extenders (supporting the two HTPC's I have that each run Windows Media Center for HDTV) for the Panny HDTV in this room. So these two external HDMI inputs provide 720p/1080i content. The 103 does a fantastic job de-interlacing 1080i, as well as up-converting 720p/1080i to 1080p for delivery to the TV. So I'll just leave this as is. I will also leave its audio output set to LPCM in order to support all current conventional 8-channel codecs, which may or may not currently be supported yet by the A16 in bitstream mode. And the 103 will continue to be set to "split A/V" mode with HDMI1-out video going to HDM1-in of my AVR and HDMI2-out audio going to HDMI1-in of the A16. I will also continue to use the 103 for playing conventional 1080p BluRay and DVD discs with conventional 8-track audio.

The new UDP203 will go into the cubbyhole formerly occupied by the JVC DVHS VCR. It, too, will be configured for "split A/V" mode but with audio output set to bitstream. HDMI1-out video will go to HDMI2-in of my AVR and HDMI2-out audio will go to HDMI2-in of the A16. So the 203 will support any Dolby Atmos discs I happen to play, even if at the moment I don't have a 4K TV to complement it. But someday I will make that upgrade in which case the 203 is already in place (along with my AVR which already supports 4K).

My Roku Ultra will go to the one external HDMI input of the 203. This will allow me to pass through the 203 all forms of streaming content from the Roku, including content with Dolby Atmos audio, and still deliver video through the AVR and audio through the A16. The Roku does not support Dolby Vision video content, but since I don't have a 4K TV yet at this location this is not an issue at this moment which requires an immediate solution.

This configuration also supports non-headphone listening through "party mode" of the AVR which feeds my two speakers around the TV, since audio from all sources goes through HDMI1-out (and hence to the AVR) when the HDMI2 device (i.e. the A16) is sensed in a power-off/standby state. So simply by turning off the A16 I now facilitate audio/video from HDMI1-out of either Oppo to the corresponding HDMI input of the AVR, and implicitly also from any of the three external HDMI input sources connected to the two Oppo players. So I can listen to sound through speakers instead of headphones if I want to. And I do NOT have to pass-through HDMI into and out of the A16. I simply need to feed audio-only to the A16 and use it (for any source) when I want to listen through headphones.

As far as placement of the A16 in my equipment rack, I currently have my A8 sitting on top of a DBX 14/10 EQ (for 2-channel audio analog tone control when listening through stereo speakers), in a cubbyhole that is actually tall enough to accept the A16 2U unit instead of the A8. So that's where it will go.

Connect things up with a couple of new HDMI cables, and I believe I'm good to go. I should have this up and running by tonight, once the new 203 arrives.

 

[sander99]

@dsperber : I'll give one little hint, also for everyone else who is interested:
The structure with presets containing 3 rooms allows the A16 to automatically switch to a suitable room for Dolby Atmos, DTS X, or PCM (by the way: because the A16 doesn't decode DTS yet you should for the time being create PCM rooms for DTS). However, it does not allow for automatic switching based on 7.1 versus 5.1 (if you want optimal surround speaker placement 90° or 110°-120°).
But manually it is possible by making two presets, for example one preset in which all rooms are based on a 7.1 basis and one preset in which all rooms are based on a 5.1 basis. Then for 5.1 sources you can (manually) choose the latter preset. In this 5.1 preset you can use the speakers from your AIX 5.1 PRIR in each room. In the 7.1 preset you can use the speakers from your AIX 7.1 PRIR in each room and extend them with suitable additional speakers from either the generic BRIRs or your Canjam PRIR (including the front wide speakers for a 9.1 basis if you like). Of course you can also make additional presets with rooms fully based on your Canjam PRIR and other variations.

(Also if you - now I mean anyone in general - want to use an external device supplying decoded Auro 3D via multichannel analog inputs for now you would have to make a seperate preset with a PCM room suitable for Auro3D. If later DTS decoding is implemented in the A16 we don't need to use a PCM room for DTS anymore, then we can have one preset with Atmos speakers in the Atmos room, DTS speakers in the DTS:X room - where they belong - and Auro3D speakers in the PCM room.)

(You will notice that often the rooms in one preset will end up being identical. That may seem strange but the idea is that they can be different if needed. Originally Smyth described 4 rooms in a preset in A16_UI_overview.pdf: Atmos, DTS:X, Auro3D and PCM. Becasuse the Auro3D speaker layout is really different the benefit of this preset-room structure would have been more clear if Auro3D and DTS:X decoding had been implemented.)

By the way: I suspect that it could very well be that your AIX PRIR speakers combine better with the provided generic BRIR additional speakers than with your Canjam PRIR speakers: although localisation will undoubtedly be better with the Canjam ones, they probably will add more reverb that will stand out strange in contrast to the dry AIX room. In this case it may indeed sound like an unnatural manipulated combination.

 

[dsperber]

@dsperber : I'll give one little hint, also for everyone else who is interested:...

Very useful hints. Thank you.

On a related matter that's still only in the very beginning stages of forming, I've made a phone call to Blackbird Studios in Nashville. I am awaiting a call back from the studio manager to discuss the notion of renting their Dolby Atmos Studio C (which probably could also serve for linear 5.1 and/or 7.1 measurements as well without too much additional effort). Their site says $90/hour including an engineer, but depending on how many of us would be willing to fly to Nashville for such an occasion it may be needed for more than a day or two. I will also bring up the other engineering and property rights considerations and issues that have been brought up here a few weeks ago, so that we would all simply be able to use the resulting PRIR's without any concern.

I've also written to Lorr Kramer, to see if he would be willing to be contracted for one or more days to be the "chief PRIR measurement engineer" driving the whole effort. I told him we would of course cover his travel and food/lodging expenses, as well as his time... assuming he's interested. So our "group cost/person" would not only involve paying for Studio C at Blackbird but also paying for Lorr to be there. Same as we did at AIX. Haven't heard back yet.

If this gets off the ground and we have a rough idea of about what the per-person "venue cost" would be, we'll have to start with a signup sheet to find out how many people in the US and from around the world would be willing to go to Nashville and Blackbird for such an activity. Obviously there are costs involved, so not everyone would be interested. Also, if you have your own (or easy access to a) listening location that is sufficient for your needs, you obviously would have much less interest in going to Blackbird.

More to come.

 

[Sanctuary]

A picture (or nine) is worth 1000 words.

A8 (#0001) meets A16 (#0001). Amazing!!!

That's more like it in terms of size. That's actually how big I thought the A8 was before getting one.

 

[KaiSc]

The good thing about convolution in this case is, it can only process quasi-static events - noise is a dynamic event and cannot and will not be reproduced.
Therefore any noise present while doing the PPIR and HPEQ measurements will not introduce noise in the music later auditioned over the Realizer.
Noise present during the measurements of the PPIR is handled like reverb, thus will change the room decay curve, making the reverb stronger.
And fortunately, by using a longer measurement sweep the noise can be reduced.


So these assumptions below are not valid:

I would imagine even if it could, the SINAD ratio of the binaural earphone would be the limiting factor on PRIR quality. Most of what I am reading leads me to believe that the binaural mics SINAD is l.t. 80db.

With the noise in the impulse response I think it is something like this (maybe one of the DSP experts here, like @Maestroso can correct me if I am wrong, or confirm if I am right):
The measurement is done with the sweep tones playing at a fairly loud and constant level. Let's say as an example that indeed in the resulting impulse responses of the PRIR there is noise 72 db under the full level. (By the way, I don't know if deconvolving the sweep response with the sweep to create the impulse response - I hope I describe how it works correctly - would change the noise level). Later during the speaker emulation the input signal for each speaker is convolved for each ear with the corresponding impulse response. If a certain virtual speaker is reproducing a soft sound, that soft sound is convolved with a full level impulse response, and the noise in the resulting soft sound caused by the noise in the impulse response is now 72 db under that soft level that is being reproduced, and hence inaudible. The noise is scaled down (and up) with the actual soundlevel coming from the virtual speaker so to speak, always 72 db under the actual sound level, always masked by the actual sound that is reproduced by the speaker. Only when direct sound stops and the reverberation is fading out the level difference with the noise decreases. And this probably is one of the other things that is solved by the reduced reverberation length. In other words: a 72 db s/n ratio in the impulse responses does not imply that the s/n ratio of the speaker emulation is limited to 72 db [Edit: not in the normal meaning that if your actual sound level is for example at -30 db the noise - floor - would be only 42 db below that.]. Again: this is just how I imagine it, experts please comment.

 

[dsperber]

Encouraging results on both fronts of the possible arrangement for PRIR measurements at Blackbird in Nashville, conducted by Lorr Kramer.

First, I heard back from Lorr. He's totally willing to be involved. See his response to me below.

Second, I finally got to speak with Rolff, who's the studio manager at Blackbird. He was very interested in my story, and mentioned that they'd had demonstrations of a similar product (or two) in the past, and everyone was blown away. I said that the inevitable reaction of a user at the end of a Realiser demo calibration, when the A/B test is done to compare speakers to headphones, that the confused listener inevitably asks (while still wearing the headphones) "are you going to turn on the headphones, or speakers? Which am I listening to now?" since they are at that moment actually listening to the headphones but unable to distinguish that sound from that of the true live speakers.

He was hesitant to go forward until he ran the idea past his management. He was concerned about doing something which would "give away proprietary Blackbird Studio C for free" and thus undermine its marketability as a unique for-rent mixing room. I emailed him the two Widescreen Review articles (from 2004 and 2009) about SVS, as well as pictures of the A8 and A16 and a URL to the Smyth web site. I think he was semi-inclined to allow us to rent the studio. I offered to arrange for Lorr to either phone him to answer any additional questions he might have, or even to go to Nashville to provide an A16 PRIR measurement demonstration to Rolff and the Blackbird staff (like what we are wanting to do).

Anyway, he will get back to me after some in-house discussions.

In the meantime, here is Lorr's response to me. I had asked him three questions: was he available and interested to run the PRIR measurements in Nashville, are the "ALL" sweeps limited to analog 16-channel line connections and not HDMI, and does the A16 have the ability (like the A8 does) to have longer sweeps and repeat multiple times and then average them. His answers are below.

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Hi Darryl, good to hear from you.

Your pair of #1s is indeed a museum exhibit. I'm very glad you have both and have never forgotten your support in the past.

1. Yes, I could run measurements in Nashville for you. Re cost let me think about that. (My fee had been $200 per person for the A8 locally.) Air, hotel and meal expenses could be at cost. I usually stay at a modest hotel in Nashville. I think it would be quite a good thing for us to do. I have not been to Blackbird but it is well known (especially well known for having vacuumed up many of the vintage mics out there).

2. Correct, only analog for the sweeps due to limitations of the HDMI daughterboard. There will in the future be an "asynchronous" method wherein the sweeps would come from a file that could be loaded into the studio's workstation, but not yet. I have a special A16 with balanced analog I/O via D-sub which much simplifies the studio interface but you'll need to confirm that the studio has (balanced) analog patch points for the 16 channels in both directions. One of their techs could call me with any questions. Indeed I would want to speak directly to the studio before any trip.

3. My A16 is away from me in a studio at the moment. It has fast and slow, we would of course use slow, but as I recall it does not have repeated sweeps. The reason I don't know is because I never do it. You are the only person who got x4 from me on the A8. I did x2 once or twice for others (who probably had been influenced by you!). But never otherwise nor ever again. All the measurements I've done for working pros at Skywalker and the Hollywood studios have been 12 s x1. Remember that these good studios are very quiet to begin with. Now there are more channels and therefore even more sweeps. Fortunately, on the A16 sweeps for different speakers can run at the same time (though of course at different start points so that the same frequencies do not overlap). This greatly reduces measurement time, making 16 channels practical. What adds time back is that whereas the A8 has only +/-30 degree head tracking, the A16 can go all the way to +/-180 degrees. But we need measurements at least every 30 degrees so for 360 there are six "look lefts" and five "look rights". Wide tracking is optional but I'll assume that anyone who undergoes the time and expense of a trip will want the full 360.

Lorr

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