[illram]

Yeah I'm satisfied with the idea of just doing the single speaker measurement method with one of my JBL LSR305's. They're decent enough speakers and I'm going more for positioning than anything else.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Wow, all I can say is if I get the Realizer A16 I'm going to be looking for someone with Kii3s, Dutch & Dutch 8cs, Linkwitz LX 521s, Kef Blades, JBL Everests, Magnapan 30.7s, Quad 989s, Wilson Alexandrias, Aerial 20ts, Original Large Apogee Ribbons, Avalon Eidolons, Magico Q7 Mk2s, Beolab 90s, and YG Sonja 1.3s. And that will just be for starters.

B/c the only real point in having it is to have the million dollar system you have neither the money nor room for in your normal life.

 

[sahmen]

Wow, all I can say is if I get the Realizer A16 I'm going to be looking for someone with Kii3s, Dutch & Dutch 8cs, Linkwitz LX 521s, Kef Blades, JBL Everests, Magnapan 30.7s, Quad 989s, Wilson Alexandrias, Aerial 20ts, Original Large Apogee Ribbons, Avalon Eidolons, Magico Q7 Mk2s, Beolab 90s, and YG Sonja 1.3s. And that will just be for starters.

B/c the only real point in having it is to have the million dollar system you have neither the money nor room for in your normal life.

I've got to say, I like your spirit and style... Personally, I mostly use Polk LSIM series speakers all around the house, and I enjoy therm very much. Still, the A-16 comes with the opportunity to enjoy alternative sound systems, and more importantly, higher-end and better performing systems, and I would really like to benefit from these alternatives, as long as I can find them without much difficulty. If I can find some eligible studios or well-equipped brick and mortar stores in the New England area where I can have some really butt-kicking PRIRs done using some super-high end speakers, I'll be all over them like bees on honey... I shall of course have one PRIR done, by myself, with my own in-house Polk LSIM speakers, but that will be largely for practice or training purposes, as I would like to have some first hand familiarity with the PRIR capture process, and its navigation.

 

[Fox1977]

B/c the only real point in having it is to have the million dollar system you have neither the money nor room for in your normal life.

That's not the one real point in having it... I live in an apartment, i sold my speakers because i watch movies mostly in the even when my kids is in bed, and i didn't either want issues with my neighbours and what's the point in having decent speakers and a big subwoofer if i have to listen to a low volume and cannot let the system fully develop its power ?
The A16 will allow me to enjoy a full Atmos system at a decent volume and i won't be bothering anyone around. I should receive my unit with the 7.1.4 PRIR that i captured in Paris two years ago and for which i couldn't distinguish the headphones from the actual speakers. It's not the best system, but since i don't know yet when/if i get a chance to capture a higher end installation, so in the meantime, i'll still be able to enjoy movies with 3D multichannel sound.
If BRIRs customized with our HRTF work as good as hoped, then i'll get a chance to even enjoy 9.1.6 Atmos or DTS:X soundtracks.

 

[SergioPOE]

If I understand all the technobabble correctly (which is a big "if"), once you get a PRIR done with any old speakers. Smyth should be able to work its magic and apply that PRIR to a different set-up captured with much better speakers, albeit at a price.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I've got to say, I like your spirit and style... Personally, I mostly use Polk LSIM series speakers all around the house, and I enjoy therm very much. Still, the A-16 comes with the opportunity to enjoy alternative sound systems, and more importantly, higher-end and better performing systems, and I would really like to benefit from these alternatives, as long as I can find them without much difficulty. If I can find some eligible studios or well-equipped brick and mortar stores in the New England area where I can have some really butt-kicking PRIRs done using some super-high end speakers, I'll be all over them like bees on honey... I shall of course have one PRIR done, by myself, with my own in-house Polk LSIM speakers, but that will be largely for practice or training purposes, as I would like to have some first hand familiarity with the PRIR capture process, and its navigation.

Thing is, we don't know a lot of things about the A16 system.

For instance the binaural microphones: I can go on Amazon and look up binaural measurement microphones, and guess what--Their S/N ratio is oinly 72 db. If the A16s mics have a similar S/N ratio, that's a dealkiller right there, because the emulation can only be to the level of that S/n ratio.

And that will be true of any part of the A16 chain--it won't be any better than its poorest measuring link whether that be the mixer, the digital converters, the amplification components, etc. That's why I believe it's sooo important they get this thing reviewed and measured by competent objective reviewers.
I, for one, want to see if the DACs measure any better than say Jottenheim's, how the mics measure up, whether there are any problems with linearity anywhere in the circuit, how comprehensible the manual is, how well it explains the options available, and all that other stuff.

So far, all that's really happened are closely supervised demonstration by the Smyth's themselves in crowded noisy audio shows with what seems to be mid fi surround equipment.

That hardly gives anyone an idea of what this particular unit will be capable of. And neither does the performance of the A8 for that matter.

There is simply no substitute for hands on, detailed testing by competent objective reviewers, as well as feedback from satisfied customer/early adopters regarding the quality and efficacy of this product.

If all I wanted was something to listen to generic surround sound late at night, I already have it in OOYH (works pretty damn well for me, YMMV), and my two phones (HD 800 and LCD X).

No, a $4k spend needs to be a huge, proven upgrade to justify it.

 

[Richter Di]

So far, all that's really happened are closely supervised demonstration by the Smyth's themselves in crowded noisy audio shows with what seems to be mid fi surround equipment.

At least in Paris 2 years ago they had rented an hotel room to demonstrate and it was otherwise silen in the room. And yes, it sounded amazing.

 

[Fox1977]

If all I wanted was something to listen to generic surround sound late at night, I already have it in OOYH (works pretty damn well for me, YMMV), and my two phones (HD 800 and LCD X).

No, a $4k spend needs to be a huge, proven upgrade to justify it.

OOYH works quite fine for me too To my perception, with the room that i like best, i'd locate speakers around 1m from my head, yet it's hard to really pinpoint virtual speakers, especially for the front ones.
Had i had to spend 4290€ for the A16, i'd never had crossed that step. But as a backer, i got it all in all for around 1150€ and i didn't let that opportunity go.
I think that clearly with this new price, the target clearly moved mostly to professionals, as well as financially very comfortable hi-fi enthusiasts.
Possibly Heavenly Sound led Smyth Research to change plans, increasing considerably the retail price of the A16 and develop a simpler version of it in a close future, stripped to the basic functions (capture a room and reproduce it with SVS algorithm) that could be sold around 2000€, maybe less, to aim at a wider market (and still make bigger profit)

At least in Paris 2 years ago they had rented an hotel room to demonstrate and it was otherwise silen in the room. And yes, it sounded amazing.

As i said before already, i concur with Richter Di, the hotel room was on a different floor from the rest of the exhibition, very quiet, so that the sound system could be measured in fine conditions. It was not high end speakers, but the Atmos configuration was convincing to me.
And once captured, it really did the trick. I know that when i listen to it at home, it will be the same room that i listen to, and for which i could precisely pinpoint each and every speaker in the exact location that i could see them, and if my brain manages to get over the fact that i will not see any speaker around me, i will already be content with that for a while...

 

[Chillzone21]

(Other than sound professionals) the people who are going to get the most out of the A16 are hobbyists, but Smyth himself has said that people significantly underused the A8. Clearly this will be a sophisticated device but - if you really want to - there's no reason why an amateur shouldn't get good results.

I been using mine everyday for about 4 years now, and I got my A8 secondhand. Damn fine unit, super reliable and has not let me down once, only the remote control power button went, needed a new remote. Smyth was pretty quick in sending me a new one.

 

[jgazal]

Wow, all I can say is if I get the Realizer A16 I'm going to be looking for someone with Kii3s, Dutch & Dutch 8cs, Linkwitz LX 521s, Kef Blades, JBL Everests, Magnapan 30.7s, Quad 989s, Wilson Alexandrias, Aerial 20ts, Original Large Apogee Ribbons, Avalon Eidolons, Magico Q7 Mk2s, Beolab 90s, and YG Sonja 1.3s. And that will just be for starters.

B/c the only real point in having it is to have the million dollar system you have neither the money nor room for in your normal life.

Thing is, we don't know a lot of things about the A16 system.

For instance the binaural microphones: I can go on Amazon and look up binaural measurement microphones, and guess what--Their S/N ratio is oinly 72 db. If the A16s mics have a similar S/N ratio, that's a dealkiller right there, because the emulation can only be to the level of that S/n ratio.

(...)

Please consider that Dr. Stephen Smyth created certain tools in the A8 to deal with such signal to noise rate:

WINDOW -- The PRIR measurement captures the room acoustic over time, including reverberation. The maximum measurement length is 850 ms (the default), but this can be reduced. As the length becomes shorter, the sound becomes drier (less reverberant), and at 5 ms the signal is largely anechoic.
One reason to reduce the reverberation length is that, as the reverberation dies down, any remaining measured sound is noise in the room.

This noise is avoided if the length is reduced to the time from the impulse to the time when the reverberation tail drops below the ambient noise. Another reason would be for analysis of recorded material so that the reverberation of the measured room does not mask small details or errors. Very short reverb times such as 5 ms may sound unnatural.

(...)

Sweep options

For the SPK (PRIR) measurement, the Realiser allows the user to choose the length of the sweeps and whether sweeps are repeated. Using longer and repeated sweeps improves the signal-to-noise ratio of the measurement in most situations.

(...)

PRIR diagnostics

(...)

The first diagnostic screen shows the approximate signal-to-noise ratio of each impulse response in the PRIR data set. The data is arranged in order from channel 1 to channel 8, and each channel shows the left-ear right-ear data pair for the measurements taken at the three head positions.

For example:

89 78 67 78 88 87
89 88 78 45 43 54
98 86 68 77 89 78
xx xx xx xx xx xx​

This is interpreted as:

Channel 1 = 89 78 67 Channel 2 = 78 88 87
Channel 3 = 89 88 78 Channel 4 = 45 43 54
Channel 5= 98 86 68 Channel 6 = 77 89 78
Channel 7 = xx xx xx Channel 8 = xx xx xx

The physical speaker to which each channel number refers depends on the actual speaker configuration. In this example, the channels are at the default assignments and it is a 5.1 system, so channels 7 and 8 were not measured.

Within channel 1 (the left speaker), the three sets of left-ear + right-ear measurements are, 89, 78 and 67.

89 = left-ear/right-ear looking centre
78 = left-ear/right-ear looking left
67 = left-ear/right-ear looking right

“89” represents two values: 8 means that the signal-to-noise ratio for the left-ear signal looking centre is between 80 dB and 90 dB; 9 means that the signal-to-noise ratio for the right-ear signal looking centre is greater than 90 dB.

The signal-to-noise ratio should be approximately the same for each pair. If the signal-to-noise ratio drops for any particular speaker, or a particular look-angle, or a particular ear, then it may indicate a problem with the measured data, and the measurement may need to be re-taken.

The subwoofer channel will normally have a significantly lower signal-to-noise ratio than the full- bandwidth channels, as illustrated by channel 4 above.

(...)

SPECIFICATIONS

(...)

Signal to noise ratio >105 dB, A-weighted

http://www.smyth-research.com/downloads/A8manual.pdfhttp://www.smyth-research.com/downloads/A8manual.pdf

Other things to consider is whether or not you are in an isolated listening room with good HVAC and sweep volume.

I for one would like to measure a state of the art mastering room with a low distortion pair of sealed professional monitor speakers in a acustically treated "reflection free zone" and a sweep of directional frequencies.

Non-directional bass can be dealt with the A16 bass management.

I wouldn’t recomend measuring any typical living room with asymmetrical speaker placement and crappy acoustics (no matter the quality of the transducers inside it) or defy the inhabitants to make it symmetrical and also to create a reflection free zone in it.

But I concede that PRIR's, even in crappy rooms, seems, perhaps for wrong reasons, more magical to users than products that rely on generic HRIRs.

To synthetize a personal HRTF and then overlap a RIR is what the researchers in this field think would make a simple enough product for mass production.

 

[J.Villain]

I think that clearly with this new price, the target clearly moved mostly to professionals, as well as financially very comfortable hi-fi enthusiasts.

I read an interview today with the presdent of Canon USA where he was talking about the Chinese market.
--------------------------------------
So the customer focus, delighting the customer, that is borderless. [Ed. Note: Meaning that it's the same mission, around the world.] But sometimes, for example in China, even the younger generation is purchasing the 5D Mark IV. That's a very unique market. Then compared to China, the US might be more entry-driven, rather than the high-end or midrange."

DE: That's interesting; so in China, with younger people, the higher-end is actually leading.


KO: Yes, you know, the super-rich people are rich! <laughs> That's the same in the US, but in China even the teenagers are purchasing the 5D Mark IV as a first camera.


DE: Wow!

https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...ogawa-talks-mirrorless-strategy-eos-r-arrives
----------------------------------------

For those that aren't camera people the 5D mk IV sells for about $4000 in the US before you even stick a lens on it, which will cost at least $1000 a hit. Keep in mind that the owner of the company that the Smyths teamed up with is Chinese so likely knows the Chinese market well. The city I am in you can't go more that 2 or 3 blocks with out running into a high end exotic car and they are 90+% owned by children of Chinese nationals. One more point. If you think you have issues fitting your Klipsch horns in your place. Try China.

 

[sander99]

For instance the binaural microphones: I can go on Amazon and look up binaural measurement microphones, and guess what--Their S/N ratio is oinly 72 db. If the A16s mics have a similar S/N ratio, that's a dealkiller right there, because the emulation can only be to the level of that S/n ratio.

One reason to reduce the reverberation length is that, as the reverberation dies down, any remaining measured sound is noise in the room.

With the noise in the impulse response I think it is something like this (maybe one of the DSP experts here, like @Maestroso can correct me if I am wrong, or confirm if I am right):
The measurement is done with the sweep tones playing at a fairly loud and constant level. Let's say as an example that indeed in the resulting impulse responses of the PRIR there is noise 72 db under the full level. (By the way, I don't know if deconvolving the sweep response with the sweep to create the impulse response - I hope I describe how it works correctly - would change the noise level). Later during the speaker emulation the input signal for each speaker is convolved for each ear with the corresponding impulse response. If a certain virtual speaker is reproducing a soft sound, that soft sound is convolved with a full level impulse response, and the noise in the resulting soft sound caused by the noise in the impulse response is now 72 db under that soft level that is being reproduced, and hence inaudible. The noise is scaled down (and up) with the actual soundlevel coming from the virtual speaker so to speak, always 72 db under the actual sound level, always masked by the actual sound that is reproduced by the speaker. Only when direct sound stops and the reverberation is fading out the level difference with the noise decreases. And this probably is one of the other things that is solved by the reduced reverberation length. In other words: a 72 db s/n ratio in the impulse responses does not imply that the s/n ratio of the speaker emulation is limited to 72 db [Edit: not in the normal meaning that if your actual sound level is for example at -30 db the noise - floor - would be only 42 db below that.]. Again: this is just how I imagine it, experts please comment.

 

[JohnEW]

This is a general comment and not a reflection on the business practice of Smyth Research.. But more on communication frustration.

Two months ago "16 August 2018" was the last update from Smyth Research. It's amazing how they are able to do all those demonstrations of the Realiser A16 around the world using the Smyth/Heavenly Sound brand, but unable to send or give updates to the Kickstarter and Pre-Order customers who advanced them the funds to physically help to bring these demonstrations to market. Large orders are good for business but are Smyth Research beginning to forget who helped them financially by placing Kickstarter and Pre-Orders at the beginning.

All we are asking is to keep the individuals who supplied Smyth Research with the financial help to get the Realiser A16 off the ground, on how our orders are progressing. There must be a batch of A16's about ready for distribution by now. If not then inform us why there is still a delay. Bad News is better than No News. People have waited a long time for the A16 and shall just have to wait a bit longer if there are still problems causing further delays.

I know the complexity of the A16 could cause delays in production. But all we ask apart from a final product IS THE UPDATES ON TIME..

 

[CanMad]

The yarra 3DX is starting to look like it won't be delivered. Right as they announced they were going into production. Relevant because a number of us A16 buyers were planning on using it with the Yarra. Allowing people to experience the virtualisation without headphones.

 

[raband]

The yarra 3DX is starting to look like it won't be delivered.

Link to this?