[elmoe]

 
So to make them sound good you need something that adds warmth (distortion) and smears details. Okay.

[/ROLLING MY ******* EYES]

The SA5000 isn't a good headphone. It's essentially an open-air, angled Grado. Except, nasty ringing and resonances aside, Grados actually have fast attack. The SA5000 doesn't. It does sound fast at first listen but as you keep using it you realize it's just faking speed by being dry, bass light, and treble happy. It's slow and its treble is extremely out of control. The soundstage is extremely closed in sounding and they have problems with distortion in the bass. It's one of the worst headphones I've ever used.

The HD800 is a good headphone. It actually has bass and it has excellent attack and decay. They're completely incomparable in my opinion.

Well aren't you a ray of sunshine.

So what you're essentially saying is that tube amps make music listening worse.

I guess I'll do you a favor and not be as rude as you've been in this post by rolling my eyes and all.

Not everybody is an elitist audiophile with no interest in music.

 

[takato14]

Well aren't you a ray of sunshine.

So what you're essentially saying is that tube amps make music listening worse.

I guess I'll do you a favor and not be as rude as you've been in this post by rolling my eyes and all.

Not everybody is an elitist audiophile with no interest in music.

I have interest in music, I just don't exactly enjoy it when my headphones are fighting me every step of the way. Or the amplifier, for that matter. At my core I am a music lover, not an audiophile. I've just been spoiled by good headphones. 
 
My apologies if I came off as rude, I'm just an opinionated shᴉthead who tends to over-exaggerate his arguments. I haven't heard tubes yet but they are objectively inferior to solid state amplification by nature. If they do in fact impart some kind of "magic" to the sound, then perhaps one day I'll hear it and change my opinion, but for now I have to trust what science tells me.

 

[streetdragon]

  I have interest in music, I just don't exactly enjoy it when my headphones are fighting me every step of the way. Or the amplifier, for that matter. At my core I am a music lover, not an audiophile. I've just been spoiled by good headphones. 
 
My apologies if I came off as rude, I'm just an opinionated shᴉthead who tends to over-exaggerate his arguments. I haven't heard tubes yet but they are objectively inferior to solid state amplification by nature. If they do in fact impart some kind of "magic" to the sound, then perhaps one day I'll hear it and change my opinion, but for now I have to trust what science tells me.

So I would say that you better listen to some tubes before you actually comment about them, just so you know what you are talking about.

 

[elmoe]

  So I would say that you better listen to some tubes before you actually comment about them, just so you know what you are talking about.

 
Took the words right out of my mouth. For someone defending a headphone (HD800) that is notoriously difficult to pair with the right amp, you'll forgive me if I don't take your opinions very seriously.
 
And I'll add that if you feel building a synergistic system is "fighting" you're in the wrong hobby.

 

[takato14]

 

  So I would say that you better listen to some tubes before you actually comment about them, just so you know what you are talking about.

 
Took the words right out of my mouth. For someone defending a headphone (HD800) that is notoriously difficult to pair with the right amp, you'll forgive me if I don't take your opinions very seriously.
 
And I'll add that if you feel building a synergistic system is "fighting" you're in the wrong hobby.

The HD800 isn't hard to pair, it just scales wildly with better gear because of how clean and capable it is. The HD800 won't sound "bad" out of low end gear, but if you've heard it out of higher end gear the difference will be astronomical. The HD800 sounded great straight out of my portable player at a meet but sounded a good 30x better with the big Audio-GD SA-31 that was on the table.
 
The SA5000 is just a bad headphone. I tried it out of the exact same amp (brought my pair to the meet) and it didn't improve at all, it was still the same slow hissy mess of treble that it was out of my Pandora. Since the SA5ks are relatively low impedance they need high current and low voltage; exactly what the SA-31 is designed for.
 
You can have the most synergistic system on the planet but it doesn't change the fact that the SA5000 is a bad headphone and that tubes are objectively worse than solid state. I rest my case.

 

[subtle]

  I have interest in music.
 
I haven't heard tubes yet but they are objectively inferior to solid state amplification by nature. If they do in fact impart some kind of "magic" to the sound, then perhaps one day I'll hear it and change my opinion, but for now I have to trust what science tells me.

 
Ignorance be bliss yo.

 

[elmoe]

  The HD800 isn't hard to pair, it just scales wildly with better gear because of how clean and capable it is. The HD800 won't sound "bad" out of low end gear, but if you've heard it out of higher end gear the difference will be astronomical. The HD800 sounded great straight out of my portable player at a meet but sounded a good 30x better with the big Audio-GD SA-31 that was on the table.
 
The SA5000 is just a bad headphone. I tried it out of the exact same amp (brought my pair to the meet) and it didn't improve at all, it was still the same slow hissy mess of treble that it was out of my Pandora. Since the SA5ks are relatively low impedance they need high current and low voltage; exactly what the SA-31 is designed for.
 
You can have the most synergistic system on the planet but it doesn't change the fact that the SA5000 is a bad headphone and that tubes are objectively worse than solid state. I rest my case.

 
Rest your case if you want, I've been in this for over a decade and heard a myriad of headphones and systems, and the SA5ks are one of the best headphones you can buy for the money hands down. They may not be your cup of tea, but you obviously don't know what you're talking about, and taking one look at that huge list of cheap headphones/amps/sources you have in your profile tells me not to take your opinion seriously, especially since in your extended "heard" list, the SA5k is NOT listed, but it is however listed in your "want" list.
 
Seems to me someone who put so much time making that kind of list wouldn't "forget" a flagship pair of cans in their list...

 

[takato14]

 
Rest your case if you want, I've been in this for over a decade and heard a myriad of headphones and systems, and the SA5ks are one of the best headphones you can buy for the money hands down. They may not be your cup of tea, but you obviously don't know what you're talking about, and taking one look at that huge list of cheap headphones/amps/sources you have in your profile tells me not to take your opinion seriously, especially since in your extended "heard" list, the SA5k is NOT listed, but it is however listed in your "want" list.
 
Seems to me someone who put so much time making that kind of list wouldn't "forget" a flagship pair of cans in their list...

I've owned the SA3000, which uses the same drivers as the SA5000. The headphones measure almost identically, with the SA5000 having a tiny bit more bass. I do want to at least hear the SA5000, but I want it for the shell so I can use it for a DIY project. Because if the SA5000 did anything right, it was comfort and looks.
 
With the SA3000 available (which regularly goes for <$150 mint in box), I can't possibly see where the SA5000 could be considered good for the money. Most sell for $500. You could get a DT880, HE-400, K701, etc for less and you'd have a far better headphone.
 
What cheap headphones? My $800 Fostex TH600? My $600 Stax SR-X MKIII? My $500 Sony DR-Z7? Yeah, there's a lot of low end and vintage stuff on there too, but a lot of it I'm trying to sell. Some of them are genuinely good sounding too. Just because I kept most of my old gear doesn't mean I haven't heard my fair share of good headphones. Hell, look at my had list too...

 

[elmoe]

  I've owned the SA3000, which uses the same drivers as the SA5000. The headphones measure almost identically, with the SA5000 having a tiny bit more bass. I do want to at least hear the SA5000, but I want it for the shell so I can use it for a DIY project. Because if the SA5000 did anything right, it was comfort and looks.
 
With the SA3000 available (which regularly goes for <$150 mint in box), I can't possibly see where the SA5000 could be considered good for the money. Most sell for $500. You could get a DT880, HE-400, K701, etc for less and you'd have a far better headphone.
 
What cheap headphones? My $800 Fostex TH600? My $600 Stax SR-X MKIII? My $500 Sony DR-Z7? Yeah, there's a lot of low end and vintage stuff on there too, but a lot of it I'm trying to sell. Some of them are genuinely good sounding too. Just because I kept most of my old gear doesn't mean I haven't heard my fair share of good headphones. Hell, look at my had list too...

 
So not only have you not heard tube amps yet comment on them like you're an authority on the subject, you come in this topic to bash on the SA5000 which you've never even heard.
 
You're the worst type of Head-Fier. Hopefully anyone reading this thread will now know better than to listen to your misinformed opinions.

 

[kramer5150]

So wait a sec ... If you haven't actually heard the sa5k or a tube amp... What exactly are you basing your opinions on?

 

[TimPrice]

 
The SA5000 isn't a good headphone. It's essentially an open-air, angled Grado. Except, nasty ringing and resonances aside, Grados actually have fast attack. The SA5000 doesn't. It does sound fast at first listen but as you keep using it you realize it's just faking speed by being dry, bass light, and treble happy. It's slow and its treble is extremely out of control. The soundstage is extremely closed in sounding and they have problems with distortion in the bass. It's one of the worst headphones I've ever used.

 
The only fact that I can extract from that pile of nonsense is that you never, in your miserable ignorant troll existence, compared waterfall plots of any headphones.

 

[takato14]

 

 
The SA5000 isn't a good headphone. It's essentially an open-air, angled Grado. Except, nasty ringing and resonances aside, Grados actually have fast attack. The SA5000 doesn't. It does sound fast at first listen but as you keep using it you realize it's just faking speed by being dry, bass light, and treble happy. It's slow and its treble is extremely out of control. The soundstage is extremely closed in sounding and they have problems with distortion in the bass. It's one of the worst headphones I've ever used.

 
The only fact that I can extract from that pile of nonsense is that you never, in your miserable ignorant troll existence, compared waterfall plots of any headphones.

I meant the SA5000's tonality was similar to Grados. I use CSDs all the time; I am well aware that the SA5000 has better waterfall plots than (most) Grado headphones. 
 

 

  I've owned the SA3000, which uses the same drivers as the SA5000. The headphones measure almost identically, with the SA5000 having a tiny bit more bass. I do want to at least hear the SA5000, but I want it for the shell so I can use it for a DIY project. Because if the SA5000 did anything right, it was comfort and looks.
 
With the SA3000 available (which regularly goes for <$150 mint in box), I can't possibly see where the SA5000 could be considered good for the money. Most sell for $500. You could get a DT880, HE-400, K701, etc for less and you'd have a far better headphone.
 
What cheap headphones? My $800 Fostex TH600? My $600 Stax SR-X MKIII? My $500 Sony DR-Z7? Yeah, there's a lot of low end and vintage stuff on there too, but a lot of it I'm trying to sell. Some of them are genuinely good sounding too. Just because I kept most of my old gear doesn't mean I haven't heard my fair share of good headphones. Hell, look at my had list too...

 
So not only have you not heard tube amps yet comment on them like you're an authority on the subject, you come in this topic to bash on the SA5000 which you've never even heard.
 
You're the worst type of Head-Fier. Hopefully anyone reading this thread will now know better than to listen to your misinformed opinions.
 

So wait a sec ... If you haven't actually heard the sa5k or a tube amp... What exactly are you basing your opinions on?

The SA5000 IS the SA3000 with leather pads and a magnesium frame. They are literally completely the same save for the two differences I just noted. Don't believe me, check their measurements sheets:
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SonyMDRSA3000.pdf
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SonyMDRVSA5000.pdf
 
And as for the tube amp part, objective measurements prove that tubes are inferior to solid state because of tube response time (smeared details) and the high THD (warmth) introduced by them. This does have limited bearing on subjective listening, and no I haven't heard a tube amp yet, but as I said, for now I'll have to trust what science tells me, and science says that not only do tubes introduce the problems I mentioned earlier but that they are also voltage-driven, and since the SA5000 is low impedance a voltage-driven amplifier will not be a good match for it.
 
The worst type of Head-Fi'ers are the people who don't listen to scientific fact or logic. Sound is a SCIENCE, everything is EXPLAINABLE, there are RULES. When people say things that contradict those rules, well, sorry if I'm a little hesitant to believe them.

 

[kramer5150]

That's all fine and dandy, I mean yes most definitely there is a place for scientific method, measurement and quantifiable analysis.  The problem with your commentary is other members can mis-interpret what you are saying as though it is a first hand listening impression.  Yours is a subjective option that's not based on listening experiences, but rather, based on reading data plots and measurements.
 
It would be easy if what measures good actually sounds good... but to many this is just not the case.  Many of us have purchased equipment that measures good.  Only to find out, it doesn't sound good.

 

[streetdragon]

  I meant the SA5000's tonality was similar to Grados. I use CSDs all the time; I am well aware that the SA5000 has better waterfall plots than (most) Grado headphones. 
 
The SA5000 IS the SA3000 with leather pads and a magnesium frame. They are literally completely the same save for the two differences I just noted. Don't believe me, check their measurements sheets:
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SonyMDRSA3000.pdf
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SonyMDRVSA5000.pdf
 
And as for the tube amp part, objective measurements prove that tubes are inferior to solid state because of tube response time (smeared details) and the high THD (warmth) introduced by them. This does have limited bearing on subjective listening, and no I haven't heard a tube amp yet, but as I said, for now I'll have to trust what science tells me, and science says that not only do tubes introduce the problems I mentioned earlier but that they are also voltage-driven, and since the SA5000 is low impedance a voltage-driven amplifier will not be a good match for it.
 
The worst type of Head-Fi'ers are the people who don't listen to scientific fact or logic. Sound is a SCIENCE, everything is EXPLAINABLE, there are RULES. When people say things that contradict those rules, well, sorry if I'm a little hesitant to believe them.

So please explain why the HD518 and HD598 are so different when they have the same drivers and measure very similarly with "just" different earpads. And how such poorly measuring grado's can sound good.

Our ears and brain are not science instruments, how we interpret sound with our ears and how we interprete science with our eyes are different.

This hobby is experience guided, then we study the science behind it. Science itself does not entirely dictate our listen experiences. If you do not have first hand experience in fair and good conditions you have no right to be absolute with your opinions. Even then opinions are opinions. Grado and Alessandro headphones all measure very poorly yet they can sound wonderfully good to many people.

Not saying about SA5000 or the HD800 because i have not had optimal time with them before but I'm just stating that the reasoning you are using is not adequate.

 

[elmoe]

Funny how the SA5k and SA3k measure exactly the same yet you like the SA3k enough to own a pair, yet the SA5k sounds terrible 

 
I'll stop feeding the troll now.