[kstuart]

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In my opinion the 598s had a much more crisp and detailed sound. I'd hesitate to call it "bright" since the 598s are definitely not fatiguing, but after listening to the RS220s, I now know what the "Sennheiser veil" is that I've seen mentioned. The 220s did sound warmer and had meatier bass, but I think the bass, although far from boomy or muddy, overwhelmed the high end on the 220s. With my 598s I could hear nuances in the music that just weren't present in the 220s.

Thanks for your review/impression.
 
I use the RS180s and have owned the HD518s, HD590s and AKG K240s.
 
I would say that "flat" headphones cannot have the same bass response of a pair of speakers.  Due to popularity in the last 10 or so years of music with heavy bass, the headphone manufacturers have had to boost the bass response, in order to get popular genres to sound reasonable.   That automatically obscures some of the higher end.detail.
 
I could verify this with my 518s by putting my hands over the grills in such a way as to diminish the bass response - which instantly improved the mid-and-treble detail.   Various other tricks - like 555 mod - do similar things.

 

[GiacomoHoldini]

In the case of Sennheiser, I called recently with a technical question, and talked instantly to a technician, and have also had prompt replies by email about part numbers and so on.

Perhaps someone else who is having this issue can try calling Sennheiser to see if they can provide a solution. Something tells me they won't be able to, though. For one, I'm trying to imagine a solution that a user can implement that hasn't already been tried by the people reporting in this thread; I suppose there could be one, but it seems unlikely. Second, and even more significantly, if they are aware of a solution, that means they are aware of the problem. If they know it's a problem, why would they have released the RS220 in that condition? Considering the older, Kleer-based models didn't have the micro-drop issues (or had them way less), that would mean Sennheiser knowingly put out a technically inferior product with this latest model. That's always a possibility, but it would be a pretty lousy move if they did, especially considering the premium price.

 

[kfscoll]

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While that is a reasonable perspective, the actual real-world situation is that tech support people know about common problems and how to resolve them.
 
A few manufacturers list those in a manual, but nowadays people actually find having to read a manual to be offensive, so they almost always call if they have a problem, so that is the default setup.
 
Then some people just return the item and buy a different brand if it does not work for them.
 
For example, the HRT Music Streamer II DAC is excellent, but in Windows, you can get audible glitches unless you lower the player's buffer size to the minimum allowed (counter-intuitive).   You can get that advice, and other help, by emailing them and they reply promptly.
 
But, in head-fi, I have seen many cases where instead of emailing, people will return the HRT device for some other, like a Nuforce (which will end up not sounding as good in the end).
 
In the case of Sennheiser, I called recently with a technical question, and talked instantly to a technician, and have also had prompt replies by email about part numbers and so on.
 

You'd think that if HRT was experiencing returns because of an easily-fixed, common issue that they'd include a note in box, in the instruction manual or on their website.
 
Based on others' experience reported earlier in this thread (like the fact that Sennheiser phone tech support personnel didn't even know whether the RS 220 was going to be available in the U.S.), I thought my chances of getting a fix for this issue over the phone were pretty slim.  If someone calls Sennheiser and they learn the panacea, I'll eat my hat.
 
It's really a moot point for me anyway.  I recently bought two pairs of Beyerdynamic 'phones (600-ohm DT880s and DT990s) and I MUCH prefer these to any Sennheisers I've ever heard.  I liked the Beyers so much that I even sent my HD 598s back.
 

 

[GiacomoHoldini]

 I liked the Beyers so much that I even sent my HD 598s back.

Yeah, you like 'em "crisp," alright.

 

[kfscoll]

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Yeah, you like 'em "crisp," alright.

Ha ha, you have no idea.  I also just bought a Firestone Fubar IV Plus, a Firestone Bravo 24/96 processor, and two Firestone Supplier power supplies.  I'll probably mess with this Firestone stuff for a month or two and then give a Schiit Valhalla/Bifrost a try.
 
Back on topic -- the HD 598 was definitely "livelier" than the RS 220s.  I know you're a Sennheiser guy, but anything less trebly than the HS 598s is too dull for me...hence the easy decision to return the RS 220s.
 

 

[GiacomoHoldini]

Not that anybody else really gives a crap, but I don't know how much of a Sennheiser guy I am. I have some nostalgic attachment, because my father was an audio engineer who wore his HD414s at work every day, and my first set of reasonably decent cans was an HD 410SL, which he bought for me when I was 14. But today's higher-end Senn's are a whole other animal, and I've been out of the game for a long time. I'm getting back into things, but I'm open to all brands. I'm still trying to find out what my ideal sound signature is.

 

[kstuart]

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 I'm still trying to find out what my ideal sound signature is.

If you look at different people's ears, they vary quite a bit in shape, size, etc.  So, it would make sense that people actually hear differently - especially in terms of the subtleties we are talking about.on this site.   So, headphones that actually do sound too bright to one person, really sound just fine to another person - due to physical ear differences.
 
It is probably similar to room acoustics differences...
 

 

[GiacomoHoldini]

If you look at different people's ears, they vary quite a bit in shape, size, etc.  So, it would make sense that people actually hear differently - especially in terms of the subtleties we are talking about.on this site.   So, headphones that actually do sound too bright to one person, really sound just fine to another person - due to physical ear differences.

It is probably similar to room acoustics differences...

I'm sure that has a lot to do with it, although how much is physical, and how much is just individual "preference," who can say? I'm just trying to find what I consider balance - bright, but not too bright; detailed, but not cold or harsh; warm, but not veiled; full bass, but not bloated or muddy.

 

[otinkyad]

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I'm sure that has a lot to do with it, although how much is physical, and how much is just individual "preference," who can say? I'm just trying to find what I consider balance - bright, but not too bright; detailed, but not cold or harsh; warm, but not veiled; full bass, but not bloated or muddy.

I think many HeadFi-ers consider the Audeze (LCD2/LCD3) headphones to fit that description rather well.  Of those I'm familiar with the LCD2 and in my opinion it does meet the criteria you described.  They are $1000 though...  HE-500 at $700 is also considered by many to fit your description, and is probably livelier.  If you've tried either one did you think it met your criteria?

 

[GiacomoHoldini]

Unfortunately, I haven't heard any Audeze cans. The only authorized dealer in my area - which seems to be the Portland dealer of choice for most high-end brands - has hours by appointment only. Given that my first few listening sessions would likely be just to get the lay of the landscape, with no intention of buying, I haven't felt like scheduling time.

 

[kstuart]

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If you look at different people's ears, they vary quite a bit in shape, size, etc.  So, it would make sense that people actually hear differently - especially in terms of the subtleties we are talking about.on this site.   So, headphones that actually do sound too bright to one person, really sound just fine to another person - due to physical ear differences.

It is probably similar to room acoustics differences...

I'm sure that has a lot to do with it, although how much is physical, and how much is just individual "preference," who can say? I'm just trying to find what I consider balance - bright, but not too bright; detailed, but not cold or harsh; warm, but not veiled; full bass, but not bloated or muddy.

Actually, out of all the headphones I've owned, the RS180s fit that description most closely.
 
Headfonia stated in their review of the RS180:
 
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The RS180 strikes a nice balance between the warm and full bodied Sennheiser sound, yet not quite as dark and as laid back as the HD650.
 
It has a nice and full midrange throughout the lower to upper mid frequency, and while the bass is not as high in quality compared to the HD650/HD800, the RS180 has fairly full low end body without being boomy. Overall, the tonal balance is very likeable, far more likeable than the reference HD650/HD800 models. Think of it as a lighter footed HD650. The sound doesn’t quite have the weight of the HD650, but at the same time it’s more nimble, less dark, and is more forward and engaging than the HD650. The RS180 is more or less similar to the HD558/598 when it comes to the overall refinement and sound fidelity factor. However, compared to all the Sennheiser I have in my possession: the HD800, HD650, HD598, HD558, and the HD555, the RS180 still stood out as having the most enjoyable tonal balance among the bunch. The difference is mostly in the midrange, where the fuller midrange of the RS180 makes it more engaging and fun, and less dark than the other Sennheiser compatriots (with the exception of the HD800). It is indeed interesting that Sennheiser chose to fit such a fun sounding tonal balance for its wireless model, but at the same time not making it available on the wired models. As it is, the RS180 stands out very strongly due to the tonal balance. A HD650 replacement with an RS180 tonality would be a big hit, I’m sure.

whereas Sennheiser says about the RS220:
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1. Acoustics based on the HD 600 and HD 650

which can only mean that they use the drivers from the 600/650, and are designed to have the same sound signature (since they repeat often "600" and "650" in the marketing literature on the RS220), and the same very refined, but somewhat dark and veiled sound.
 
Personally, I find the RS180 to have the most balance of any headphone that I've owned.  I do find that its performance is very sensitive to hookup - I tried direct from the DAC, then from the amplifier headphone jack, and have now found the line output of the amplifier to be best, connected to the base station with a "premium" cable from Monoprice that is very heavy.
 
(Full Headfonia review of the RS180 is at:
 
http://www.headfonia.com/sennheiser-rs180/
 

 

[otinkyad]

I agree that the RS180 represents the range well (as does the humble RS120, in my opinion).  I think, though, that many HeadFiers would consider both (especially the RS120) to be on the bright side, and would say that the HD 600/650 (and consequently the RS 220) are more balanced.  I suppose "balanced" is pretty subjective itself

 

[GiacomoHoldini]

Thanks for the comments. The RS220 does have the HD650 drivers, so comparison to the 650 and 600 would seem apt.

Maybe I need to reconsider the RS180. I was thinking about getting it until I read about the then-forthcoming RS220, which seemed like a no-brainer better choice. In light of actual feedback, though, perhaps not. I had assumed the RS180 was inferior, but from what I'm reading, it's just different. Personally, I'm not so concerned with purity; I just want it to sound good to me. The FR graph actually shows that I might like it, given my preferences. Also, the RS180 appears to be much less prone to the technical problems the RS220 is having. And then there's the price. $330 is a lot more attractive than $600.

Any more thoughts on the RS180 versus 220?

 

[GiacomoHoldini]

Agree that sound quality of RS180 isn't as good.

I went back and re-read some older posts, like the one above. When you say the SQ of the RS180 isn't as good, is that just a sound signature preference, or are there technical reasons at play (e.g., detail, clarity, sound stage, etc.)?

 

[kstuart]

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Agree that sound quality of RS180 isn't as good.

I went back and re-read some older posts, like the one above. When you say the SQ of the RS180 isn't as good, is that just a sound signature preference, or are there technical reasons at play (e.g., detail, clarity, sound stage, etc.)?

 

In comparison of the RS180 with the HD590 and HD518, I would say that the 518/558/598 (and 800) have better imaging than the other Senns, due to the aforementioned wedge.
 
Clarity and detail were better than 518 (probably equal to 558/598) and comparable with the 590.
 
"PRAT" factor is very good, and it works very well with rock - Dark Side of the Moon sounds better than any of my other comparison headphones (HD590, HD518, K240).
 
Oh, and you can get a refurbished set from authorized dealer Dakmart ("Dahmart" on Amazon) for $190 with Senn warranty.
 
Again, check out the review by someone who professionally reviews headphones:
 
http://www.headfonia.com/sennheiser-rs180/