Smyth Research Realiser A16

[dsperber]

It is really really difficult to conveniently and correctly measure a true physically multi-speaker room PRIR (which is for the room) with only yourself. At least a second person is really needed even if it's a genuine multi-speaker room and once the START button is pushed all you have to do is sit perfectly still and don't breathe through the audio sweeps sent to each speaker while looking straight ahead, and then repeat the process "looking left 30 degrees" and then again "looking right 30 degrees". The required prep of getting the microphones perfectly seated inside your ears is very difficult for you to do yourself. An external human with usable eyes and two hands to see what's going on and make sure it's perfect... that is what you pay someone else to do for you (not to mention get all of the cabling and A16 pre-measurement configuration tweaked properly).

It's kind of somewhat easier to measure the HPEQ (which is for the headphones only), but even so I have always paid someone else (i.e. Lorr) to do it all for me. I want to sit perfectly still once the mics are placed, even if it is much much shorter to "freeze" for an HPEQ measurement cycle.

Most significantly is that while the HPEQ can certainly impact the "tonal quality" and accuracy of how well the resulting PRIR/HPEQ reproduces and duplicates the true "sound" of the room when you then subsequently listen to anything real through A16/heaphones, it is the PRIR that really picks up on the ROOM's physical characteristics and especially speaker angle/distance placements relative to where you were sitting when measured.

But for both PRIR and HPEQ, having those mics correctly inserted in your ears is absolutely critical. Misplaced or ill-aligned mics can produce a PRIR or HPEQ that genuinely fails to produced the "duplicate" spatial sound of where those virtual speakers are located (in "space" outside your head) when you use the A16 and PRIR/HPEQ to play something through your headphones.

My feeling is that of the two it is the PRIR which is more critical than HPEQ in achieving successful reproduction of a listening environment through the A16. Certainly great headphones/amp/DAC help a lot, and a matching perfect HPEQ makes the A16 best using your great equipment possible. And of course the PRIR of a "real physical multi-speaker listening room" is ideal, vs. simulating it with one or two speakers and multiple body rotations and measurements. But most important in my opinion is proper microphone placement in the ears. And try not to move or breathe as it's remarkable how sensitive those mics are in picking up that type of ambient "body and clothing noise".

 

[Ciggavelli]

For some reason the sub channel always only plays on the left side of my headphones. I tried different headphones and different amps, and the same thing occurs. Is the sub channel only supposed to play on the left side? Is there a way to put the sub track in the center as opposed to just the left?

Edit: It's not my cables, dac, amp or headphones because I tested them all without the A16. It's definitely something to do with the A16. When I measure the headphones, I hear sub bass equally on the left and right sides, but when I play any music, including the test button, the sub channel is favoring the left ear cup.

Continued. I did a driver matching test without the A16 and the drivers are matched perfectly. When I add in the A16 the driver matching is off throughout the spectrum. It's really strange. Could my optical cable be causing this? Or maybe it's the HD800 measurement?

Edit: I'm going to buy another optical cable and see if it fixes the issue. I have a feeling it might be the cheap optical cable I'm using

 

[dsperber]

I also disabled the upmixer Neural:X (i.e., DTS Direct -> ON) before playing The U2 360 degrees at the Rose Bowl Blu-ray disc.

I don't understand why the 5.1 source is being "listened to" as 7.1, without an upmixer involved. Surely this doesn't make sense straightaway. But I have some thoughts.

If there are only 5.1 audio channels in the source presumably representing 5.1 source speaker placements and angles. without using an upmixer presumably it is designed to be played back to precisely again the same 5.1 speakers at their same assumed locations and angles. That is exactly what I do with my own non-immersive 5.1 preset, where I'm using my AIX 5.1 PRIR to identify which speakers are present and where they are angularly located, both for my Dolby, DTS, PCM and Auro rooms. that means Ls/Rs are present in the output speakers, to directly receive the original source Ls/Rs audio. Exactly as planned by the producer.

For my non-immersive 7.1 preset as well as the 9.1.6/9.1.2h/11.1 immersive preset wth DTS Direct -> ON so no Neural:X upmixer for non-immersive DTS source content, I use my AIX 7.1 PRIR to provide the 7.1 speaker locations. That means Lss/Rss and Lb/Rb are present... clearly different than Ls/Rs.

So is it the non-upmixer DTS decoder itself which understands that the number and locations of Ls/Rs side speakers in the 5.1 source cannot possibly be sent directly to the non-existent Ls/Rs side speakers in a 7.1 room placement. And that therefore SOME accommodation must be made, when Lss/Rss and Lb/Rb are present instead? Could there be some type of calculated interpolation of the sound which should have come out of Ls/Rs but that now must come out of Lss/Rss and Lb/Rb... even with no "upmixer" involved?

In other words, surely shutting off the Ls/Rs source channels entirely makes no sense. So the sound has to go somewhere else on the side else it will be totally lost. Given that only Lss/Rss and Lb/Rb exist, maybe it is the job of the BASIC (not Neural:X) DTS decoder to properly distribute the two Ls/Rs source to the four Lss/Rss and Lb/Rb speakers present that are really handling this "side sound".

Note that this isn't the same as LPCM handling, where the source Ls/Rs from the 5.1 audio would in fact get lost if listened to in 7.1 room unless there were a software mapping of LS/RS into just Lss/Rss and nothing sent to Lb/Rb (even though it really wouldn't sound identical to how it does listening in a 5.1 room where there does exist true Ls/Rs speakers).

==> Perhaps the actual DTS decoder is designed to accomplish this type of "interpolation" when necessary (or maybe just in this one case) to deal with playing 5.1 source audio in a 7.1 speaker listening room... having nothing to do with Neural:X upmixing. Seems fairly reasonable to try and approximate Ls/Rs with Lss/Rss + Lb/Rb.

That would explain what we are seeing.

Thoughts?

 

[Litlgi74]

For some reason the sub channel always only plays on the left side of my headphones. I tried different headphones and different amps, and the same thing occurs.

It would be good to know what PRIR you are using...

Also... To troubleshoit the subwoofer imbalance problem... I would recommend trying a flat HPEQ (no HPEQ) to better determine if the problem is indeed a microphone/headphone problem.

Flat HPEQ will allow you to hear the prir without headphone linearization. If there is no imbalance with the HPEQ set to flat... Your personal HPEQ was improperly recorded.

PS... If you send me your HPEQ... I can help you troubleshoot as to whether it was a good capture or not.

 

[makan]

Question: in terms of sound quality, would the sound coming from a DTS 5.1 blu ray source sound just as good on PCM mode vs DTS mode on the smyth. I don’t have the DTS upgrade but wonder how big of a jump would it be for concert blu ray discs…as most concert blu rays are DTS. Thanks.

 

[esimms86]

And of course, the PRIR of a "real physical multi-speaker listening room" is ideal, vs. simulating it with one or two speakers and multiple body rotations and measurements. But most important in my opinion is proper microphone placement in the ears. And try not to move or breathe as it's remarkable how sensitive those mics are in picking up that type of ambient "body and clothing noise".

I don't know if I agree with that statement. I own phenomenal Dolby Atmos and Auro 3D PRIRs produced using in person measurements taken by John of 3D SoundShop. Honestly, I've never experienced a better and more convincing PRIR. I do agree that having an HPEQ measurement taken during the same session where the PRIR is being measured is the ideal. I also agree that having an experienced person in the room with you during the capture goes a long way toward producing the best possible PRIR.

 

[Litlgi74]

would the sound coming from a DTS 5.1 blu ray source sound just as good on PCM mode vs DTS mode on the smyth.

The sound should be identical.

 

[esimms86]

Question: in terms of sound quality, would the sound coming from a DTS 5.1 blu ray source sound just as good on PCM mode vs DTS mode on the smyth. I don’t have the DTS upgrade but wonder how big of a jump would it be for concert blu ray discs…as most concert blu rays are DTS. Thanks.

I'm not convinced that concert recordings would be the gold standard as you would necessarily be receiving ambient sound out of the rears, for instance. A somewhat adventurous mix of a pop recording like the Dolby Atmos blu ray version of Dark Side Of The Moon, for instance, would make for a more telling listening experience. That, however, might not be your cup of tea, so YMMV.

 

[esimms86]

I'm still very interested in seeing a screenshot of the "About" page taken from more recently constructed A16s. Anybody?

 

[sander99]

And of course the PRIR of a "real physical multi-speaker listening room" is ideal, vs. simulating it with one or two speakers and multiple body rotations and measurements.

Sorry but it seems to me you just assume that for some reason, based on some faulty reasoning. It is really possible to get exellent results by measuring one or two speakers either in different positions or with different body orientations (or a combination of the two). There is no theoretical reason whatsoever that it can't be done. If you do measure a complete multichannel system as is in one run, all individual speakers are still measured independently from eachother (I guess that is the part you somehow don't fully grasp and makes you think what you think). Of course it is easier if you have a complete and well setup system to get a realistic sounding result, but is is really not the only way.

 

[sander99]

I don't understand why the 5.1 source is being "listened to" as 7.1, without an upmixer involved. Surely this doesn't make sense straightaway. But I have some thoughts.

If there are only 5.1 audio channels in the source presumably representing 5.1 source speaker placements and angles. without using an upmixer presumably it is designed to be played back to precisely again the same 5.1 speakers at their same assumed locations and angles. That is exactly what I do with my own non-immersive 5.1 preset, where I'm using my AIX 5.1 PRIR to identify which speakers are present and where they are angularly located, both for my Dolby, DTS, PCM and Auro rooms. that means Ls/Rs are present in the output speakers, to directly receive the original source Ls/Rs audio. Exactly as planned by the producer.

For my non-immersive 7.1 preset as well as the 9.1.6/9.1.2h/11.1 immersive preset wth DTS Direct -> ON so no Neural:X upmixer for non-immersive DTS source content, I use my AIX 7.1 PRIR to provide the 7.1 speaker locations. That means Lss/Rss and Lb/Rb are present... clearly different than Ls/Rs.

So is it the non-upmixer DTS decoder itself which understands that the number and locations of Ls/Rs side speakers in the 5.1 source cannot possibly be sent directly to the non-existent Ls/Rs side speakers in a 7.1 room placement. And that therefore SOME accommodation must be made, when Lss/Rss and Lb/Rb are present instead? Could there be some type of calculated interpolation of the sound which should have come out of Ls/Rs but that now must come out of Lss/Rss and Lb/Rb... even with no "upmixer" involved?

In other words, surely shutting off the Ls/Rs source channels entirely makes no sense. So the sound has to go somewhere else on the side else it will be totally lost. Given that only Lss/Rss and Lb/Rb exist, maybe it is the job of the BASIC (not Neural:X) DTS decoder to properly distribute the two Ls/Rs source to the four Lss/Rss and Lb/Rb speakers present that are really handling this "side sound".

Note that this isn't the same as LPCM handling, where the source Ls/Rs from the 5.1 audio would in fact get lost if listened to in 7.1 room unless there were a software mapping of LS/RS into just Lss/Rss and nothing sent to Lb/Rb (even though it really wouldn't sound identical to how it does listening in a 5.1 room where there does exist true Ls/Rs speakers).

==> Perhaps the actual DTS decoder is designed to accomplish this type of "interpolation" when necessary (or maybe just in this one case) to deal with playing 5.1 source audio in a 7.1 speaker listening room... having nothing to do with Neural:X upmixing. Seems fairly reasonable to try and approximate Ls/Rs with Lss/Rss + Lb/Rb.

That would explain what we are seeing.

Thoughts?

I was thinking something similar, but simpler: instead of "interpolation" it could be that the it simply sends Ls to Lss and Lb (half power to each), and Rs to Rss and Rb (half power each).

 

[Ciggavelli]

It would be good to know what PRIR you are using...

Also... To troubleshoit the subwoofer imbalance problem... I would recommend trying a flat HPEQ (no HPEQ) to better determine if the problem is indeed a microphone/headphone problem.

Flat HPEQ will allow you to hear the prir without headphone linearization. If there is no imbalance with the HPEQ set to flat... Your personal HPEQ was improperly recorded.

PS... If you send me your HPEQ... I can help you troubleshoot as to whether it was a good capture or not.

Thanks! I still need to figure out how to export my Hpeq. I did a factory reset though and used the hd800 hpeq and still have the subwoofer imbalance. I’m going to try listening directly out of the a16 later to see if the imbalance is still there. If it’s not, then I guess it’s my cable.

 

[Litlgi74]

Thanks! I still need to figure out how to export my Hpeq. I did a factory reset though and used the hd800 hpeq and still have the subwoofer imbalance. I’m going to try listening directly out of the a16 later to see if the imbalance is still there. If it’s not, then I guess it’s my cable.

Which PRIR?

 

[Ciggavelli]

Which PRIR?

Just the default one.

 

[Litlgi74]

Just the default one.

There are two... BBC?

Although it's not enough to not hear the subwoofer in one channel and not the other.. The BBC does have a 5db difference between the left and right channels.

PS... The 1266 TC has been by far the most challenging headphone HPEQ to capture correctly... I've all been given up on it.