[ac500]

> Here's another certainty, all tubes measure flat unless there is something wrong w/ them.
 
So then what is cause of the famous tube "coloration"?
 
> I love solid state and what's bets of all is there not much maintenance compared to tube gear. I like the neutrality that solid state provides as well as frequency extension. What is it you needed to know exactly? Did you want a cheap amp recommendation? Er I am tired now..
 
Well I asked for SS amp recommendations on the HD800 thread (I have an HD800 on its way in the mail) and everyone said basically that anything under $1500 will sound from crap to mediocre (others quoted $5000, etc.)
 
> As for the HD650 I feel the treble is what makes them sound less detailed. I hate how slurred the treble sounds on the HD650 and I could never recommend it.
 
Well the DT880 is slightly worse IMO, so I don't think there's that much better in the price range.

 

[GiacomoHoldini]

Quote:

 
Well the DT880 is slightly worse IMO, so I don't think there's that much better in the price range.

Zombie_X was just saying he greatly preferred the HD600.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

 
So then what is cause of the famous tube "coloration"?

Well isn't that a great question!  Probably the same thing that causes two similarly measuring solid state amps to sound noticeably different.
 
Actually it's much more complicated than SS but there are questions there as well.
 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

> Here's another certainty, all tubes measure flat unless there is something wrong w/ them.
 
So then what is cause of the famous tube "coloration"?

If by "flat" he just means frequency response then that's not too hard but there's lots of stuff beyond that.  The most obvious is the inherent distortion spectra.

 

[ac500]

Oops hang on, I completely missed that he said "all tubes measure FLAT unless there's something wrong with them."

There's a difference between "flat" and "linear". Nonlinear does not refer to the frequency response graph, although I understand why it would be mistaken based on terminology alone. "Linearity" refers the transfer function of the amplifier, and so is not really related to the frequency response so much as it is to harmonic distortion. Basic trigonometry will explain why harmonics arise from non-linearity ("sin^2 x = 1/2 - 1/2 cos 2x").
 
An amp could measure quite flat in an FR context but still be horribly nonlinear = harmonic distortion. So I guess the question is now, do good tube amps have as little harmonic distortion as SS amps? Edit: Looked it up on wikipedia... which says that tubes are pretty much unavoidably distorted.
 
Anyway I don't really want to turn this in to a tube vs SS debate because it really doesn't matter -- what sounds good to you is all that matters. If you like tube harmonic distortion, that's great and there's nothing wrong with that. Personally, I'm more for hifi though which means minimizing distortion.
 
I'm more interested in if you can indeed find a good SS amp for the HD800 for less than $1500

 

[Maxvla]

The HD600 is laid back?? LOL!! I bet you haven't even heard the HD600.

It is on most setups. It was for me until I paired with with a balanced rig with power to spare. At that point it was much more focused and really sang. Totally different headphone with scaled gear.

 

[Zombie_X]

Yes, this exactly. The HD650 is not bad at all, I just dislike their sonic signature a lot. I kinda bashed the HD650 and didn't mean to. My bad!
 
Quote:

Zombie_X was just saying he greatly preferred the HD600.

 

 

[Zombie_X]

Lol anything below $1,500 will sound like crap! You need a $5,000 amp to get the best. That a load of bollocks my friend. I wouldn't listen to that at all. The HD800 can sing on many sub $1,000 amps and I'll name a few. The HD800 is nearly as demanding as many claim. All it comes down to is sonic signature of the amp as well as sonic refinements the amp will give. You most certainly won't need a Liquid-Fire, that amp is $2,000 more expensive than it should be anyways. It's not a bad amp at all, in fact it's rather good  since it's both a hybrid and OTL design in one, it's just too much for what it is.
 
The Audio-GD NFB-10SE (only $499) can drive them incredibly well without clipping, distortion, or compromises. Heck in balanced mode the HD800 would be getting over 1W of power and the amp alone can swing 19V. That's even overkill power wise but it is nice to have the extra power. And in single ended mode the amp would only put out 300mW which is still more than enough, but balanced give you extra power and greatly reduces the chances of the gear running out of steam. 
 
Another example is the Matrix M-Stage ($250 or so) which can drive the HD800 very, very well and it sound great to boot! No need to drop over $1,000 if you don't need to. The amp may not as refined sounding as the pricier options but hell it sounds really darned good. I would say this amp sounds $400 good and it's a bit more than half of that. The only thing that may bug you is the soundstage and separation, but the differences aren't giant if you want to a $1,000 amp. This amp is based off the Black Cube Linear, and you know what? They sound nearly exactly the same. The BCL is a tad more refined and extended but the M-Stage is darn close!
 
Now one amp I have that I can recommend no doubt is the SPL Auditor. It may be $899, but it's a very good amp and can compete with many of the $2,000 amp's alone. It's powerful, super detailed, not sterile/clinical, and can drive the HD800 with absolute ease.
 
As I said earlier it's the typical Head-Fi hype that expensive headphones require an expensive amp to sound their best but that is not true at all. Don't believe that. You can get all the power and performance you need well under $1,000 for sure.
 
Quote:

 
Well I asked for SS amp recommendations on the HD800 thread (I have an HD800 on its way in the mail) and everyone said basically that anything under $1500 will sound from crap to mediocre (others quoted $5000, etc.)

 

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

I'm going to have to hear a Phonitor one of these days.  The impressions are all over the place wrt the HD800.  Though some of the ears I trust had rather unremarkable things to say about the pairing.  Hope one shows up at the Bay area meet so I can put some opinions into more context.

 

[ac500]

My main fear is not of being unable to power a headphone but to do so with sufficient quality. For example Headfonia's review of the NFB12 is titled "No Music", and as you would imagine they claim it doesn't sound very good despite all its components indicating that it would be great. So I guess I just don't know. Everything here is too confused and conflicted and subjective. It's frustrating.
 
Fortunately I should be able to make a meet nearby so I can hopefully actually try some amps out myself.

 

[Zombie_X]

If you ever want to buy one, get the Auditor. It's technically the better amp as is has less distortion and even less stuff in the signal path. The crossfeed circuit add a lot of distortion to the mix. Plus the Phonitor and Auditor use the same amp circuit, ao the Auditor sounds slightly better and is $1,000 cheaper!
 
Quote:

I'm going to have to hear a Phonitor one of these days.  The impressions are all over the place wrt the HD800.  Though some of the ears I trust had rather unremarkable things to say about the pairing.  Hope one shows up at the Bay area meet so I can put some opinions into more context.

 
 

 

[Zombie_X]

Sorry for the double post...
 
Yes it is quite confusing here and audio is purely subjective. The NFB12 does sound quite good, it just doesn't add much of anything to the music. It's fairly neutral sounding. For the price it's good, probably better than the FiiO E9, but it's held back by what it can and an't do. The internal DAC is lacking and that's probably why they gave it such a score. It doesn't have a line in so you are forced to use the internal DAC. The voltage swing is a bit lacking but the output power at 300Ohm is sufficient. I think it would do an ok job, but I would just recommend the NFB-10SE for just $300 more. It has a much better amp section as well as a DAC section.
 
Quote:

My main fear is not of being unable to power a headphone but to do so with sufficient quality. For example Headfonia's review of the NFB12 is titled "No Music", and as you would imagine they claim it doesn't sound very good despite all its components indicating that it would be great. So I guess I just don't know. Everything here is too confused and conflicted and subjective. It's frustrating.
 
Fortunately I should be able to make a meet nearby so I can hopefully actually try some amps out myself.

 

 

[n3rdling]

A tube can measure flat but that doesn't matter since it's the entire amp that needs to be measured.  Most tube amps aren't going to measure flat from 5-20,000 Hz, usually because output transformers can get pretty expensive.  Here's a bunch of info on tube sound:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound
 
Try the HD800 from your soundcard.  If it sounds too clinical I'd suggest an OTL tube amp which are pretty much the only amps I'd pair with that headphone.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

A tube can measure flat but that doesn't matter since it's the entire amp that needs to be measured.  Most tube amps aren't going to measure flat from 5-20,000 Hz, usually because output transformers can get pretty expensive.  Here's a bunch of info on tube sound:

The tubes I'm referring to were measured from hybrid amps, not OTL or tubes alone.  HD800 sounds great from the BA and Super7 w/o need for being OTL.  Being clinical from a soundcard is the least of my concerns and largely irrelevant wrt to the HD800 as it's a non sequitur IMHO.  Thx for the link, read it a long time ago early in my journey.
 

 

[Maxvla]

I'm going to have to hear a Phonitor one of these days.  The impressions are all over the place wrt the HD800.  Though some of the ears I trust had rather unremarkable things to say about the pairing.  Hope one shows up at the Bay area meet so I can put some opinions into more context.

My impression of the Phonitor/Auditor as a headphone amp (not counting the cool stuff the Phonitor can do) is that it is clean and smooth, but ultimately boring and uninvolving. Heard it with my RE262 (which I own and like for the $) and Ultrasone Edition 9 (which I did not care for especially for the $). Neither combo was all that great. It was a source I wasn't familiar with, however so take my impressions with a grain of salt. Typically a source won't make things flat and dull, however, usually that's in the domain of the amp.