[Goofy145]

 
Yes that's what neutral means.  Like some of the others, tho, I'm puzzled by what you're hearing without putting the digizoid in the chain. The 650's have slightly more bass than neutral, which you should like.  The mids and highs are nice and balanced and smooth and NOT harsh or punishing.  So, while I accept that you are perceiving what you are perceiving, it is not at all similar to what a boatload of HD6xx owners experience.

Alright so I've been switching back and forth to try and figure out what is going on. I really think it's just a question of bass... I was trying to raise the volume to get more bass, but eventually the highs are going to be harsh if you raise the volume high enough in any headphone.
 
The highs and mids are fine at lower volumes. The problem really is just that I'm a basshead and I need a certain amount of bass to be happy, otherwise I'm going to raise the volume to try and extract more bass and the high frequencies are just going to overwhelm me.
 
They have a good amount of bass, just not enough for me without the ZO2. I can totally see them being enjoyable at a lower volume for most people, but I guess I like a headphone with a big lean towards bass, not just a slight lean. The headphones people list in the basshead thread don't interest me because I want comfort and I'm just speculating but I think there's more clarity to the mids/highs with my setup, even though I'm basically just throwing eq at it to get what I want.
 
edit: I would have loved to buy he400s instead, but they were simply too loose on my head. I don't like the circular cups either. I think the he400s are way better for me, but I still love the hd650s because of their comfort and fit. I'll probably buy something like the he400s some day just to get the sound signature I want, but I don't see myself throwing away the hd650s because I really enjoy them.

 

[donlin]

Alright so I've been switching back and forth to try and figure out what is going on. I really think it's just a question of bass... I was trying to raise the volume to get more bass, but eventually the highs are going to be harsh if you raise the volume high enough in any headphone.

The highs and mids are fine at lower volumes. The problem really is just that I'm a basshead and I need a certain amount of bass to be happy, otherwise I'm going to raise the volume to try and extract more bass and the high frequencies are just going to overwhelm me.

They have a good amount of bass, just not enough for me without the ZO2. I can totally see them being enjoyable at a lower volume for most people, but I guess I like a headphone with a big lean towards bass, not just a slight lean. The headphones people list in the basshead thread don't interest me because I want comfort and I'm just speculating but I think there's more clarity to the mids/highs with my setup, even though I'm basically just throwing eq at it to get what I want.

You should try to find a used Denon 7000. Very comfortable with monster bass.

 

[Billheiser]

  Alright so I've been switching back and forth to try and figure out what is going on. I really think it's just a question of bass... I was trying to raise the volume to get more bass, but eventually the highs are going to be harsh if you raise the volume high enough in any headphone.
 
The highs and mids are fine at lower volumes. The problem really is just that I'm a basshead and I need a certain amount of bass to be happy, otherwise I'm going to raise the volume to try and extract more bass and the high frequencies are just going to overwhelm me.
 
They have a good amount of bass, just not enough for me without the ZO2. I can totally see them being enjoyable at a lower volume for most people, but I guess I like a headphone with a big lean towards bass, not just a slight lean. The headphones people list in the basshead thread don't interest me because I want comfort and I'm just speculating but I think there's more clarity to the mids/highs with my setup, even though I'm basically just throwing eq at it to get what I want.

OK.  To me, the Sennheisers give me what I play - they faithfully reproduce things, so I hear bombastic bass and impact if it's on the song.  Without messing things up that should NOT be bass-boosted, such as most male vocals.  
So it's ok to want extreme basshead phones, but just know that some can boost stuff so that it's no longer "high fidelity" to the source.

 

[Billheiser]

You should try to find a used Denon 7000. Very comfortable with monster bass.

Good suggestion.  Or the Denon D2000 or D5000 for less $.  Or try the HiFiMan HE400.

 

[Goofy145]

 
Good suggestion.  Or the Denon D2000 or D5000 for less $.  Or try the HiFiMan HE400.

I'd prefer those for their sound signature no doubt, but I don't think I could wear those all day like the hd650. Half the time it doesn't feel like I'm wearing anything on my head. That's the main reason I picked these.

 

[Lorspeaker]

denons are v light on the head,..v comfy.

 

[castleofargh]

 

 
Yes that's what neutral means.  Like some of the others, tho, I'm puzzled by what you're hearing without putting the digizoid in the chain. The 650's have slightly more bass than neutral, which you should like.  The mids and highs are nice and balanced and smooth and NOT harsh or punishing.  So, while I accept that you are perceiving what you are perceiving, it is not at all similar to what a boatload of HD6xx owners experience.

Alright so I've been switching back and forth to try and figure out what is going on. I really think it's just a question of bass... I was trying to raise the volume to get more bass, but eventually the highs are going to be harsh if you raise the volume high enough in any headphone.
 
The highs and mids are fine at lower volumes. The problem really is just that I'm a basshead and I need a certain amount of bass to be happy, otherwise I'm going to raise the volume to try and extract more bass and the high frequencies are just going to overwhelm me.
 
They have a good amount of bass, just not enough for me without the ZO2. I can totally see them being enjoyable at a lower volume for most people, but I guess I like a headphone with a big lean towards bass, not just a slight lean. The headphones people list in the basshead thread don't interest me because I want comfort and I'm just speculating but I think there's more clarity to the mids/highs with my setup, even though I'm basically just throwing eq at it to get what I want.
 
edit: I would have loved to buy he400s instead, but they were simply too loose on my head. I don't like the circular cups either. I think the he400s are way better for me, but I still love the hd650s because of their comfort and fit. I'll probably buy something like the he400s some day just to get the sound signature I want, but I don't see myself throwing away the hd650s because I really enjoy them.

it's all about conventions and references. for speakers it's accepted to have a frequency response that is electrically flat(so you can measure the same loudness for almost frequencies). but when reaching our ears, the air and the room will have attenuated the trebles a little, so what we call neutral isn't exactly it.
when using headphones, and even more so for IEMs, you can keep that logic and buy a headphone that is close to electrically flat, but it will not at all sound the same. electrically flat would be close to what we call V shaped signature on headphones. so most headphones boost the mids at least to try and recreate what we can experience with speakers. that's what people will tend to call neutral for headphones.
and at last many people feel like headphones are lacking bass because we don't have our body feeling the bass like on speakers. many consumer headphones have from +5db to +10db in the bass region to try and compensate for that lack of "tactile" bass.
all in all you can get as many definition of neutral as you want. and as far as headphones are concerned, it's still very much a work in progress. but when we talk about neutral in here, we usually talk about brighter than the hd650. that's why we tend to call it warm or recessed in the medium or whatever you can read about it. your tastes obviously require the bass boost, others don't like that boost because to them it reduces their ability to hear the details in the medium. it's really all a matter of personal tastes(at least as long as it's at our audio listener's level).
you might want to look into a few denon headphones as suggested, some are massively bassy and you will without a doubt feel the rumble and warmth you seem to be looking for. but first you may just want to get a good parametric EQ for foobar and play with it a bit(just remember to set back the EQ gain for the higher setting to go back to 0db to avoid clipping).

 

[Krutsch]

   
That's one that's already on my list. I need to do more reading. You people in the States don't know how lucky you are being able to go to meets and hear stuff without pressure. Here it's a bit suck it and see.  Thanks for the suggestion.

My last two DACs are made in the UK, so you might be able to audition something that fits your budget. My last DAC was the Arcam rDac and they can be found cheap now on eBay, et al.
 
I think the USB input for that DAC is pretty good (limited to 96k, but who cares); Arcam licensed code from dCS for the async USB implementaion and it's very smooth and rich sounding.
 
Might be a nice complement to your Project Ember. Just a suggestion and YMMV... But, beware, the Arcam rDac does not present a "neutral" or "transparent" sound, so you may not like the transition from your ODAC.
 
On that last point, I'll throw this out: my Rega DAC is infamous as a "colored" DAC (or is it "coloured" 

 ) and I was nervous matching it with an OTL amp, then plugging in the infamously "veiled" HD-650s, but that combo is pure magic for me/my ears/my brain.

 

[JamieMcC]

   
Interesting post. Until last week I thought I'd reached my own happy place as regards headphones but then I got to hear the Project Ember & realized I might still have some way to go. It's making me wonder what I might hear if I upgrade my DAC. The trouble is I'm not sure where to go as an upgrade from the ODAC, especially since I'm not made of money and it would have to be under £300. I can't really see me buying a Schiit product to be honest. but they do get good reviews. I'm not too sure what else is available in that price range.

I find myself somewhat in the same boat I am very happy with the performance of the dac in my Marantz NA7004 on my head fi rig at the moment its miles better than any other source I have and it would be nice to relocate it into the main system so I can then have a streaming speaker set up  downstairs also. I have been looking at dacs that might take its place on the headfi rig for around the similar £300 price point. The ifican dac and Meridian director are the ones that caught my interest.

 

[Liu Junyuan]

Interesting: I actually opted for the o2/modi combo instead of magni/odac for my earlier setup. After some time, I really came to appreciate the O2 for what it does. You might consider keeping at it for a week or so. I sold the Modi only to upgrade to the Gungnir, which was very very noticeable as my DAC was the bottleneck in my system for nearly a year. I use both the O2 and the Lyr almost equally to this day. Love both for what they do but looking to the Lake People G109 for a new solid state setup.

Regarding dacs to consider coming from the ODAC, the Bifrost uber/usb is outstanding for the money; also in this range is the Resonessence Concero if you want a well-implemented Sabre chip under $1k.

Just curious: what are some of the DACs made in Britain? My first DAC was a Musical Fidelity VDAC and it was actually very good. Meier Audio??

 

[Sundown]

Anyone using the Vali/Modi? 

 

[HPiper]

  Anyone using the Vali/Modi? 

Yes, what would you like to know?

 

[Sundown]

 
Yes, what would you like to know?

Nothing

 

[Solrighal]

 
My last two DACs are made in the UK, so you might be able to audition something that fits your budget. My last DAC was the Arcam rDac and they can be found cheap now on eBay, et al.
 
I think the USB input for that DAC is pretty good (limited to 96k, but who cares); Arcam licensed code from dCS for the async USB implementaion and it's very smooth and rich sounding.
 
Might be a nice complement to your Project Ember. Just a suggestion and YMMV... But, beware, the Arcam rDac does not present a "neutral" or "transparent" sound, so you may not like the transition from your ODAC.
 
On that last point, I'll throw this out: my Rega DAC is infamous as a "colored" DAC (or is it "coloured" 

 ) and I was nervous matching it with an OTL amp, then plugging in the infamously "veiled" HD-650s, but that combo is pure magic for me/my ears/my brain.

 
I've had bad experiences with Arcam products in the past so I'd probably not go for them but the Rega is interesting. I actually do have a Rega dealer about 30 miles away and he's very good at loaning stuff out. I bought my Marantz integrated amp from him and he built my Mogami's for me. I'll give him a ring tomorrow and see what he says. Thanks for the heads-up.

 
I find myself somewhat in the same boat I am very happy with the performance of the dac in my Marantz NA7004 on my head fi rig at the moment its miles better than any other source I have and it would be nice to relocate it into the main system so I can then have a streaming speaker set up  downstairs also. I have been looking at dacs that might take its place on the headfi rig for around the similar £300 price point. The ifican dac and Meridian director are the ones that caught my interest.

 
Meridian for £300? Wow! I thought their stuff was out of my range forever. I'll need to check that out somewhere. Thanks.

 

[donlin]

   
I've had bad experiences with Arcam products in the past so I'd probably not go for them but the Rega is interesting. I actually do have a Rega dealer about 30 miles away and he's very good at loaning stuff out. I bought my Marantz integrated amp from him and he built my Mogami's for me. I'll give him a ring tomorrow and see what he says. Thanks for the heads-up.
 
Meridian for £300? Wow! I thought their stuff was out of my range forever. I'll need to check that out somewhere. Thanks.

I had the Rega Apollo-R CD player for a while which I think has a very similar dac section to their DAC.  It was a really great sounding CD player and I'd probably still have it if it had balanced output.