Sennheiser GSX 1000 / 1200 Impressions

Discussion in 'Dedicated Source Components' started by shankly1985, Nov 5, 2016.
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  1. Glasofruix
    Because stereo is stereo? Left and right, that's it. There's absolutely nothing in there for vss to work with. How would it know that a sound is behind you when it's physically just on the left or right? It's like asking someone who has never seen a Monet painting to recreate one using only a black and white picture of it, the best he can do is guess the colors. The result may be pleasing to the eye but far away from reality.

    The way vss works is by tricking our brain using HRTF algorithms that (try to) simulate the way our ears work by changing the way different sounds behave. It can be accomplished directly within a game's sound engine (and there are very few games doing that, origins and wildlands are not part of the list) or with a third party vss solution (like dolby atmos, windows sonic, gsx, sbx, bxae etc...) which would take a 7.1 signal, with 8 separate channels, create a virtual room with 8 virtual speakers, and then mix everything into a modified stereo output. With just plain stereo the room is still there, that's the sense of "holographic soundfield" you're getting, but you only have 2 sources. It's no different from just sitting in front of your computer with a pair of speakers.
  2. x7007
    The only thing I can think about the GSX 1000 Stereo reset bug is maybe it's Windows Service. did any of you reinstalled windows and had the bug ? I remember not. Did anyone of you who don't have the bug disabled any Windows Services ? if so which ones ?
  3. CooloutAC
    Even if the game is not specifying it as an option, there is still technology in there to do the same thing. This has been going on for 20 years in fps games. Just like games like fallout 4 don't actually have a surround option, it does have surround channels mapped in there and just uses default windows settings. And i'm sure they designed their stereo effects to help positional cues as well.

    Of course bf1 is the best to date. I haven't tried battlefront 2 yet im sure the sound is great.

    And whether its virtual 7.1 or stereo hrtf, or some other unknown tech, its all illusions in two cups on two ears that the game developers themselves intend and design, and what your ears perceive is all that matters. Not the technical specs on paper, or which company has the most money for big marketing scams.

    On another topic, I have an LG tv that creates a surround illusion too. You think sounds are coming from behind you but there is no speakers there. But there are surround speakers on the tv and I guess whatever makes the rear speaker sounds creates that effect.

    Apparenlty 3d sound was developed in the 1800s, and first used in a computer in 1988 for nasa astronauts.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
    pietcux likes this.
  4. Glasofruix
    What technology are we talking about? The stereo downmixing? Because it just places whatever's on the left to the left and whatever's on the right to the right, that's it. What devs themselves intend to design is a channel based audio with 5.1 or 7.1 which is then downmixed to 2.0 as an afterthoutght. The only game i know of that pays particular attention to actual stereo is Hellblade.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  5. raband
    2.0 is 2.0

    L/R is L/R

    Coolout has fun with that and some effects added to it that make imaging in games more precise

    Coolout has some fun with some VSS effects that can make some games feel more immersive for him

    Coolout has a hearing imbalance that prevents him from being able to experience any form of VSS as it is intended/designed through headphones

    Coolout keeps popping up and stating "facts"

    In space, no one can hear you facepalm
  6. CooloutAC
    depends on the game. We obviously don't know the names for all of them. You apparenlty don't even care what something sounds like to your ears, and you don't believe something exists unless there is an option to toggle it in the game menu or you have the white sheet for it.

    3d sound has been in fps games for over 20 years. And the tech has been around since the 1800s. You go do your own research if you want to know what game engines and audio tech is in the games,

    The first unreal game supported OpenAL or galaxy hardware for 3d sound. You'd have to research each game. What is the tech called in bf1, do you know? Guess you don't think it exists then...
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  7. CooloutAC
    They used the "3d space" to tell who was communicating by positional audio.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  8. Glasofruix
    I would need a source for that last statement. And i do know what audio tech is in games. There aren't that many sound engines to begin with and NONE of them have buit-in HRTF for stereo. When a dev decides to implement such a thing it's ALWAYS indicated somewhere.

    While yes, we had a nifty 3D sound around 15 years ago with EAX and CMSS-3D it was pretty much killed when vista arrived. I've posted a nice vid that explains how modern games' sound engines work, watch it.

    here's the link:

    And here's an article that explains how HRTF works:
    (sadly there are no more news about the return of true 3D audio)

    reddit thread that basically confirms my point:

    I also suggest to take a look at this thread
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  9. CooloutAC
    yes EAX, also A3D was another one. Direct3d, etc..... Notice in your link they call it 3d audio in another they call it spatial sound. You seem to be stuck on labels and the industry is confused in itself so its understandable the confusion.. LIke with Sinery I guess we have differing definitions? IS 3d sound not spatial sound to you (your fist article), is it digital vs analog? Is it simply to add top and bottom sounds to "surround" channels? (your second vr article) To me 3d sound = spatial sound = surround sound = positional audio.

    In the end I'm talking about "positional audio" in games, and its been around forever. It depends on the game and your headphones, nothing else really matters.

    I dunno what last statement you are referring to. But your last statement about "true 3d audio" leads me to believe you think it means top and bottom sounds only. I've never heard that done effectively and might even hurt positional audio, maybe thats why they are saying it might come back. Come back from NASA? cause I don't think that type of 3d sound was ever here to come back from in gaming, nor do I think it is a good idea for most fps games. So in your definition 3d sound is something entirely different then surround sound. Its also different then what the gaming industry has been calling "3d" all these years.

    But To me they are the same, for intended practical purposes of gaming, if not fully in the whole 3d space, you are still using it, period.

    And yes windows killed direct3d, they also killed the realtek speaker fill i liked so much for music all these years. I think windows only wants to allow tech they get a cut of now like dolby atmos.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  10. Glasofruix
    I doubt very much there were video games in the 1800's, but yes, 3d audio = spatial sound = positionnal audio but not surround sound (this is just 7.1 at best). And very few games implement positionnal audio natively (with the possibility of hearing it with headphones), they do have surround sound however, if you have a physical surround setup or you are using vss. Check the last pages of nameless' guide to pc gaming audio, you'll get all the answers.

    I also invite you to read this:

    BrightCandle seems to be of the same opinion.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  11. CooloutAC

    Almost all games do. Thats why most gamer pros will tell you to jut use stereo, its even better in some cases for positional audio then turning on vss. And its why 3d audio in games does not have top and bottom sounds. Its probably difficult to to efficiently implement. might muddy up the left and right positional audio. You just mentioned cmss-3d you use to use. while that is part of 3rd party hardware, it still basically boils down to how the game is doing surround to how good its gonna sound.

    and the experience most people had with cms3d back then, should be no diff then what people experience with the sennheiser, regarding how good or effective it is for them, depends on game.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  12. x7007
    The one with no issue with the GSX STEREO reset, can you post picture of your AUDIO Startup Event Trace?

    if you can post all the tabs in there

    you enter using

    and then Performance > Data Collector Sets > Startup Event Trace Session > Double Click AUDIO
  13. Glasofruix
    Jesus H Christ, if you could be any denser we would have been swallowed by a blackhole already...

    Look (listen), this is 3D = Positionnal = Spatial Audio:

    This is exactly what, maybe 5 games do today and what most games did 10 years ago (if you had the proper hardware). It's object based audio, meaning that the position of every sound is reported as accurately as possible then mixed via HRTF algorithms to stereo directly by the game's audio engine, elevation included.

    Most other games, however, use channel based = surround audio. Meaning this:


    A 2D circle around the player's character with sounds distributed between the discrete channels, notice the lack of elevation. For example a sound coming from a 110° angle is somewhere between the left surround speaker and left back speaker, by playing the LS speaker slightly louder than the LB speaker you get a better sense of direction. This is when you're using a physical 7.1 setup (which does not include elevation, but if you have a fancy atmos setup you can enable it in BF1). If you only have a pair of speakers or headphones, again, 99% of modern games operate a simple downmix like such:


    Whatever's on the left of the red line goes to the left channel, everything else goes to the right, the center is played on both sides at the same time. I am not pulling this out of my bottom it's how it works.

    Now what the GSX and other VSS do (and what atmos for headphones and windows sonic don't, but are supposed to), they present themselves as physical 7.1 interfaces to fool the games into outputting surround. Then the 8 (or less) discrete channels are mixed into stereo using HRTF algorithms, but this time by recreating a virtual room with virtual speakers in it to mimic a physical setup (because there is no other information available). It's far from perfect, but until every game integrates real 3D audio it's better than nothing.

    Note that the exact same virtual room is applied to a stereo signal when VSS is enabled, but you only get the two front speakers and the center, plus some crossfeed (meaning you hear a bit of the left channel in your right ear, and vice versa) and reverb, but in no fricking' way it can pull the rest of the channels from a simple stereo signal. Some games with "enhanced stereo" (like BF1) also use crossfeed, but no HRTF.

    As for why the pros use only stereo could be explained by the fact that some VSS solutions are pure garbage and by the fact that generic HRTF doesn't work on everyone. Plus because once they're used to something, they don't want to change, like old people.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  14. illram
    My great grand pappy used to always rave about the amazing 3D audio he had when he was hoop trundling in Brooklyn in 1878! Kids these days just don't understand object based audio, he always said.
  15. CooloutAC
    You think you are hearing top and bottom sounds in that video? I don't. And I figure its harder to do in games with so many sounds going on. Easier for astronauts doing it simply for communication purposes with only voice sounds.

    And Those graphs contradict your own definition of 3d audio. which is top and bottom sounds. They are not showing it.

    You are showing me the normal definition for surround sounds, for a speaker system and headphones, but not what you just defined as 3d audio in previous posts. What you are showing me right now has been in fps gaming for over 20 years and what the industry defines as 3d audio. Those graphs prove my point. You even admit games had it 10 years ago.

    Again what you hear in your ears does not seem to matter to you. You'd rather confuse yourself over the technical specs, but you are not a real developer. When you contradict yourself you lose credibility. You seem to only be trolling me.

    Dolby atmos sucks, half the people who use it in overwatch say so. Immersion vs positional audio are also two diff things. 3rd party solutions become an acquired taste. I still say it all depends on the game developers and how they designed sounds, no matter what 3rd party solution you are using, as to whether the positional audio is good or not. For the 100th time!

    you don't need a 3rd party solution for good positional audio, just headphones with good soundstage.
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
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