[sander99]

My speakers are KEF R3. Does it matter how I put them flat? As in option A or B?

Ah, coaxial is an advantage in this case, now laying them flat sure doesn't create any problems for the perceived horizontal direction (not sure that a small sideways distance between tweeter and midranger could, but now there is no problem for certain).
The center of the tweeter (so the center of the coaxial driver) would define the origin point of the sound, so that should be at the desired angles.
Woofer inside or outside: doesn't really matter for the perceived position. It could be that one sounds better than the other because of other distances from the woofer to ceiling and side walls, and depending on your over all acoustics but there is no way for me to say what's best. Except: one little advantage of having the woofer inside would be that after toeing in the coaxial driver would be the most forward driver, so less chance it's sound is influenced by the top of the bookcases.
Look, if you really wanted to do it all perfect you would have to ask acoustic experts, do measurements, use room treatment, room eq, etc. etc. Otherwise just do what is most practical and hope for the best...

Now with this arrangement you could measure the ltf and rtf, and looking away from the speakers the ltr and rtr. But what are you going to do for ltm, rtm? You could do those one by one by first sitting such that one of the two speakers - the one that you measure - is on your left side (for the looking forward measurement) and then such that one speaker is on your right side (if you use the other speaker for that then you don't have to change connections).

Alternatively you could just sit in front of the speakers on the bookcases and bend forward such that the top of you head points to the line between the speakers, then you could measure those 2 together to keep things simple.

When I did my 9.1.6 measurement with two speakers I did a few channels one by one, and I didn't have any problems. Others had problems with single speaker measurements but I wonder maybe those problems only arised when trying to create PRIRs all containing one speaker?
Is your plan to create one PRIR with all the channels (replugging cables), or a number of 2 channel PRIRs (without replugging cables)? In both cases you can split the step for ltm and rtm in two without changing connections (inbetween measuring ltm and rtm I mean) and while putting them together in one PRIR (either the one big PRIR with all channels, or a 2 channel PRIR for ltm and rtm).

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Is there a way of giving each prir you do a distinctive name, so you can pick it out. I plan, for example to measure each height speaker with me sitting on the floor and with me sitting in a chair rougly 18 inchess tall and I would like to be able to distinguish between the two prirs in the realiser. Otherwise things are liable to get very confusing very fast,

 

[VandyMan]

So basically drop the first band down to the point where you can barely hear it and then try to match the rest of the bands by lowering them to match?

Correct. But make sure to select "Equal-L-20" from the Curve menu (default is "Flat"). When comparing, bump it down until it is inaudible and then raise it until you hear it again.

 

[GeorgeA]

......I will also move one speaker to the center and disconnect the other while still keeping the sub on when doing the center-sub PRIR. I also plan to move the speaker out wider when I measure LW and RW.......

Why don’t you use @audiohobbit method (Post #7,567) as it’s more handy: you don’t need to move the speakers or connect/disconnect cables.

 

[GeorgeA]

......................
Is your plan to create one PRIR with all the channels (replugging cables), or a number of 2 channel PRIRs (without replugging cables)? In both cases you can split the step for ltm and rtm in two without changing connections (inbetween measuring ltm and rtm I mean) and while putting them together in one PRIR (either the one big PRIR with all channels, or a 2 channel PRIR for ltm and rtm).

Thanks again for your suggestions. I’d like to use @audiohobbit method for measuring speakers at the ear level. Moreover, I think that the previously mentioned method, i.e., creating a number of 2 channel PRIRs (without replugging cables), might be also used for the ceiling speakers, as the left and right front height speakers and left and right rear height speakers.

For the left and right top middle overhead speakers, your second suggestion is quite convenient.

Alternatively you could just sit in front of the speakers on the bookcases and bend forward such that the top of you head points to the line between the speakers, then you could measure those 2 together to keep things simple.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Why don’t you use @audiohobbit method (Post #7,567) as it’s more handy: you don’t need to move the speakers or connect/disconnect cables.

In just gave that a real close look and it clicked in big time. Yes, I will use that method tomorrow. I've had issues setting up the rig (wires everywhere) and it's taken me this long just to get the thing prepped. Now I'm confident I can actually proceed and do the PRIRs. I'm actuall going to add two speakers (LS and RS, I was previously only going to capture Lss and Rss), since it's so easy, and will make for a legitimate 5.1 PCM room.

 

[Litlgi74]

In just gave that a real close look and it clicked in big time. Yes, I will use that method tomorrow. I've had issues setting up the rig (wires everywhere) and it's taken me this long just to get the thing prepped. Now I'm confident I can actually proceed and do the PRIRs. I'm actuall going to add two speakers (LS and RS, I was previously only going to capture Lss and Rss), since it's so easy, and will make for a legitimate 5.1 PCM room.

@audiohobbit method is quite efficient. And you're right... The prep is what takes the longest time. Have your kids said you look like a Teletubby yet? Lol I do hope they come out with a wireless option soon.

In preparation for my recording studio time... I plan on using some large sheets of poster paper with all of the look angles pre-drawn so I can just place the speakers and my chair in the correct position... Doing this, should make the PRIR measuring process much quicker.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

@audiohobbit method is quite efficient. And you're right... The prep is what takes the longest time. Have your kids said you look like a Teletubby yet? Lol I do hope they come out with a wireless option soon.

In preparation for my recording studio time... I plan on using some large sheets of poster paper with all of the look angles pre-drawn so I can just place the speakers and my chair in the correct position... Doing this, should make the PRIR measuring process much quicker.

Makes me look like a Reddit Snootvaar!

 

[audiohobbit]

Is there a way of giving each prir you do a distinctive name, so you can pick it out.

I'm pretty sure that I wrote this already.
First of all if we create individual 2 speaker PRIRs according to the method I proposed, we have to re-edit the PRIR sound rooms several times (unfortunately you can only set up two rooms at the same time, so after two measurements you have to go back to the PRIR sound room editing). So we can easily rename the PRIR sound room and that descriptor will be in the PRIR name afterwards. So when I set up the first two rooms for left, right, center and sub I name them "Room_xxx_LR" and "Room_xxx_CSW" and so on.
Use short names as the number of characters shown afterwards is limited.
Since FW1.80 we can easily rename subject and room for PRIRs and subject and headphone for HPEQs in the file menu afterwards. See. FW1.80 update manual p. 17.
Just go to the file menu, select a PRIR, then click down to the appropriate field and click enter. Then you can edit those names. Also take short names as the length shown on screen when selecting the files are limited. You have to try it yourself a little bit.

Correct. But make sure to select "Equal-L-20" from the Curve menu (default is "Flat"). When comparing, bump it down until it is inaudible and then raise it until you hear it again.

Yes Equal loudness 20 (for 20 phon) would be the target curve in that case. But I have to say I tried this and it even harder for me to decide where is the threshold when it became audible and when not. You should also have a very quiet environment. And then when I turned the volume down, initally I couldn't hear it anymore, but then you more and more concentrate and then you can still hear it. So it's very hard. For me it's easier to get several bands on the same perceived volume.

creating a number of 2 channel PRIRs (without replugging cables), might be also used for the ceiling speakers,

Yes of course. In the room we did this there were already front and rear top speakers. So we used one pair of them (in this case the rear ones) to create 4 top speakers. We didn't do top mids. Since thos top speakers were alread angled at the sweet spot, and we sat at the sweet spot, and they couldn't be moved or rotated it would have been not ideal if we sat between them to create top mids, because they would have been facing away from us.
But if you can move your speakers then you can also create top mids.
As long as you can bring your speakers into their "real" position where they should be in the real system, then your look angles are of course the same as for the ear level speakers.
So if you can mount 2 speakers as top speakers at let's say 30 deg azimuth and 45-60 deg. elevation then you can put the set top where the center would be and look left/right as in all previous measurements (plus up/down if you want to create vertical looks) to create top fronts. For top rears you can then turn 180 deg and also move the set top to the back or just rotate the head top in the head band by 180 deg (only doable if you use the HT guided measurement with pilot tones and ideally the versio where the measurements starts automatically when you reached the correct angle).
For the top mids you have to sit between those two top mounted speakers and point them at your new sweet spot.

If you can or will not move your speakers and try to bend your head up and down to get top speakers then things will get much more complicated....

 

[GeorgeA]

Thanks for the detailed explanations.

 

[VandyMan]

Yes Equal loudness 20 (for 20 phon) would be the target curve in that case. But I have to say I tried this and it even harder for me to decide where is the threshold when it became audible and when not. You should also have a very quiet environment. And then when I turned the volume down, initally I couldn't hear it anymore, but then you more and more concentrate and then you can still hear it. So it's very hard. For me it's easier to get several bands on the same perceived volume.

Yeah, I was playing with manLoud last night and did not find this technique to be as helpful as I thought it would be. I got annoyed with the tiny screen and poor UI, so I gave up before giving it a full try though. I'll revisit another day.

 

[audiohobbit]

Well the tiny screen has nothing to do with the manLOUD target curve. So are you referring especially to the equal loudness 20 procedure or the manLOUD procedure overall?

Have you ever seen a Realiser A8 in action?
Then you would probably never again call the UI of the A16 poor...
For former A8 users the (G)UI of the A16 is like heaven. Especially the manual HPEQ, the A8 had this also somehow but it was just too complicated that I ever tried it...
Without the manual you can switch the A8 on and off, change the volume and select one of four presets. For anything else you need the manual.
There's no real menu structure there.
For many operations you have to press one key (like MENU, or the !-key) and then another key. No one (except for Stephen) can remember this... it's like programming a VCR in the early 90s...

 

[VandyMan]

Well the tiny screen has nothing to do with the manLOUD target curve. So are you referring especially to the equal loudness 20 procedure or the manLOUD procedure overall?

Have you ever seen a Realiser A8 in action?
Then you would probably never again call the UI of the A16 poor...
For former A8 users the (G)UI of the A16 is like heaven. Especially the manual HPEQ, the A8 had this also somehow but it was just too complicated that I ever tried it...
Without the manual you can switch the A8 on and off, change the volume and select one of four presets. For anything else you need the manual.
There's no real menu structure there.
For many operations you have to press one key (like MENU, or the !-key) and then another key. No one (except for Stephen) can remember this... it's like programming a VCR in the early 90s...

No, I'm referring to the tiny screen that I had to stare at for twenty minutes while adjusting two sets of tiny bars that required a press of the volume key for each step (no auto repeat).

The poor A8 UI is not an excuse for having a poor UI on the A16. Don't go all fanboy on us.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

One final quick question for the group. I put this measurement off for one more day, b/c there was a fair amount of noise around the house today, and I know tomorrow will be much more quiet.
,
I still have one question though. I seems to me I can do AudioHobbits PRIR capture method one of two ways.

1. I can just asign a speaker label for each of the outputs--like "12" for Rb and "3" for sub and just select those two and plug up the output A16 output so assigned for each of the six PRIRs which would of course necessitate replugging after each PRIR.

2. I can just re-assign outputs 1 and 2 with the speakers I wish to capture for each PRIR. which would necessitate changing the labels for outputs 1 and 2 for each of the six PRIRs.

Does it make a difference which I do? Will each method work? I have the A16 on a table in front of me, so it's no problem to replug, and likewise, it's not problem to reassign speakers to the output I want. Will it make any difference? I think, for example, as long as my Listening room has a"Ltb" speaker, it's not really going to matter which A16 output was used to make it as long as the souce speaker has the correct geometric relationship (Ltb in this example) to my head's listening position, and I properly did my "headtracking Asist" Kabuki dance.

Amirite?

 

[sander99]

One final quick question for the group. I put this measurement off for one more day, b/c there was a fair amount of noise around the house today, and I know tomorrow will be much more quiet.
,
I still have one question though. I seems to me I can do AudioHobbits PRIR capture method one of two ways.

1. I can just asign a speaker label for each of the outputs--like "12" for Rb and "3" for sub and just select those two and plug up the output A16 output so assigned for each of the six PRIRs which would of course necessitate replugging after each PRIR.

2. I can just re-assign outputs 1 and 2 with the speakers I wish to capture for each PRIR. which would necessitate changing the labels for outputs 1 and 2 for each of the six PRIRs.

Does it make a difference which I do? Will each method work? I have the A16 on a table in front of me, so it's no problem to replug, and likewise, it's not problem to reassign speakers to the output I want. Will it make any difference? I think, for example, as long as my Listening room has a"Ltb" speaker, it's not really going to matter which A16 output was used to make it as long as the souce speaker has the correct geometric relationship (Ltb in this example) to my head's listening position, and I properly did my "headtracking Asist" Kabuki dance.

Amirite?

Will you be able to mute - or switch off - your amp from where you are sitting? I think it would be wise to do that during every cable swap. If that is problematic then the choice is easy: do the other thing changing the labels.

ATTENTION: Remember to get the proper gain settings for all measurements. If you are going to replug you either have to manually copy gain values from the channels that you did the level calibration with (the smallest of the 2 gains for all speakers), or repeat the level calibration every time. Each time that you move the speakers in different positions - don't know if you are going to do that - then you would have to do a new level calibration I think. This last point would also apply if you change labels instead of connections. Oh, and beware that after each level calibration all gains for the other channels are reset to some default value so it has no use to already set the proper gains in the beginning for all channels that come after a new level calibration.

I think because of this gain stuff it is easier to just change labels (and do a new level calibration each time you move the speakers, if you do). [Edit: then you don't have to copy any gain values.]