[yangian]

Big wall of frustration coming up.

Dear IE80 enthusiast.

Today it marks my first month with my IE80 and I can't even express how much frustration, sadness and disappointment I feel. Yesterday was my breaking point where I concluded I just hate the IE80. For the life of me, I just can't get them to "work" with metal. I have tried almost everything suggested on this topic: burn in, tape mod, change of source, EQ; but none of this has helped me to achieve the sound I was looking for.

Now allow me to elaborate. Before the IE80 I used for over a year the CX 5.0 (a mid tier IEM from Sennheiser which I believe has an almost identical sound signature as the Momentums). While the CX 5.0 are far from perfect, I enjoyed their sound signature: sharp, forward, electrifying, fast, harsh etc... Once I find out my desired EQ (pumping the 1k and 2k) I knew this was the type of Sound I was looking for metal. The sound where everything is in your face, where the rhythm guitars scream and where the drums kicks you in your private parts.

The idea on pulling the trigger on the IE80 was to obtain that same sound signature (sharp, forward, aggressive) but with much more clarity and better isolation (in the country where I live, you are doomed if you plan to listen music on the public transport if you don't have perfect isolation). Turns out IE80 had such clarity and instrument separation, but the sound signature I was looking for is all gone: rhythm guitars sound so distant, and all the instruments sound so separated that everything feels so far away. Actually, if I have to make an analogy with planes (out of all things), the IE80 feels like a luxury private plane, where the CX feels more like a military jet. Plus, the isolation is a step backwards from the CX. Turns out the only place where I can get a little joy out of the IE80 is at home, when everything is quiet and calm (this being my 5% of the day). As I was saying, yesterday was my breaking point. For you see, I took my Old CX to the gym yesterday, only to find out how much of my music I was not enjoying with the IE80. How dark and slow felt this last with my CX.

So here I am today not believing I paid around $350 for something that never suited me in the first place (everything sounded great in paper: huge sound stage, detailed sound, clarity; but in reality it has been a whole different story). Not believing either the amount of time I have spent on trying to "fix" the IE80 (on a product that belongs to the entry top tier class). The bones in my ears hurt so much, since I been trying to insert the IE80 so deep inside of me (I was trying to figure out if my problems where due to sound leakage).

I honestly don't know where to go now: get rid of the IE80 at any cost and find something else, or spend more money on better tips and cables in the sheer hope this IEM suits my needs all of the sudden (again, think in the plane analogy). The latter doesn't make me to happy, as wasting more money on a $350 phone in order to fix everything that might be considered an issue is just foolish.

Besides exposing my frustration and using this topic as my public handkerchief, I also want to learn of my experience (the first lesson being doing a whole lot more of research before pulling the trigger on something this expensive). For you see, I have been thinking ever since yesterday why does the CX and IE80 differ so much in sound signature. With this post I tend to solve some questions I been having, mainly:

1. ¿What is the relationship between: clarity, separation, soundstage, isolation?

2. ¿Does better clarity means better separation?

3. ¿Does excellent isolation means horrible clarity?

4. ¿My complaints with the IE80 are due to the wide soundstage?

5. ¿What should I look in a "fighter jet" IEM (and IEM that delivers speed, attack, accurate, loudness, electricity, spark etc)?


Phew, that was a long post; but indeed invigorating. Before closing I wish to clarify some stuff I mentioned. I don't consider the IE80 to be a bad phone (perhaps overpriced but nothing else). With classical music, the IE80 outperforms any phone I have tried (listening Rachmaninov piano concerts on them brings tear to any eye). Even on the metal genre, Dream Theater keyboards sound like anything I have heard before (yes, my main complaint are the rhythm guitars). So please understand, I have no issues with the IE80 quality, but with the sound signature of the IE80. It's just a matter of personal taste.

Resort to this cable:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-Original-EARMAX-EarPhone-Cable-FOR-IE8-IE80-IE8i-Upgrade-Cable-High-Quality/32263877521.html

 

[159650]

I don't know. I always sort of assumed that CIEM companies offer reshelling as a given. Afterall, people buy their CIEMs so it makes sense that used pairs will end up in the market eventually. I suppose that companies like Ultimate Ears might not offer it. I haven't checked but I don't remember hearing about it either. Anyway, yes, I've been pretty impressed by CustomArt's attention to detail in the market. They're a new company and a small one at that. They offer recabling services for IEMs as well, not sure if full-sized headphones count. But they definitely offer reshelling and even shelling of UIEMs. So they've put a lot of thought into their services and have the technical abilities to carry them out. 
 
I haven't received my pairs yet and will be some time before I can actually comment on the quality or sound, but yes, I have also been told that CA is one of the most promising startups in the CIEM market at the moment. Their customization and options are also very well priced. I've checked with several manufacturers and honestly, CA has everyone beat when it comes to the prices of customizations. Not sure about quality, but I hear that the work is top notch as well. Their wood veneers and prints cost far less than others. I think the cost of both sided veneering is less than it costs to get the same job done on one side for most others. They also have a lot of wood choices and they're genuine wood veneers and same goes for the carbon fiber - of which I'm not a fan generally speaking. So there are a lot of reasons why I can recommend CA. Their pricing is pretty much the best out there. You won't find a more affordable or well tuned triple driver CIEM anywhere else. Their music series are all silicone, which is a different experience as CIEMs go and is quite an unusual offering as I am told. CA offers silicone molding in their entry level single driver Music One, which has been highly praised by the well known reviewer joker. There is a review here on HFi as well. So based on service, price, and performance, CA has it all covered. 

 

[krismusic]

I don't know. I always sort of assumed that CIEM companies offer reshelling as a given.

JHA for one definitely do not. There are third party re shellers but personally,I would not like that option.

 

[159650]

I hear you. There was some discussion here in headfi posted by UE. Basically someone in the CIEM department had a series of conversation with head of balanced armature receivers at sonion where they mentioned something about CIEM and IEM manufacturers reusing BA units salvaged from hearing aids and repackaging them as finished products etc. I'm not sure exactly what companies out there have such dubious business practices, but yeah, there are certainly other reshelling and modifying (adding drivers) service out there that you probably can't trust. 

 

[krismusic]

I hear you. There was some discussion here in headfi posted by UE. Basically someone in the CIEM department had a series of conversation with head of balanced armature receivers at sonion where they mentioned something about CIEM and IEM manufacturers reusing BA units salvaged from hearing aids and repackaging them as finished products etc. I'm not sure exactly what companies out there have such dubious business practices, but yeah, there are certainly other reshelling and modifying (adding drivers) service out there that you probably can't trust. 

I'm not against reshelling per se. I would just be more confident with the original manufacturer. Anyway. I don't suppose this is helping the OP much!

 

[159650]

Oops. Anyway going with a manufacturer that does reshells will be a safe move going forward. I agree that these things are best handled by the original manufacturer since the original layout of internal components, the length and bore of sound tubes and such all come into play including dampers and filters. So retain the original spec yes, best left to original manufacturers. So back to the topic of choosing CIEMs, best go with the one that has you covered from purchase throughout to resell. And I think CustomArt is the most comprehensive in that regard. The offer reshell and even help you resell your pair when the time comes. Very good move in my opinion considering how often people sell and buy gears throughout their time in this hobby. 

 

[BlackDog]

  it's a problem we all encounter. some get lucky most of their life, or just don't really care. but wen we do care, it's so hard to translate our feelings into words, both for the guy looking for an IEM, an for the guy making a feedback. it leads to the mess we're in. so it's not a surprise that some would take a wrong turn along the way. IMO you can benefit from such experience and know better what you're aiming for. the real sad part is wasting money on something we never desired.
good luck on the next IEM.

 
 
Thank you very much for you kind response! Indeed, it is really difficult to describe and understand sound in terms of words and not purely on sound.I wish there was some kind of headphone store was created that would let you try all the phones so you could make the best choice. Sadly, I don't think that's never going to exists. 
 
As you said, I can make the best out of this situation and that's what I am aiming at: to found why I don't fell in love with this IEM and what do I have to look in another to make the right choice. 
About the money, it is sad true to that. But at least it can still be sold at some price and recover a little bit of the money you spent. (The tricky part is where to sold them on my country).
 
 

It is never a good idea to believe the people here and other reviewers, only your own experience counts. The IE80 are superb in my humble opinion, only I don't think they are metal in ears. Don't ask me which one are, because I don't listen to metal, at least not the pure stuff. The Grado GR10 might be a better choice for but don't take my word for it.

 
I will look more into THE metal IEM. 
From what I've read, the VSONIC GR07 are always one of the top choices for such needs. But then again, such phone is recommend almost in any topic asking for a good IEM. 
Indeed, the Grado GR10 has been mentioned a couple of times but for God sake, they are expensive. Last but not least, Westones get a lot of atention but metal users as well, however I find this strange since many reviews have mentioned such phones have a veiled sound. 
 

About seven years ago I started using IEM's for commuting. Sennheiser CX300's.
I came on here and fell into the rabbit hole which is HeadFi.
Wanting to "improve" what I had I started to read. And read and read! At that time the IE8's were Sennheisser's flagship and had glowing reviews. The "veil" was mentioned but I figured that I would be one of the connoisseurs who could live with that.
When I received my IE8's and first put them in I was shocked a horribly muddy sound. Yup. There's the mid bass veil!
I dutifully burned them in for a couple of days and either they changed or, more likely, I got used to the sound and convinced myself that I quite liked them.
I simply could not believe that Sennheisser could make a flawed 'phone.
I always got good isolation from the supplied tips. Good enough to sit next to someone on a train without annoying them.
However, I read about custom sleeves and decided to try them.
They made me feel much more audiophile!
They improved everything about the IE8 but did not remove the mid bass "hump".
I only got rid of that when I got over my resistance to EQ and cut at 100Hz by a few dB. A bit of a lift in the top end and all was much better.
I still felt that although the 8's now sounded pretty much how I wanted tonally they lacked life and dynamics.
I tried a number of other IEM's but always had problems with fit.
In the end I went for broke and got into CIEM's.
I haven't looked back.
I don't really know what I am saying to you here.
Mainly that I don't think you have done anything wrong.
IMHO you are right to question the sound of the IE80's, they are probably just not for you.
I would not waste more time and money trying to get around that fact.
If you have ears that accommodate most IEM designs there are many interesting mid price options out there.
If not then customs might be a way forward. All manufacturers have mid price options. You don't have to go to the TOTL.
Do bear in mind that resale on CIEM's is pretty poor.
At the risk of shilling, Noble have a great line up and also offer a second user reshell service so resale should be better.
HTH. Good luck. Don't give up. Enjoying your music is too important!

 
Before purchasing the IE80 I was considering saving more money to get custom IEMs. But, the thing is I'm a little bit afraid of custom products in general. I'm the kind of guy that "recycles" the products once I stop using them or whenever I feel they don't suit my needs. The custom part (and something that delicate as the ear shape) destroys that idea and I don't even want to know how it feels to buy an expensive CIEM and later found it wasn't what you always dreamed of.
 
I understand what you are telling me, and I believe the key is patience. Perhaps (and only perhaps) I've been used to the sound of the CX for very long. That narrowness and speed has been with my daily since the last two years and it is only natural that my brain is trying to adjust to a new sound (my conception of burn in). Either that or I'm just making excuses to accept the truth. As of today, I believe is the first, and that's why I am going to get custom tips (if they aren't too expensive that is). 
 

  Top tier IEMs typically have signatures that could be described as unique. So in a way, they can be polarizing and are not for everyone. I concur that going forward, CIEMs make sense. Invest wisely as the resale is indeed pretty much appalling and it is best done with intent to keep for a long time. I see that krismusic has recommended Noble based on resale value, but you'll pay for the earphones and I'm not sure, but typically reshelling isn't cheap. Assuming that Noble reshells at a price, I would guess it to be somewhere in the 150 dollar point. I would like to recommend CustomArt based in Poland. Their entry level CIEMs are said to be excellent, with their music series being made of silicone rather than acrylic. Performance-wise, they're considered the king of budget CIEM at the moment. And yes, I've checked others. Their pricing is extremely competitive and customer service top notch. I've ordered the Music Two and Ei.xx from CA and am still waiting for them. My first dive into CIEMs. So I suppose I'm at a new point in this hobby as well. Also, their reshell service is priced at around 75 euros. Plus, Custom Art can help you sell your CIEM later when you decide that you're ready to move on to something else. 
 
CIEMs have superb noise isolation. I have never even seen CIEMs in the wild, and have never had a chance to use any of them in the past, but when I had my impressions made, I noticed just how amazing the noise isolation was. I commute by bus and train as well, so good noise isolation is a priority. A CIEM will definitely fix any fit and isolation issues. Check out CustomArt at thecustomart.com. They also have a loose representation of the sound characteristics of the CIEMs on offer. If you're looking to return the IE80 and will get your money back, then you should choose between the Ei3 or the Music Two. Both are priced at 295-325 euros. The Music Two are dual driver but uses the Sonion 1723 driver which is technically more advanced than the Ei3 which is a 3 way triple driver model. Both are considered to be close, but the Ei3 is more suited for bass lovers and the M2 is more of a V shaped sound.
 
Anyway, good luck on your search!

 
I will look into CIEM once I'm tired of universal IEMs. The thing is, I don't live netiher on the US, Canada, Asia or Europe. I actually live in a country (hint: We are the backyard of the US) where getting the stuff the top tier stuff recommended of any prodcut (of any class!) is almost impossible. I have yet to found a store in my country that does CIEMs (if such thing exist in here). More even, I have yet to find a store with trusted reviews, and that is going to be almost impossible im sure. Unfortunately, even if I dream on my dream CIEM, I won't gamble on them (not while im still stuck in this puddle of dirt). 
 

 
Just be patient, you'll like it more and more.

 
I think I'm starting to like them, but I don't know if it's my brain playing tricks on me. 

 

[159650]

If you ever decide to go into CIEMs, you'd be purchasing through the internet without trying them out. CIEMs are generally designed to work within different design parameters as UIEMs. So even demo units won't exactly sound like CIEMs since they'll be made available in a UIEM form factor. Plus the cost would generally make them prohibitive for display and demoing. In other words, chances are, like most of us, you'd do tons of research online and cast your die and hope for the best. As long as you go with a reputable manufacturer, I believe that the sound quality will not disappoint however. The process of having CIEMs made is of course, very involved. And generally people will get impressions made at a local audiologist and have them shipped out to the company that handles the CIEM. So unless there is a CIEM manufacturer nearby that does the impressions as well, you wouldn't be able to just walk into a store and pick up a pair. But this is a the case with 95% of CIEM purchases I believe. 
 
I just got into CIEMs myself - I don't even have my order yet. I have seen CIEMs only once in real life, and have never touched a pair before. So when I finally receive mine, it will be quite a new experience. The reason why I've kept myself from going into CIEMs in the past I believe are the same as your concerns now. The price, the process (impressions cost 50-100 in the US), poor resale, no demoing, slow turn around time and the hassle in an event the CIEM needs a refit are all cons of CIEMs. I have until now been afraid to buy CIEMs. But impressions here cost me only 20 and the prices of CIEMs have gone down a lot since they were first introduced. A pair of IE80 costs 250 and above. A pair of Music One from CustomArt only costs 220 dollars to start. It's not as big a commitment as it once was to purchase one and there are good reviews on the net about them. 
 
I'm not trying to sell you a pair of CIEM. And at this point I'm starting to sound like I work for CA so I won't press the issue. But what I'm trying to actually say is that I have been there. Just 6 months ago if someone asked me if I'd purchase a pair of CIEMs or not, I would have definitely said not. But as someone in this hobby it was bound to happen sooner or later. Can't be afraid to try new things. Anyway, good luck on your search! 

 

[OwOOwO]

.... I will look more into THE metal IEM. 
....

I have read your earlier post, it seems to me you are looking for a V-shaped sound signature.
http://theheadphonelist.com/earphone-buyers-guide/
this may help a bit. Give the ones in the V-shape section some audition.

 

[castleofargh]

 

.... I will look more into THE metal IEM. 
....

I have read your earlier post, it seems to me you are looking for a V-shaped sound signature.
http://theheadphonelist.com/earphone-buyers-guide/
this may help a bit. Give the ones in the V-shape section some audition.

you think the IE80 isn't V shaped enough? ^_^
I understood kind of the opposite from his posts in fact. , but as always, the difficulties of interpreting sounds with words.

 

[159650]

In my opinion, not quite. The IE8 and 80 are distinguished by their bass performance, wide sound stage and remarkable detail despite the heavy handed bass. But I personally find the IE8 to have a good amount of mids, tons down low, but lack the overall high extension to make it quite V sound. The IE8 is closer to a V shaped sound, but isn't exactly the definition of V shaped sound. Not sure what is, but I think the IE8 isn't quite it. Perhaps the IE800?

 

[castleofargh]

I put in the Vshaped bag anything that has boosted bass, recessed mids, boosted trebles. the IE80 fits just fine in my bag ^_^. sure the boost could start sooner or later in the frequencies and be of different magnitudes, as you can see my bag has a rather large opening.

 

[159650]

Well I will concede that the bass and the highs on the IE8 and IE80 are good enough to pass off as V shaped. Afterall, the guy who sold me my IE8 used those exact words when talking about them. 

 

[Tail]

  The IE8 and 80 are distinguished by their bass performance, wide sound stage and remarkable detail despite the heavy handed bass.

I would disagree about remarkable detail despite heavy bass.. it's not that detailed at all even compared to much cheaper earphones. That bass veils and slows whole midrange and doesn't exactly sound remarkably detailed. It's not so bad at all but far from remarkable, especially with earphones in the similar price range. At least that is my experience when comparing to couple of other similar priced or even cheaper earphones.   Which iems did you have experience with? 

 

[159650]

  I would disagree about remarkable detail despite heavy bass.. it's not that detailed at all even compared to much cheaper earphones. That bass veils and slows whole midrange and doesn't exactly sound remarkably detailed. It's not so bad at all but far from remarkable, especially with earphones in the similar price range. At least that is my experience when comparing to couple of other similar priced or even cheaper earphones.   Which iems did you have experience with? 

I own only a few other old top tiers I admit. I haven't kept up with upgrading partly due to financial reasons but mostly due to sentimentality. I had a Shure SE530, but still own the TF10 and Westone 3. I was merely remarking on the IE8 having remarkable detail despite the heavy bass. Not that it had remarkable detail for the price. The TF10 will easily outperform in detail, same goes for the Shure SE530. But the IE8 has gobs of bass, so much so that I can't imagine having as much detail for the amount of bass particularly since it's a single dynamic driver model. I wouldn't be as surprised if the earphone was a multi-driver setup like the W3. The W3 has lots of bass and good detail as well. But the IE8 is rather special in that it has adjustable bass and very wide sound stage. One of the few that has the big can sound IMHO. Other IEMs that I own are the KEF M200, Fidue A83, Shure SE535 (had).