[CooloutAC]

My great grand pappy used to always rave about the amazing 3D audio he had when he was hoop trundling in Brooklyn in 1878! Kids these days just don't understand object based audio, he always said.

hahahah IF we talking computers, more like 1988.

 

[Glasofruix]

You think you are hearing top and bottom sounds in that video? I don't. And I figure its harder to do in games with so many sounds going on. Easier for astronauts doing it simply for communication purposes with only voice sounds.

And Those graphs contradict your own definition of 3d audio. which is top and bottom sounds. They are not showing it.

You are showing me the normal definition for surround sounds, for a speaker system and headphones, but not what you just defined as 3d audio in previous posts. What you are showing me right now has been in fps gaming for over 20 years and what the industry defines as 3d audio. Those graphs prove my point. You even admit games had it 10 years ago.

Again what you hear in your ears does not seem to matter to you. You'd rather confuse yourself over the technical specs, but you are not a real developer. When you contradict yourself you lose credibility. You seem to only be trolling me.

Dolby atmos sucks, half the people who use it in overwatch say so. Immersion vs positional audio are also two diff things. 3rd party solutions become an acquired taste. I still say it all depends on the game developers and how they designed sounds, no matter what 3rd party solution you are using, as to whether the positional audio is good or not. For the 100th time!

you don't need a 3rd party solution for good positional audio, just headphones with good soundstage.

Where the effin' eff' do i contradict myself? Can't you freakin' read? I can't explain the difference between 3D audio and simple surround any clearer than that. The graphs show exactly how modern games work, meaning they don't have 3D audio in the first place. The vid shows how real 3D audio sounds and we've already established that you're partially deaf, so you can't hear HRTF anyway, on top of being (deliberately i hope) really obtuse. And for the umptieth time THERE IS NO POSITIONNAL AUDIO WITH JUST PLAIN STEREO, none, that's what the pictures show. Don't tell me you're also blind in one eye or something.

 

[CooloutAC]

Where the effin' eff' do i contradict myself? Can't you freakin' read? I can't explain the difference between 3D audio and simple surround any clearer than that. The graphs show exactly how modern games work, meaning they don't have 3D audio in the first place. The vid shows how real 3D audio sounds and we've already established that you're partially deaf, so you can't hear HRTF anyway, on top of being (deliberately i hope) really obtuse. And for the umptieth time THERE IS NO POSITIONNAL AUDIO WITH JUST PLAIN STEREO, none, that's what the pictures show. Don't tell me you're also blind in one eye or something.

Don't know if you are trolling me right now, or just that confused.

How many times did I say the difference is top and bottom sounds? That is, according to people who define there being a difference. I think surround sounds are still "3d sound" if not using the full space they are using most of it. Especially with headphones. Do you even read my posts or just look for my name?

Your graphs should be in 3d, according to the definitio you and that VR article have on "3d sound" lmao..... I think you are the one who needs more reading comprehension.

Your two graphs could both be 3d sound, and are both the same thing, besides your line drawn down the middle of one. And this is because it doesn't matter. You showed me the difference between headphones and full speaker set, not 3d vs surround.... and you don't even realize you proved my point... /sigh

Its not your fault, I'm learning more and more everyday most "experts" and articles and reviews online regarding these subjects, are full of dog coals. I don't claim to be an expert, but common sense is common sense and lies is lies. That's why I always have a hard time knowing who is trolling me or not.


Full home entertainment speaker sets, can also reproduce top and bottom sounds. I gave you the example of my LG tv, with all the speakers behind screen, can even make me think sounds are behind me. Using headphones is no different.

When it comes to the "TRUE" definition of 3d sound, even using a full 5.1/7/1 speaker set, IS Virtual. (unless we start hanging speakers above us in the ceiling and under us in the floor)

The same effects to trick our minds can be created with any speaker setup. It doesn't matter for "Positional Audio" as long as speakers have good soundstage or acoustics, and the game developers design the effects> And 3d sound is in every game by default.

 

[Glasofruix]

Don't know if you are trolling me right now, or just that confused.

How many times did I say the difference is top and bottom sounds? That is, according to people who define there being a difference. I think surround sounds are still "3d sound" if not using the full space they are using most of it. Do you even read my posts or just look for my name?

Your graphs should be in 3d, according to the definitio you and that VR article have on "3d sound" lmao..... I think you are the one who needs more reading comprehension.

Your two graphs could both be 3d sound, and are both the same thing, besides your line drawn down the middle of one. And this is because it doesn't matter. You showed me the difference between headphones and full speaker set, not 3d vs surround.... and you don't even realize you proved my point... /sigh

Look, the "graphs" do NOT show 3d audio, they show surround as used in today's games and how it is downmixed, to illustrate my point about games NOT having "native" hrtf and/or 3D audio when you put your headphones on. I've been quite clear about that in the original post. The youtube video demonstrates how 3D audio sounds. And no, 3D audio does not mean just elevation, it means having more than 8 points in space where the sound can originate from. You not understanding the facts does not prove your "point", whatever that might be.

 

[CooloutAC]

If interested in the 3d tech in the LG tv. Its designed by Harmon/Kardon. Thats all I know about it. All I know is its described as immersive, and it sure is in a room with proper acoustics. Its 2 channels with surround effects, just like headphones, but directly in front of me.

 

[CooloutAC]

Look, the "graphs" do NOT show 3d audio, they show surround as used in today's games and how it is downmixed, to illustrate my point about games NOT having "native" hrtf and/or 3D audio when you put your headphones on. I've been quite clear about that in the original post. And no, 3D audio does not mean just elevation, it means having more than 8 points in space where the sound can originate from. You not understanding the facts does not prove your "point", whatever that might be.

Ya I just said they didn't show 3d sound, according to your definition. So why even post that? to look smart? We already know this! haha Now I know for sure you don't even read my posts.

But your definition is different then mine and most people buddy. Isn't 7.1 channels, 8 speakers? if a game developers design positional audio for 8 speaker channels where is the difference? 3d audio is in the effects.

Do you think 3d sound is only for headphones? You would be wrong like most so called "experts".

If you think there is a difference between 3d sound and surround... Its top and bottom sounds. Period. It has nothing do with your arbitrary number. Its to try to mimic how we hear in real life.

Guess we are at an impass. Nothing to discuss anymore. This is a failed industry for a reason. The fact we are even having this conversation after 100s of years is crazy.


Here is all I can find on the LG Harmon/Kardon tech. http://www.lgnewsroom.com/2014/04/l...extraordinary-sound-to-oled-and-ultra-hd-tvs/ They calling it ultra surround. "ULTRA Surround technology adds a three-dimensional quality to audio that is nothing short of spell binding. "

I leave the ultra surround option on. You instantly feel the surround effect. And i have a room with great acoustics which helps.

Although, we now know there are two definitions of 3d sound. I definitely don't hear top and bottom sounds off the tv lol, even though they are calling it 3 dimensional. It still is because sounds like they are coming from more then 2 directions. I don't know where you got your magic number of 8 from.

You know , not everything is public knowledge man. You can never trust a nosey person lol. Business is competitive. There is no defining tech and They just don't hand out whitesheets or give out true names of their tech. And just because you don't see some sort of HRTF option in the game, doesn't mean it doesn't have 3d sound and doesn't mean it doesn't have surround effects.

 

[mindbomb]

This is not so complicated. I think a game will likely have a 3d audio system internally, but use pcm audio outputs. It's possible in the future, games will start using dolby atmos or windows sonic for 3d audio output more. However, regardless of whether the game outputs an object based format or surround sound pcm, you still need an hrtf downmix to have good sound localization on headphones. That doesn't change.

 

[Glasofruix]

Ya I just said they didn't show 3d sound. So why even post that? to look smart? haha Now I know for sure you don't even read my posts.

That's because they don't and made to illustrate, again, how modern games downmix surround to stereo, i suggest you stop being stupid and think a little.

Well your definition is different then mine and most people buddy. Isn't 7.1 channels, 8 speakers? if a game developers design positional audio for 8 speaker channels where is the difference? 3d audio is in the effects.

No "my definition" is correct, yours is a mish mash of misunderstanding and deliberate dumbassery. Yes it is 8 speakers, meaning 8 FIXED points in space where the sound can come from virtually AND physically, they cannot move around. And that, precisely, where the difference is. Having a sound coming from the left back speaker or from and exact position behind you is a big difference.

Do you think 3d sound is only for headphones? You would be wrong like most so called "experts".

You cannot achieve 3D sound with speakers, try listening to binaural recordings (let's say the virtual barber) with a pair of speakers, will not work.

If you think there is a difference between 3d sound and surround... Its top and bottom sounds. Period. It has nothing do with your arbitrary number. Its to try and mimic what we hear in real life.

There is no "arbitrary number", again, having sound come from infinite sources in 3D space is different from having just 8 points in a circle around you.

This is a failed industry for a reason.

Citation needed. The reason we don't have 3d audio today is creative's and microsoft's fault. I'm old enough to remember the sound processing during the EAX days was VERY expensive CPU wise, now that we have enough processing power it's making a return.

Here is all I can find on the LG Harmon/Kardon tech. http://www.lgnewsroom.com/2014/04/l...extraordinary-sound-to-oled-and-ultra-hd-tvs/ They calling it ultra surround. "ULTRA Surround technology adds a three-dimensional quality to audio that is nothing short of spell binding. "

Although, we now know there are two definitions of 3d sound. I definitely don't hear top and bottom sounds off the tv lol, even though they are calling it 3 dimensional. It still is because sounds like they are coming from more then 2 directions. I don't know where you got your magic number of 8 from.

And what does LG have to do in this discussion? Bouncing sounds off walls is not a new idea, it uses the room's accoustics to achieve a surround effect. It requires a careful placement and doesn't really work in non square rooms. In fact dolby atmos (not talking about headphones here) uses just that for elevation by adding speakers that are oriented towards the ceiling.

You know , not everything is public knowledge man. You can never trust a nosey person lol. They just don't hand out whitesheets or give out true names of their tech. And just because you don't see some sort of HRTF option in the game, doesn't mean it doesn't have 3d sound.

That is precisely why it doesn't have 3D sound. I've already explained how downmixing works, with pictures et all.

 

[CooloutAC]

This is not so complicated. I think a game will likely have a 3d audio system internally, but use pcm audio outputs. It's possible in the future, games will start using dolby atmos or windows sonic for 3d audio output more. However, regardless of whether the game outputs an object based format surround sound pcm, you still need an hrtf downmix to have good sound localization on headphones. That doesn't change.

Yes but HRTF is just one label. Dolby atmos isn't doing anything new or special either. My point is there is no defining tech.

I said 3d audio has two definitions. I was wrong . It has 3! lol coincidence eh?


1. It could mean sounds coming from more then two directions. (so left right front could be considered 3d sound, but not surround)

2. It could mean Sounds with a surround effect meaning left right front back directions when using less speaker channels. (such as headphones or 2ch speakers)

3. Or it could mean adding up and down sounds to the surround directions. Which is what apparently what some consider "TRUE" 3d sound...

 

[Glasofruix]

HRTF is PRECISELY the technique that allows us to have directionnal audio with plain headphones. I suggest you visit the wikipedia page. How different manufacturers implement it is up to them.

 

[x7007]

guys, instead of talking about 3d all this time, maybe better you try to find a fix for the surround reset?

 

[Glasofruix]

Nothing we can really do about that.

 

[pietcux]

The one with no issue with the GSX STEREO reset, can you post picture of your AUDIO Startup Event Trace?


if you can post all the tabs in there

you enter using

compmgmt.msc
and then Performance > Data Collector Sets > Startup Event Trace Session > Double Click AUDIO

Here you go, but it is in German language:

 

[pietcux]

Jesus H Christ, if you could be any denser we would have been swallowed by a blackhole already...

Look (listen), this is 3D = Positionnal = Spatial Audio:



This is exactly what, maybe 5 games do today and what most games did 10 years ago (if you had the proper hardware). It's object based audio, meaning that the position of every sound is reported as accurately as possible then mixed via HRTF algorithms to stereo directly by the game's audio engine, elevation included.

Most other games, however, use channel based = surround audio. Meaning this:

A 2D circle around the player's character with sounds distributed between the discrete channels, notice the lack of elevation. For example a sound coming from a 110° angle is somewhere between the left surround speaker and left back speaker, by playing the LS speaker slightly louder than the LB speaker you get a better sense of direction. This is when you're using a physical 7.1 setup (which does not include elevation, but if you have a fancy atmos setup you can enable it in BF1). If you only have a pair of speakers or headphones, again, 99% of modern games operate a simple downmix like such:

Whatever's on the left of the red line goes to the left channel, everything else goes to the right, the center is played on both sides at the same time. I am not pulling this out of my bottom it's how it works.

Now what the GSX and other VSS do (and what atmos for headphones and windows sonic don't, but are supposed to), they present themselves as physical 7.1 interfaces to fool the games into outputting surround. Then the 8 (or less) discrete channels are mixed into stereo using HRTF algorithms, but this time by recreating a virtual room with virtual speakers in it to mimic a physical setup (because there is no other information available). It's far from perfect, but until every game integrates real 3D audio it's better than nothing.

Note that the exact same virtual room is applied to a stereo signal when VSS is enabled, but you only get the two front speakers and the center, plus some crossfeed (meaning you hear a bit of the left channel in your right ear, and vice versa) and reverb, but in no fricking' way it can pull the rest of the channels from a simple stereo signal. Some games with "enhanced stereo" (like BF1) also use crossfeed, but no HRTF.

As for why the pros use only stereo could be explained by the fact that some VSS solutions are pure garbage and by the fact that generic HRTF doesn't work on everyone. Plus because once they're used to something, they don't want to change, like old people.

The video is nice. Once the output is set to stereo, I can hear sound from above and below, when direct in fron to the soud source and the camera islooking up or down.

 

[mindbomb]

Yes but HRTF is just one label. Dolby atmos isn't doing anything new or special either. My point is there is no defining tech.

I said 3d audio has two definitions. I was wrong . It has 3! lol coincidence eh?

3d audio is a superset of 7.1 audio where you can have things like up and down (so all 3 dimensions are represented). An example is dolby atmos. Now if you want to listen to either format on headphones and have good sound localization, you're gonna need an hrtf downmix. An example is dolby atmos for headphones. The two things are similarly named, but they are distinct.

In this thread, people are using the sennheiser gsx as an hrtf for 7.1 audio. If the game has 3d audio, it can scale down to 7.1 or you would have to get a new hrtf if you wanted the height channels.