[raband]

I was, and continue to be, wrong almost every single time I post in this thread

FTFY

 

[CooloutAC]

3d audio is a superset of 7.1 audio where you can have things like up and down (so all 3 dimensions are represented). An example is dolby atmos. Now if you want to listen to either format on headphones and have good sound localization, you're gonna need an hrtf downmix. An example is dolby atmos for headphones. The two things are similarly named, but they are distinct.

In this thread, people are using the sennheiser gsx as an hrtf for 7.1 audio. If the game has 3d audio, it can scale down to 7.1 or you would have to get a new hrtf if you wanted the height channels.

yes, exactly. thats the "TRUE" definition of 3d sound. Explain that to the other guy.

But I'm not sure dolby atmos does that. I've never really heard up and down sounds in anything.

And I have to disagree when it comes to gaming, especially nowadays, if you want a good 3d / surround sound or good positional audio, all you need is headphones with good soundstage and the game itself.

 

[mindbomb]

yes, exactly. thats the "TRUE" definition of 3d sound. Explain that to the other guy.

But I'm not sure dolby atmos does that. I've never really heard up and down sounds in anything.

And I have to disagree when it comes to gaming, especially nowadays, if you want a good 3d / surround sound or good positional audio, all you need is headphones with good soundstage and the game itself.

Dolby atmos is a surround sound format that can store height, in addition to other directions. If you want to hear those directions on headphones, that's the job of the hrtf, which is a distinct thing.

Even if you have a game with a sophisticated object based audio engine, and headphones with amazing soundstage, you still need an hrtf for good sound localization on headphones. On headphones, the hrtf is the mechanism that allows a trained listener to differentiate between front and back, or up and down. Otherwise those sounds could be identical because there is only left and right in a stereo layout.

With stereo, the way people perceive those directions is through keyboard and mouse movements (analogous to head tracking in vr) or visual feedback. On the other hand, a trained hrtf user could continue to localize in those directions with their hands off the controls and blindfolded. That has gameplay consequences since you can't always be swinging your head and moving around or always have eyes on whatever is shooting or generating sounds.

 

[CooloutAC]

Dolby atmos is a surround sound format that can store height, in addition to other directions. If you want to hear those directions on headphones, that's the job of the hrtf, which is a distinct thing.

Even if you have a game with a sophisticated object based audio engine, and headphones with amazing soundstage, you still need an hrtf for good sound localization on headphones. On headphones, the hrtf is the mechanism that allows a trained listener to differentiate between front and back, or up and down. Otherwise those sounds could be identical because there is only left and right in a stereo layout.

With stereo, the way people perceive those directions is through keyboard and mouse movements (analogous to head tracking in vr) or visual feedback. On the other hand, a trained hrtf user could continue to localize in those directions with their hands off the controls and blindfolded. That has gameplay consequences since you can't always be swinging your head and moving around or always have eyes on whatever is shooting or generating sounds.

but so I guess like others have found out, you really need a game to support dolby atmos directly. And it seems overwatch is the only one doing so right now? And it seems 50-50 with people. It did do something to the sounds even if not direclty supported. But nothing special or worth the 15 dollars.

 

[CooloutAC]

This is not so complicated. I think a game will likely have a 3d audio system internally, but use pcm audio outputs. It's possible in the future, games will start using dolby atmos or windows sonic for 3d audio output more. However, regardless of whether the game outputs an object based format or surround sound pcm, you still need an hrtf downmix to have good sound localization on headphones. That doesn't change.

I'm tempted to try overwatch just to see. BUt I'm sure bf1 still sounds better lol.

 

[CooloutAC]

The video is nice. Once the output is set to stereo, I can hear sound from above and below, when direct in fron to the soud source and the camera islooking up or down.

you're right the video aint bad. I do hear the music going up and down, I think the video is helping to trick the mind too in this case. wish I did it with my eyes closed first lol. But that is their intended purpose cause the sound changes.

But I found i hear the music, not just drums, more spatial including up and down when setting windows to 5.1, not stereo.

BUt the problem with that is everything becomes really tinny. I don't get the subwoofer. I have the same problem on linux with direct channels speaker set. I don't get the subwoofer adjustments. Using realtek. always been a prob for years. otherwise it would be perfect. Stereo doesn't have nearly the 3d effect but still works kind of I guess, but with full sound.


But in the case of bf1, I have windows on stereo and 5.1 set in the game. they dynamic ranges are not as good or i forget what you call distances of sounds, but directional is just as good. But it sounds way more powerful, the bass channel is there.

We'll see what dolby atmos does in the future or what game devs do with it. But right now seems like just hype.

IN bf1 my setup is not as immersive, but its basically cheating directional wise lol. I hope ea doesn't change it. I've always liked EA games, since the very first one I played in 1986, they try to make it sporting at least. so same advantages the more "computer literate" types have over others they try to give to everyone by default. I love the loud footsteps in bf1. but stereo vs 7.1 is a big difference with my headphones.

In fact the bf1 audio setup I'm using is the only reason I'm able to hang half the time on these stacked servers in whats been a dead industry for a decade now.

 

[Wontell]

Guys, need a recommendation, Creative AE-5 or GSX 1000?
The creatives come with 122dB 32-bit/384kHz ESS Sabre ESS ES9016K2M and per channel amplifier and uses creative virtual surround.
Im a headphone only kind of user, no speakers, but i dont listen to music, so I need surround for games and movies, stereo for YT videos.
My onboard also has ESS9018Q2C DAC, Texas Instruments LME49620 op-amp and WIMA with Nichicon Fine Gold audio capacitors and TXC oscillators (whatever that means) but the DSP is of course simple Realtek and it uses castrated Creative AE-5 software.

I was thinking of maybe GSX 1000 for movies and games, always keep it in 7.1 and keep my Onboard with the sabre DAC in strictly stereo mode for YT and otehr stereo sources.
Or getting Creative AE-5 and Disabling on board card and using it for everything.

GSX1000 is more expensive but i found one on Amazon Germany it comes to 228$ with shipping and taxes the AE-5 is 205USD with shipping and taxes on Amazon Germany and 190$ with shipping and taxes on Amazon.com

 

[x7007]

Do you guys use Natural or Story EQ ? for games .

Do you use the Reverb on games at all ?

Because I have the DT990 Edition/Premium 600 ohms so it has quite strong Soundstage already

 

[Glasofruix]

No reverb and no EQ, and you'd need some serious amp for those headphones.

 

[ironcross12]

Guys thinking of buying the GSX 1200 for my Shen HD 700 i have been using my motherboard to power them now looking for a different option that will give be better quality sound.
Would this be a good option?

 

[pietcux]

Guys thinking of buying the GSX 1200 for my Shen HD 700 i have been using my motherboard to power them now looking for a different option that will give be better quality sound.
Would this be a good option?

It should work quite well. I drive both, my HD650 and the HD660S from my GSX1000. Only that I select this for games and movies, not for music.

 

[raband]

700's are my main goto for the unit.

 

[Wontell]

700's are my main goto for the unit.

I see you have 400i, how do they perform with GSX1000?
I ordered and waiting for 400i and Game One + GSX1200 and Sound blaster AE5, will keep only one of each

 

[ColinMacLaren]

@CooloutAC's trolling fun.

Most games today use a proprietary sound engine.Sound sources are always objects in a three dimensional space. However, they are mixed to 7.1 channels where any top/down information is largely lost. Which game uses what is detailed here: http://satsun.org/audio/

So it works like this. (Whenever a game does not offer the option to select speaker setup it is using what is currently presented in Windows sound settings):

A) Normal 7.1 Home Cinema Setup, speakers set to 7.1 in Windows, game set to 7.1:

Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to 7.1 speakers, where upwards/downwards information is largely lost -> 7.1 Channel game sound -> 7.1 channels sent to speaker setup.
No upwards/downwards separation.

B) Home Cinema Setup or Headphones, speakers set to 2.0 in Windows, game set to 2.0

Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to 2.0 speakers, where upwards/downwards and front/back information is largely lost -> 2.0 sound sent to speaker setup -> upfill of the 2.0 signal by the receiver.
No upwards/downwards separation.
No front/back separation.

C) Home Cinema Setup, speakers set to 2.0 in Windows, game set to 7.1:

Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to 7.1 speakers, where upwards/downwards and front/back information is largely lost -> 7.1 sound sent to Windows Audio Service -> Downmix to 2.0, where front/back separation is completely lost -> 2.0 signal sent to receiver -> upfill of the 2.0 signal by the receiver.
No upwards/downwards separation.
No front/back separation.

D) Stereo Headset on soundcard with HRTF-based surround simulation, speakers set to 7.1 in Windows, game set to 7.1:

Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to 7.1 speakers, where upwards/downwards information is largely lost -> 7.1 channels sent to soundcard -> HRTF-processing to Stereo output on Headphones.
No upwards/downwards separation.

E) Stereo Headset on soundcard with HRTF-based surround simulation, speakers set to 2.0 in Windows, game set to 2.0:

Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to 2.0 speakers, where upwards/downwards and front/back information is largely lost -> 2.0 sound sent to soundcard ->
> adding some reverb -> Stereo Output on Headphones
No upwards/downwards separation.
No front/back separation.

F) Stereo Headset on soundcard with HRTF-based surround simulation, speakers set to 2.0 in Windows, game set to 7.1:

Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to 7.1 speakers, where upwards/downwards and front/back information is largely lost -> 7.1 sound sent to Windows Audio Service -> Downmix to 2.0, where front/back separation is completely lost -> 2.0 signal sent to soundcard -> adding some reverb -> Stereo Output on Headphones
No upwards/downwards separation.
No front/back separation.

G) Dolby Atmos speaker setup with Atmos-source:
Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to whatever your speaker setup is -> 2.0/5.2/7.2./9.2 or whatever your speaker setup sent to speakers.
To some degree this may even work with the TVs built-in speakers as they are using reflections from the walls and ceiling of your room.

H) Dolby Atmos for Headphones with Atmos-source:
Sound source in 3D space -> HRTF-processing to Stereo output.

Your are doing F) which is obviously crap.

 

[CooloutAC]

@CooloutAC's trolling fun.

Most games today use a proprietary sound engine.Sound sources are always objects in a three dimensional space. However, they are mixed to 7.1 channels where any top/down information is largely lost. Which game uses what is detailed here: http://satsun.org/audio/

So it works like this. (Whenever a game does not offer the option to select speaker setup it is using what is currently presented in Windows sound settings):

A) Normal 7.1 Home Cinema Setup, speakers set to 7.1 in Windows, game set to 7.1:

Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to 7.1 speakers, where upwards/downwards information is largely lost -> 7.1 Channel game sound -> 7.1 channels sent to speaker setup.
No upwards/downwards separation.

B) Home Cinema Setup or Headphones, speakers set to 2.0 in Windows, game set to 2.0

Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to 2.0 speakers, where upwards/downwards and front/back information is largely lost -> 2.0 sound sent to speaker setup -> upfill of the 2.0 signal by the receiver.
No upwards/downwards separation.
No front/back separation.

C) Home Cinema Setup, speakers set to 2.0 in Windows, game set to 7.1:

Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to 7.1 speakers, where upwards/downwards and front/back information is largely lost -> 7.1 sound sent to Windows Audio Service -> Downmix to 2.0, where front/back separation is completely lost -> 2.0 signal sent to receiver -> upfill of the 2.0 signal by the receiver.
No upwards/downwards separation.
No front/back separation.

D) Stereo Headset on soundcard with HRTF-based surround simulation, speakers set to 7.1 in Windows, game set to 7.1:

Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to 7.1 speakers, where upwards/downwards information is largely lost -> 7.1 channels sent to soundcard -> HRTF-processing to Stereo output on Headphones.
No upwards/downwards separation.

E) Stereo Headset on soundcard with HRTF-based surround simulation, speakers set to 2.0 in Windows, game set to 2.0:

Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to 2.0 speakers, where upwards/downwards and front/back information is largely lost -> 2.0 sound sent to soundcard ->
> adding some reverb -> Stereo Output on Headphones
No upwards/downwards separation.
No front/back separation.

F) Stereo Headset on soundcard with HRTF-based surround simulation, speakers set to 2.0 in Windows, game set to 7.1:

Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to 7.1 speakers, where upwards/downwards and front/back information is largely lost -> 7.1 sound sent to Windows Audio Service -> Downmix to 2.0, where front/back separation is completely lost -> 2.0 signal sent to soundcard -> adding some reverb -> Stereo Output on Headphones
No upwards/downwards separation.
No front/back separation.

G) Dolby Atmos speaker setup with Atmos-source:
Sound source in 3D space -> Soundengine Processing to whatever your speaker setup is -> 2.0/5.2/7.2./9.2 or whatever your speaker setup sent to speakers.
To some degree this may even work with the TVs built-in speakers as they are using reflections from the walls and ceiling of your room.

H) Dolby Atmos for Headphones with Atmos-source:
Sound source in 3D space -> HRTF-processing to Stereo output.

Your are doing F) which is obviously ****e.

Whether its A-F All that matters is how the positional sounds sound in your ears. You only have two of them using two speakers, so everything is virtualized. Its all virtualization. AND IT DEPENDS ON THE GAME AND YOUR HEADPHONES. nothing else really matters is what this experience taught me.

The diff technical specs don't matter. For example, the sennheiser gsx sounds like muddy garbled crap. Which is the #1 complaint of most 3rd party solutions. The sennheiser is no diff in this regard. Getting rid of it you hear the sounds you would be missing otherwise due to its lack of clarity. and it Doesn't matter if its mixing 7.1 channels to stereo, that doesn't automatically make it better then anything else. Because again its only going to TWO headphone speakers, so its still just virtualization. Whether you are using A-F, it still depends on how good the positional audio is done by the game devs. Even diff games using the same sound engines will differ.

most pro gamers still prefer to use stereo in game settings, because they feel surorund settings make positional audio worst in most cases.

lmao....and in what game do you hear up and down sounds? I've never experienced that in a game. I'm curious what games you are playing? I gave my theory as to why they never have up and down sounds in games. or apprently not done very well... I guess except in your universe... I think you are one of the those guys too caught up on what they read on paper, and marketing schemes, rather then whats really going on in your own ears. You probably don't even game much.

that said, I'd have to give EAAudiocore 1st place.

Windows can't make positional sounds that don't already exist in the game buddy. Thats why dolby atmos, unless directly supported and designed for by the game devs, I'm only assuming, is also worthless. And if my sound drivers support 3d audio and 3d audio is designed in the games already why would I need the lower quality overpriced gsx?

Troll harder.