[Takeanidea]

Watching in the dark of my bedroom on my calibrated Panny 65VT50, as Rafa Nadal battles with Diego Schwartzman at Rod Laver Arena for nearly four hours, both sweating furiously until Rafa emerges victorious (of course he did). It's like being there at Melbourne Park watching.

Listening through my primary (but second) HDMI-A8 as I have ever since 2013 when I also bought the Panny to be my primary HDTV. Using the very same original 5.1 PRIR fortunate enough to be captured back in 2009 (when I got my [first] original #0001 analog-only-A8) at the original wonderful sounding B&W-equipped AIX Studio mixing room here in Los Angeles.

Once the SR-009 is on my head and I'm listening to HDTV or a BluRay or Netflix or whatever (all decoded to LPCM by the Oppo, for feeding via HDMI2-out to the A8), I have no sensation that I'm listening through headphones. .

Thanks for the inspiring posts. I bought the Realiser on a whim and have waivered many times , due to the cost (suspecting as some others have that the Industry will catch up soon and offer something just as good for a fraction of the price) and the selling platform (I am still waiting for the Seiun Pro X on Indiegogo 2 years on). These real life tales will keep us strong!

 

[dsperber]

Just one more thing to say...

In addition to my AIX PRIRs I also have four other PRIR's, all made through personal measurements AT the particular location, and NONE of them do I ever use to actually listen to anything for real:

(a) Mi Casa studio, also made in 2009 in LA, which sounds kind of "hard" and exhibits an "echo" in the room which I don't recall but which obviously the ear-mics picked up. Obviously the speakers and overall sound treatments on floor, walls and ceiling produced a sound which I'm not crazy about.

(b) Egyptian Theater in Hollywood, special invitation, sitting balcony 1st-row-center (with absolutely nobody in the theater), which is amazingly "spacious" but not really good to listen through in my bedroom as not surprisingly it sounds "hollow, cavernous, and has an echo". You're very definitely "far away" from the 30-speakers in the theater all around the front, sides, and rear of my seat location. Listening through this PRIR is kind for the novelty effect of it, but not really for everyday listening.

(c) Glenn Poor's Audio, Champaign IL, which shows poor side/rear surround speaker locations and overall balance, and is not very "warm". Too small a room, and it sounds it through the PRIR.

(d) Smyth sample test room in Camarillo CA, which was taken back in 2008 when I was invited for a basic speaker pre-release (by a year!) demo of the technology, rather than using high-end speakers

All four of these naturally have their own unique characteristics when listened back through, as all involved being measured in completely different physical space layouts with completely different speakers/electronics, echo baffling treatments on walls and ceiling, wood vs. carpet floor, placement of my seat, etc. But in actual life NONE OF THEM IS EVER USED TO ACTUALLY LISTEN THROUGH since the day they were captured! I've even stopped trying to re-listen to them just to remind myself of how they sounded, as the novelty has worn off. None of these is "enjoyable", and none of these are "completely transparent and real" like the AIX PRIR sounds.

The AIX room had wood floor, sound-baffle treatments on walls and ceiling, a terrific shape and speaker locations, and wonderful B&W speakers... all producing a fabulous anechoic but "warm" sound as you sat there. And listening through its PRIR conveys exactly the same "warm" sound, with NO echo anywhere. It's just sound coming from those speakers. I don't want to listen to anything through any other PRIR.

So in reality I use only the original AIX 5.1 and 7.1 PRIRs, with the 5.1 PRIR being my default P1-preset so that I'm automatically listening through it when powering the unit on. I never change it ever, except to go to the 7.1 version (in P2) when listening to 7-channel source. It's the same Stax HPEQ and my supporting amp/DAC equipment that is used for all of these PRIR's, but only the AIX mixing room sound is "enjoyable" enough to use 100% for any type of source. I just would never choose to listen to any of the other rooms, through their PRIRs and the A8 and headphones, because the sound of those other REAL rooms wasn't really "enjoyable" in the actual real world.

While this whole SVS technology is amazing, and if you've just experienced it or had a demo for the first time it's going to be novel and remarkable. But once you settle in and just begin using it everyday as the way you listen to anything, as if you were going to that same sound room you had the PRIR measured in, the more you begin to forget about how it works. The more you will just appreciate the fact that you have the opportunity to be able to listen through a fabulous PRIR-enabled virtual listening environment that sounds completely like real speakers, and that you would probably never be able to build or afford yourself (or even physically have in my 3rd-floor condo with neighbors down below me).

That's my recommendation: seek out a real world listening environment that is ENJOYABLE to hear all types of sound through, and capture a PRIR there. You will then make this your own P1-default, I'm sure.

 

[Takeanidea]

I bet I've heard that Egyptian pre set on the Out of Your Head Software.... it's exactly as you described it

 

[jgazal]

Just to have an idea of AIX studio main control room acoustics:

 

[dsperber]

Thanks for the reminder pics.

Now what's missing is a picture of ME, sitting in that high-back chair at the center of the console, with nobody else in the room to make a stray sound or interfere with the room acoustics during the measurement process. Two calibration mics in my ears with two wires leading to the adapter gizmo hanging around my neck, with a long wire then going from the adapter to the nearby A8, controlling everything and telling me to "look center", then "look left", and then "look right".

As is stated in the "PRIR Optimisation" section of the User Manual, my PRIRs always are made using the long-interval (12sec for each speaker's solo frequency sweep) as opposed to the short-interval (3sec for each speaker's solo frequency sweep). Obviously this increases x4 the time to complete the measurement, and requires that you work hard to stay still and not breathe noisily (if at all). The ear microphones are VERY sensitive.

TYPE:SWEEP -- 3s or 12s. The three-second default sweep is used for demonstrations, and in
most environments yields a very good result. The twelve-second sweep is recommended for the
measurements you intend to use and archive.

And also explained in "PRIR Optimisation", I also repeat each speaker sweep 4 times (which is then averaged by the Realiser to produce the final PRIR value). Again, another increase x4 for the total time to complete the measurement, but I feel the results (which will last forever) justify the associated effort.

AVG LOOK C: -- sets the number of repetitions for the looking-centre sweeps. The choices
are 1, 2, 4, or 8 repetitions. In a quiet environment, the improvements using more and more
repetitions are small and of course multiply the total time required for the measurement. In
rooms with short to medium path lengths from speakers to listener, a user might try two
repetitions at twelve seconds per sweep for critical measurements. Do not use repetitions (set
AVG LOOK C: to 1) for long path lengths such as found in a cinema.

AVG LOOK L-R: -- sets the number of repetitions for the looking-left and looking right
sweeps. Again the choices are 1, 2, 4, or 8 repetitions. The looking-left and -right
measurements are less critical than the looking-centre, so one might repeat the centre
measurements and not the left and right, or, given the time and inclination, repeat both (except
with long path lengths). Again, do not use repetitions (set AVG LOOK C: to 1) for long path
lengths such as found in a cinema.

 

[dsperber]

As long as we're posting photos, I found a few from back in April 2009.

(1) Me and Stephen Smyth at the Camarillo CA office, finally receiving serial #0001 official very first production Realiser A8, in my hands after waiting for it for five years, from when I first learned about it in a WSR Magazine article back in September 2004.

(2) AIX soundroom as it was set up for me and my PRIR calibration session back then. Note that the front speakers are on a carpeted section of the floor, whereas the console and listening area is on a wood section of the floor.

(3) That very first analog-only Realiser A8 next to my Stax SRM-T1S amp, which is what I was using back then along with my Stax Omega-1 headphones. I still have all three of these items today, and still use them to listen at my secondary HDTV node.

(4) ME sitting center-console, frozen still with my Omega-1 headphones on and the calibration mics still in my ears, measuring and creating the HPEQ.

Good times.

 

[cachi]

Thanks for sharing the pictures. Looks like one heck of a time. Audio nirvana indeed. The bowers and wilkins speakers look so stoic and classic, but whats with the JBL's ? lol they look like they are there to vacuum the dust

 

[cachi]

One day my dream of owning the realiser will become reality. One day before I die....hopefully way before. I have been wanting it for many years but never had enough money to take the plunge. Now I have some STAX sr-507's and all I need is a couple thousand more

 

[blenheim]

What headphones are guys going to use with the A16?
I am planning to use my SE- PM 1 if i don't sell them before i get the Realiser

I will using my Lambda Pro that has served me well for the last 32 years.

 

[musicday]

Just one more thing to say...

In addition to my AIX PRIRs I also have four other PRIR's, all made through personal measurements AT the particular location, and NONE of them do I ever use to actually listen to anything for real:

(a) Mi Casa studio, also made in 2009 in LA, which sounds kind of "hard" and exhibits an "echo" in the room which I don't recall but which obviously the ear-mics picked up. Obviously the speakers and overall sound treatments on floor, walls and ceiling produced a sound which I'm not crazy about.

(b) Egyptian Theater in Hollywood, special invitation, sitting balcony 1st-row-center (with absolutely nobody in the theater), which is amazingly "spacious" but not really good to listen through in my bedroom as not surprisingly it sounds "hollow, cavernous, and has an echo". You're very definitely "far away" from the 30-speakers in the theater all around the front, sides, and rear of my seat location. Listening through this PRIR is kind for the novelty effect of it, but not really for everyday listening.

(c) Glenn Poor's Audio, Champaign IL, which shows poor side/rear surround speaker locations and overall balance, and is not very "warm". Too small a room, and it sounds it through the PRIR.

(d) Smyth sample test room in Camarillo CA, which was taken back in 2008 when I was invited for a basic speaker pre-release (by a year!) demo of the technology, rather than using high-end speakers

All four of these naturally have their own unique characteristics when listened back through, as all involved being measured in completely different physical space layouts with completely different speakers/electronics, echo baffling treatments on walls and ceiling, wood vs. carpet floor, placement of my seat, etc. But in actual life NONE OF THEM IS EVER USED TO ACTUALLY LISTEN THROUGH since the day they were captured! I've even stopped trying to re-listen to them just to remind myself of how they sounded, as the novelty has worn off. None of these is "enjoyable", and none of these are "completely transparent and real" like the AIX PRIR sounds.

The AIX room had wood floor, sound-baffle treatments on walls and ceiling, a terrific shape and speaker locations, and wonderful B&W speakers... all producing a fabulous anechoic but "warm" sound as you sat there. And listening through its PRIR conveys exactly the same "warm" sound, with NO echo anywhere. It's just sound coming from those speakers. I don't want to listen to anything through any other PRIR.

So in reality I use only the original AIX 5.1 and 7.1 PRIRs, with the 5.1 PRIR being my default P1-preset so that I'm automatically listening through it when powering the unit on. I never change it ever, except to go to the 7.1 version (in P2) when listening to 7-channel source. It's the same Stax HPEQ and my supporting amp/DAC equipment that is used for all of these PRIR's, but only the AIX mixing room sound is "enjoyable" enough to use 100% for any type of source. I just would never choose to listen to any of the other rooms, through their PRIRs and the A8 and headphones, because the sound of those other REAL rooms wasn't really "enjoyable" in the actual real world.

While this whole SVS technology is amazing, and if you've just experienced it or had a demo for the first time it's going to be novel and remarkable. But once you settle in and just begin using it everyday as the way you listen to anything, as if you were going to that same sound room you had the PRIR measured in, the more you begin to forget about how it works. The more you will just appreciate the fact that you have the opportunity to be able to listen through a fabulous PRIR-enabled virtual listening environment that sounds completely like real speakers, and that you would probably never be able to build or afford yourself (or even physically have in my 3rd-floor condo with neighbors down below me).

That's my recommendation: seek out a real world listening environment that is ENJOYABLE to hear all types of sound through, and capture a PRIR there. You will then make this your own P1-default, I'm sure.

Thank you for sharing your nice audio experience with us. It will make our waiting time for the A16 less painful.
Now if you are kind enough, can you please share your measurements with all of us?
Many thanks and i hope you don't mind me asking.

 

[462429]

Watching in the dark of my bedroom on my calibrated Panny 65VT50, as Rafa Nadal battles with Diego Schwartzman at Rod Laver Arena for nearly four hours, both sweating furiously until Rafa emerges victorious (of course he did). It's like being there at Melbourne Park watching.

Listening through my primary (but second) HDMI-A8 as I have ever since 2013 when I also bought the Panny to be my primary HDTV. Using the very same original 5.1 PRIR fortunate enough to be captured back in 2009 (when I got my [first] original #0001 analog-only-A8) at the original wonderful sounding B&W-equipped AIX Studio mixing room here in Los Angeles. When it's time for DTS-MA 7.1 sound (e.g. "Wonder Woman"), it's the same original 7.1 PRIR from AIX, also captured that same day back in 2009 after moving the side speakers forward from their 5.1 positions and then activating the rear surrounds.

Also ever since 2013 when new headphone equipment was also bought in support of the new Panny and the new HDMI-A8, I'm using an open-backed Stax SR-009 and Stax SRM-007tii, fed via Audioquest XLR cables from an Audio-GD NFB9 DAC, which is fed via optical cable output from the A8, which is fed already-decoded discrete multi-channel LPCM-via-HDMI DD5.1 from the second [audio-only] HDMI output of my Oppo BDP-103 player, which is fed through its front external HDMI input with HDTV source content coming from ESPN through my cable provider.

Looks through my Panny plasma screen like I'm in Melbourne, and sounds through the HPEQ for my Stax SR-009 and PRIR measured personally at AIX just like I'm at AIX studios again and listening to the match through their wonderful sounding B&W speakers.

The magnificent SR-009/SRM-007tii through the Audio-GD NFB9 DAC is simply invisible, as provided by the A8 and AIX PRIR. I only hear the AIX speakers around me in that AIX room, where they actually lived. Thanks to the multi-mic placement at Laver arena, listening to the action "through the AIX speaker system" facilitated by the A8/Stax etc. system is the next best thing to actually being there... i.e. to actually being in the actual AIX studio listening to the ESPN live broadcast from Melbourne, through the actual AIX B&W speakers.

Can't say enough positive about the SR-009/SRM-007tii.

Man, thank you for the detailed description of your impressive equipment and your fine experiences. Only, I'm surprised you base your description on the DD5.1 (lossy format, 6 ch) and not on the DTS-MA 7.1 (high definition format, 8 ch) which you also have but mention it merely by the way ?!?

 

[dsperber]

I'm surprised you base your description on the DD5.1 (lossy format, 6 ch) and not on the DTS-MA 7.1 (high definition format, 8 ch) which you also have but mention it merely by the way ?!?

The PRIR's don't know what you're going to be feeding through them. For the A8 they simply support up to 8 channels, corresponding to up to a 7.1 real speaker arrangement setup and corresponding 7.1 virtual speakers. If you only measure a 5.1 speaker arrangement setup, then you create a 5.1 PRIR. But even if the real 5.1 or 7.1 speaker placement is not "perfect", the PRIR produced from that speaker arrangement will simply duplicate the less-than-perfect sound because of the defective speaker placement, same as would be the case in the real room.

When you select the PRIR to be used for playback, you should choose one that matches the number of channels in the source program. That's because presumably a program mixed for 5.1 is expected to be played back through a standard 5.1 speaker placement (and PRIR). In contrast, a program mixed for 7.1 would be expected to be heard through a 7.1 speaker arrangement (and PRIR). If you use a 7.1 PRIR (measured with its real side speakers at 90 degrees), but you only feed a 5.1 program to it, the two side channels of sound will be heard through the 7.1 PRIR from virtual speakers at 90 degrees, rather than where the 5.1 PRIR would have placed those virtual speakers at 120 degrees.

Will this make any real audible difference to you the listener through this system? Probably not. If you had a 7.1 setup in your home, would you move your side speakers back somewhat just because you were playing a 5.1 HDTV program? Probably not. But in theory it should be done. Anyway, given that you have both a 5.1 and 7.1 PRIR available, you should simply use the correct one to correspond to the source program, and it will probably sound the "best" since that's the real speaker arrangement the audio mixer guy expected you'd have when he produced the mix.

The PRIR represents the sound of and number of the real speakers placed in that room, not the quality of whatever source program you might someday playback through it. The point of the technology is to duplicate the sound of that same source program, had you played that source program through those real speakers instead of using the Realiser and the PRIR for that virtual room and virtual speakers. Whatever you play, lossy or lossless, you're simply going to be hearing the same sound through your headphones and PRIR that you would have heard in the real room with those real speakers.

So, I only use my 7.1 PRIR (measured with side speakers at 90 degrees, and LB/RB added) when listening to any kind of 7.1 content, lossy or lossless. Otherwise, for all 5.1 content, I use my 5.1 PRIR (measured with side speakers at 120 degrees and no LB/RB). For convenience, since I watch a lot of HDTV, the default-P1 preset is loaded with the 5.1 PRIR set to my preset default volume, so I simply have to power the A8 on and I'm all set to listen. Note that for 2-channel stereo (e.g. CD music) programs, there is no difference from using either PRIR since the the real LF/RF speaker placements are at the same location for both 5.1 and 7.1, and it's only those two channels of audio program that are being played.

 

[sander99]

With the A16 it will be even easier because you can let the A16 choose a PRIR automatically based on the source format. Although setting it all up perfectly for all variations of the 3D formats... I hope we are not gonna need a seperate 5.1.2 Atmos PRIR and a 7.1.4 Atmos PRIR etc. (But I don't suppose there will be specific 5.1.2 content for example.)

 

[462429]

The PRIR's don't know what you're going to be feeding through them. For the A8 they simply support up to 8 channels, corresponding to up to a 7.1 real speaker arrangement setup and corresponding 7.1 virtual speakers. If you only measure a 5.1 speaker arrangement setup, then you create a 5.1 PRIR. But even if the real 5.1 or 7.1 speaker placement is not "perfect", the PRIR produced from that speaker arrangement will simply duplicate the less-than-perfect sound because of the defective speaker placement, same as would be the case in the real room.

When you select the PRIR to be used for playback, you should choose one that matches the number of channels in the source program. That's because presumably a program mixed for 5.1 is expected to be played back through a standard 5.1 speaker placement (and PRIR). In contrast, a program mixed for 7.1 would be expected to be heard through a 7.1 speaker arrangement (and PRIR). If you use a 7.1 PRIR (measured with its real side speakers at 90 degrees), but you only feed a 5.1 program to it, the two side channels of sound will be heard through the 7.1 PRIR from virtual speakers at 90 degrees, rather than where the 5.1 PRIR would have placed those virtual speakers at 120 degrees.

Will this make any real audible difference to you the listener through this system? Probably not. If you had a 7.1 setup in your home, would you move your side speakers back somewhat just because you were playing a 5.1 HDTV program? Probably not. But in theory it should be done. Anyway, given that you have both a 5.1 and 7.1 PRIR available, you should simply use the correct one to correspond to the source program, and it will probably sound the "best" since that's the real speaker arrangement the audio mixer guy expected you'd have when he produced the mix.

The PRIR represents the sound of and number of the real speakers placed in that room, not the quality of whatever source program you might someday playback through it. The point of the technology is to duplicate the sound of that same source program, had you played that source program through those real speakers instead of using the Realiser and the PRIR for that virtual room and virtual speakers. Whatever you play, lossy or lossless, you're simply going to be hearing the same sound through your headphones and PRIR that you would have heard in the real room with those real speakers.

So, I only use my 7.1 PRIR (measured with side speakers at 90 degrees, and LB/RB added) when listening to any kind of 7.1 content, lossy or lossless. Otherwise, for all 5.1 content, I use my 5.1 PRIR (measured with side speakers at 120 degrees and no LB/RB). For convenience, since I watch a lot of HDTV, the default-P1 preset is loaded with the 5.1 PRIR set to my preset default volume, so I simply have to power the A8 on and I'm all set to listen. Note that for 2-channel stereo (e.g. CD music) programs, there is no difference from using either PRIR since the the real LF/RF speaker placements are at the same location for both 5.1 and 7.1, and it's only those two channels of audio program that are being played.

Thank you for the explanation, but I know all that and agree with you (except that my 5.1 PRIR will have surround speakers at 150 drgrees, not 120 and that my P1 preset will have 7.1.6 PRIR, made by means of my two front speakers, with the side speakers at cca 105 degrees).
With my question I wanted to provoke you to describe you experience with the 7.1 PRIR and 7.1 HD content.

 

[Erik Garci]

When you select the PRIR to be used for playback, you should choose one that matches the number of channels in the source program.

Another option is to upmix the 5.1 source to 7.1 channels. The A16 will have the Illusonic upmix for example.