GU1DO
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i am drooling over your demo description
i hope it meet my expectations specially after a very detailed post like yours,
thanks for sharing your experience.
Smyth Research Realiser A16
i hope it meet my expectations specially after a very detailed post like yours,
thanks for sharing your experience.
sahmen
Headphoneus Supremus
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Thanks for the detailed response.
Thanks for the helpful input. By the way, I was not implying any insinuations or aspersions against the Smyth Brothers or their business practices by asking for the impressions of "independent enthusiasts." I actually recognize and respect their rights to promote their product by posting favorable and supportive impressions and reviews of it on their site. Almost every business does that, and the Smyth brothers would be selling themselves short if they didn't do the same.... However, because most businesses with a hot new product do take the same approach, I find "independent," third party reviews and testimonies to be invaluable and vital, as a way of validating or serving as evidence to corroborate what the manufacturers themselves or their own handpicked reviewers claim about their product. I would think that most buyers (especially early adopters) take this same approach, and that most, if not all, manufacturers bringing a new product (such as the A16) to the market for the first time would even anticipate this, so I did not expect my insistence on "independent enthusiast" testimonies to ruffle any feathers.
Thanks.
Okay guys, I'm sold on the unit. I just pulled the trigger (paid the "pre-sale deposit", and it is all your fault <<==That is what I shall tell my wife's divorce lawyer if he should comes calling after today
Seriously though, I am grateful and am looking forward to the experience... I shall opt for the 2U "stealth" version, which I can slip into my rack very easily, and under the radar, without raising any red flags with the spouse. The other version (the prototype) looks too much like a medieval helmet or weapon, and hence too attention-grabbing to suit my "covert ops" approach
.By the way, what is supposed to happen after the "pre-sale deposit" is paid? I have a paypal receipt, but no response from Smyth Realiser... I need further instructions from them, and also I have to let them know that I am opting for the 2U version.
Thanks again for you help, guys
sander99
Headphoneus Supremus
When I payed my deposit, I afterwards sent a mail to sales@smyth-research.com (and added cc james@smyth-research.com to be on the save side) in which I explained that I had payed the deposit and asked to tell me what I stil owed them. I also asked to include a second head-tracker (that was $65 extra excluding taxes for me, I am not sure the price will be the same now). I would advice everybody to take a second head-tracker, the device can do the simulation for two people each with their own PRIR, HPEQ and headtracking, but standard comes with only one head-tracker. I think it would be silly to limit one of the two possible users to non-head-tracked operation only to save 65 dollars after spending so much money on the device.
phoenixdogfan
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So far the appeal for me of the unit lies in the access that it will provide to immersive object based audio formats (ATMOS, DTS-X, Auro-3d) via headphones... I would ideally like to have these formats operating in live "speaker-based" implementations, but that is not going to be possible for a while because of where I currently live, so the Smyth realiser solution seems the only viable option I have for now, if I want to go the 3d/object based audio route.
Think you might want to read the discussion from a few pages back. Since the A16 has 16 analog line outs. it should not only be able to function as a process/emulator in these advanced formats for headphones, but also for speakers as well. True, you would not employ your PRIRs or BRIRs when using with your own speakers, but it should be able to input a 16 channel digital feed and have the unit's ATMOS decoder do its stuff and output a 16 channel ATMOS feed for your amps and speakers if that's what suits your fancy.
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sahmen
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Nice. I agree that I have a lot of reading to catch up on.
sahmen
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Thanks for these tips. The second head-tracker suggestion is really helpful. I have already sent one e-mail to the sales@smyth.. address.. I shall send them another one asking for the extra head-tracker to be included in the remaining balance, and I shall add james@smyth... to the list of addressees.
raband
500+ Head-Fier
Yep - Ordered and paid for the 2nd tracker when I got the balance due email.
Richter Di
1000+ Head-Fier
Does anyone of you have some insights how the workflow of the production of the A16 is organized. Somehow I got the impression that all parts are shipped to the Smyth brothers and they assemble them themselfs.
Fox1977
500+ Head-Fier
That's also my understanding. In their communications, they seem to imply that they will assemble all the units themselves, test them and set them up (with the PRIR made during the exhibitions for example) before shipping them.
sahmen
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Here's noob question : Does the A16 have any in-built amps (like receivers do), or do they rely on external amps to power the 16 virtual speaker channels the simulate? (I am a bit embarrassed to admit that I can't find any information about that in the literature I have read. I know it is supposed to have an on-board DAC, but I do not understand how it is going to manage or handle its amplification needs). I do have normal two channel (even balanced) head amps that I use with my headphones, and I am assuming that they should be okay to handle any signals that are fed them by the A16... I guess the confusion arises when I compare the way 3d multichannel/object based audio is handled by Pre pros and AVRS in which case, each speaker channel has its own individual channel of amplification, and the A16 which can simulate the action of 16 separate speakers---in which case, I am not getting how my regular two channel headamps are going to support all the 16 virtual speaker channels that the A16 can allegedly simulate...
Can someone kindly explain how that works (facepalm from asking what could be a potentially embarrassing question)
Can someone kindly explain how that works (facepalm from asking what could be a potentially embarrassing question)
The A-16 has two built-in headphone amps. You can also use the analog output to feed your headphone amp. Or, you can use the digital output to feed a DAC and headphone amp. The output is two channels, not 16. Only two channels of amplification are required.
sander99
Headphoneus Supremus
For use with the headphone VandyMan is correct.
For use with real speakers you will have to need external (power-) amplification. There are analog outputs for all 16 channels (in the form of 8 stereo 3.5mm mini jack connectors).
[Edit: NOT TRUE:] Also up to 8 (or 7.1) channels can be assigned to be output as multichannel pcm over the HDMI out.
I am going to use 2 7.1 receivers, [Edit: NOT POSSIBLE:] my latest with HDMI input supporting 7.1 channel pcm, and my previous reveiver that I never sold (lucky coincidence) that has no HDMI but 7.1 analog inputs. And maybe get an old stereo amp to have all 15 or 16 channels.
Instead it is also possible to connect power amplifiers (or active speakers!).
Btw: note that the Realiser will not be able to do for example full 9.1.6 Dolby atmos, but as far as they know now at most 7.1.6 or 9.1.2 (earlier Smyth even thought it would be 7.1.4 maximum). However with the illusoic upmixer it can be further upmixed to 9.1.6 (but if that would give a usefull result or would be somehow unnatural I don't know).
I added some more:
Sahmen, I was a little bit to quick with my last post I did not read the question good enough.
I now see that you seem not to have understood the whole underlying principle of the device.
You have only 2 ears, yet you can hear where sound is coming from (within certain limitations of course). The brain uses all kind of information to determine that, and I could mention them all here but actually you don't even need to know exactly what it is. All that needs to be done to recreate the same experience as listening to 16 speakers in a room is making sure that the exact same signals that enter your ears when you listen to real speakers will enter your ears when listening to NORMAL STEREO headphones. That is what the realiser does. It measures the total net result that enters your ears as a result of the testsweeps being played over the speakers (per speaker per ear, so in fact 2x16 "transfer functions"), including all colourations from bending around your head and into your ears, including all reflexions and reverberations and their colourations from bending etc. etc.
With the result of this measurement (the PRIR) the Realiser can later apply the same changes to any source signal (music or whatever in any of the supported formats from mono to multichannel) you feed to it, creating the sensation of hearing the same source signal being played over the speakers.
Digital Signal Processing creates a stereo signal intended for the headphone based on up to 16 input signals and 32 channel to ear transferfunctions, a abstract description of what it calculates (without taking the headtracking into account) could be:
LeftOutput = TransferfunctionSpeaker1toLeftEar(InputSignalChannel1)
+ TransferfunctionSpeaker2toLeftEar(InputSignalChannel2)
...
+ TransferfunctionSpeaker16toLeftEar(InputSignalChannel16)
RightOutput = TransferfunctionSpeaker1toRightEar(InputSignalChannel1)
+ TransferfunctionSpeaker2toRightEar(InputSignalChannel2)
...
+ TransferfunctionSpeaker16toRightEar(InputSignalChannel16)
[Edit: October 11, 2017 have received information from Smyth: unfortunately the HDMI board that will be used in the Realiser A16 supports only 2 channels of LPCM over the HDMI out, see my post on October 10, 2017. The previous board did support 8 channels but not HDR. The next board (in future versions) does support 8 channels and HDR. That's why I am making some corrections to statements that are based on the original Smyth plans that are no longer possible.]
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sahmen
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I realize the my question was probably not framed clearly enough. This is what I meant: because I am going to use the A16 with headphones, I know that only two channels of amplication will be required. So my question was more about the 16 channels of **simulated** speakers one is supposed to hear through one's headphones thanks to those two channels of amplification... If you like, how does the A16 enable those 2 amplified channels on your ears to create the illusion of up to 16 virtual separate "amplified" channels that resemble those you would hear were you actually listening to 16 actual speakers in a 3d immersive system, without headphones...
I hope that has made my question clearer...
Sander99 : you're correct that I really don't/didn' understand the underlying principle governing the way the A16 works, but the second part of your answer has been very helpful . I am understanding that the A16 uses the PRIR measurements to create some magic that virtually replicates the sound of the appropriately positioned live speakers whose sounds have been measured in the room or setting, and, then when the headphones are positioned on my head, it tricks my brain into feeling as if I am actually listening to those live speakers rather than headphones... If that is the basic mode of operation, then I get it in that basic form. A lot of the intricate technicalities involved in that "magic" of calibration and virtualization still escape me, but the basic clarification should do.
Thanks a lot.
Here is a non-technical way to think about it. You have two ears, yet you hear sounds all around you. So, even though hear in two channel (an over-simplification), your brain is able to perceive where sounds come from. This is called Sound Localization. Wikipedia describes our brain's ability to localize sound pretty well: "The auditory system uses several cues for sound source localization, including time- and level-differences (or intensity-difference) between both ears, spectral information, timing analysis, correlation analysis, and pattern matching." What the A16 is doing is converting multi-channel to two channel in such a way as to preserve/enhance this information that your brain uses.
[Edit: Just noticed that sander99 said pretty much the same thing above, but I'll leave this incase it is helpful.]
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castleofargh
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I want to try too. having a lifetime experience of being a noob, maybe I'll somehow make some sense. ^_^
when a sound comes from a given direction, let's say 30°left, it reaches the left ear first and then the other ear with a given delay(depending on the size of the listener's head and distance between the ears). some frequencies being blocked by the listener's face, a given attenuation and signature will enter the right ear. that change will be specific to the position of the sound source and the head of the listener. in real life we can tell the general direction of a sound source thanks mainly to delays and signature changes/attenuation between the 2 ears(ILD and ITD cues, Loudness and Time).
we use some improved triangulation between the source and both ears. and what our brain analyzes anytime something makes a noise, is a stereo signal(one per ear) for what really was one sound source/one channel.
when you calibrate the A16, you will look at a specific positions and the A16 will analyze the sound reaching your two ears for that sound source and that position. then you'll calibrate using the headphone, and the A16 will use all that information to simulate and send into the headphone a stereo signal the ears should normally receive for that speaker at that given position. it's simplified a good deal but that's really the main idea.
now no matter how many speakers you have in your system, you will make a calibration for each one of them. so when you play some multichannel music on your headphone, the channel that was normally sent to the left speaker will be altered by the A16 based on the left speaker calibration. the channel usually going into the right speaker will be altered based on the right speaker calibration, etc. each channel will be treated independently and turned into an independent stereo signal. only when getting out of the A16 will they all end up sent into the same headphone.
in case the idea of mixing many sounds down to a single stereo signal isn't intuitive, I'll simply remind that we only have 2 ears and yet we do enjoy a band playing. and we can close our eyes and tell the general direction of each instrument and recognize said instruments. there is no issue with having several sounds mixed down to stereo because that's what our ears do in the end anyway. (and the signal doesn't mind because of wave magic. which might deserve a specific topic about sound waves in general.
)
and of course what I explained here is only about position cues, in reality the signature of each speaker, the reverb from the room and even more are also captured and replicated to some level by the A16. which should make for a pretty good result as long as the headphone used isn't total low- fidelity garbage.
when a sound comes from a given direction, let's say 30°left, it reaches the left ear first and then the other ear with a given delay(depending on the size of the listener's head and distance between the ears). some frequencies being blocked by the listener's face, a given attenuation and signature will enter the right ear. that change will be specific to the position of the sound source and the head of the listener. in real life we can tell the general direction of a sound source thanks mainly to delays and signature changes/attenuation between the 2 ears(ILD and ITD cues, Loudness and Time).
we use some improved triangulation between the source and both ears. and what our brain analyzes anytime something makes a noise, is a stereo signal(one per ear) for what really was one sound source/one channel.
when you calibrate the A16, you will look at a specific positions and the A16 will analyze the sound reaching your two ears for that sound source and that position. then you'll calibrate using the headphone, and the A16 will use all that information to simulate and send into the headphone a stereo signal the ears should normally receive for that speaker at that given position. it's simplified a good deal but that's really the main idea.
now no matter how many speakers you have in your system, you will make a calibration for each one of them. so when you play some multichannel music on your headphone, the channel that was normally sent to the left speaker will be altered by the A16 based on the left speaker calibration. the channel usually going into the right speaker will be altered based on the right speaker calibration, etc. each channel will be treated independently and turned into an independent stereo signal. only when getting out of the A16 will they all end up sent into the same headphone.
in case the idea of mixing many sounds down to a single stereo signal isn't intuitive, I'll simply remind that we only have 2 ears and yet we do enjoy a band playing. and we can close our eyes and tell the general direction of each instrument and recognize said instruments. there is no issue with having several sounds mixed down to stereo because that's what our ears do in the end anyway. (and the signal doesn't mind because of wave magic. which might deserve a specific topic about sound waves in general.
)and of course what I explained here is only about position cues, in reality the signature of each speaker, the reverb from the room and even more are also captured and replicated to some level by the A16. which should make for a pretty good result as long as the headphone used isn't total low- fidelity garbage.
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