[johnjen]

@earnmyturns Are you one of those folks who hears a difference when an ordinary fuse is reversed?

Some folks look for answers, others look for fights. I am the former, you are the latter.

It occurs to me that you are looking for justification and want others to provide it for you.
This is another lose, lose, lose scenario in my book.

Why?
Because as I stated earlier, in the end audio gear is not about numbers or tests or proofs,
it's about music, and if the changes made to YOUR system are an improvement,
or not,
FOR YOU.

No one can prove anything TO you, that is your job.
At best, we can offer our evidence, our experience, our understanding, what you make of that is up to you.

And if you can't hear any difference in your system between a well 'settled in' Jggy and a 'cold' one, then while you do have a SotA dac, the rest of the system is occluding it's magic.
IOW a single piece of SotA gear does not in and of itself mean you can or even will be able to hear all that it can convey.
And sometimes the rest of the system will simply not be able to pass along the real magic, at SotA levels of SQ.

And relying upon blind testing as the final arbiter of 'goodness', is ignoring precisely what the JggyB brings to the party.
Blind testing is horrible at discerning subtle SQ nuances that usually only reveal themselves with long term listening.
Mike Moffet covered this in a post a long time back, I'd suggest you read his thoughts on this topic.

And these subtle SQ nuances and cues are noticed AFTER you are able to discern them in the 1st place, which means you need to LEARN what to listen for, where to listen for it (which circumstances do you hear them in), and that requires what I call 'Calibration' where the best you have ever heard is your benchmark, your 100% high water mark of SQ.
Our personal degree of Calibration will rise at the pace that we hear 'better', and so our current 100% SQ mark, gets bumped up to even greater heights of SQ as we experience 'better'.

As for the reversing the fuse argument, some will and some won't hear these differences all based upon a variety of factors inherent to them (Calibration), and their gear and setup,
no 2 of which are the same.

And lastly, looking for answers means we should be open to hearing them, in whatever form they present themselves to us, then test/evaluate/experience them for ourselves and THEN decide.
And just because someone else's answer turns out to not be your answer, doesn't mean their answer is wrong, but simply not YOUR answer.

It seems to me that you are in your early to mid years in this hobby and are still 'finding your way' so to speak.
And asking questions is a good thing, as long as you hear the answers and don't insist that it must coincide with all of your old perceptions.
Because that is what pushing our previous mark of what 100% SQ to new heights is all about, namely expanding our perceptions of not only what has been experienced, but what is possible as well.

I hope this provides additional insights.

JJ

 

[adydula]

I just looked at the 50 ohm metal film resistor graph...and it looks like it changed indeed but it was only about .0203 ohms or so....and the chart seems to indicate it settled out after about a minute if I am reading the time scale correctly.

Thats not much change to me??

Depending on what the component is, where its in a circuit matters much as well....

To me I let my stuff warm up for 10-15 minutes and listen....never heard any real difference in letting the suff warm up for hours and hours....

Can you really hear a change of .0203 (eyeball guess) ohms in a circuit?? Not to me...

Heck when I do DIY I buy parts, and try to get the best or most accurate parts with the least "johnson" noise etc....and take parts out and try to select the closest values to
what the circuit calls out for....many of the parts we get are farther apart than .0203 ohms!!

I would be more concerned in setting the grid bias in an amp to avoid clipping etc....and even this has a wide margin of error...

Thats why building with discrete parts is such a pain if your striving for perfection.

I think Mike M. posted recently why he choose integrated R2R silicon vs discrete stuff...

Just turned on my stuff, 10 min..time to listen!!

:>)
Alex

Note just saw the delta measurement 12.54 mohms!!

 

[atomicbob]

I just looked at the 50 ohm metal film resistor graph...and it looks like it changed indeed but it was only about .0203 ohms or so....and the chart seems to indicate it settled out after about a minute if I am reading the time scale correctly.

Thats not much change to me??

Depending on what the component is, where its in a circuit matters much as well....

To me I let my stuff warm up for 10-15 minutes and listen....never heard any real difference in letting the suff warm up for hours and hours....

Can you really hear a change of .0203 (eyeball guess) ohms in a circuit?? Not to me...

Heck when I do DIY I buy parts, and try to get the best or most accurate parts with the least "johnson" noise etc....and take parts out and try to select the closest values to
what the circuit calls out for....many of the parts we get are farther apart than .0203 ohms!!

I would be more concerned in setting the grid bias in an amp to avoid clipping etc....and even this has a wide margin of error...

Thats why building with discrete parts is such a pain if your striving for perfection.

I think Mike M. posted recently why he choose integrated R2R silicon vs discrete stuff...

Just turned on my stuff, 10 min..time to listen!!

:>)
Alex

Note just saw the delta measurement 12.54 mohms!!

Hi Alex, a couple of clarifications.
1. The time scale is 12 minutes per grid line on the x axis. Marker 2 is at 57 minutes 35.531 seconds.
2. 0.0125 ohms is -72 dB from 50 ohms. Changes occurring only 72 dB below max. If we want reliable resolution to say, -120 dB then our resistors had better settle down to changes less than 0.000050 ohms or track very closely to one another, which is what monolithic circuits offer.

 

[adydula]

Thanks for that Bob...guess those 1/4 watt 5% carbons wont cut it!!

:>)
Alex

 

[LouS]

One other point which I would like to add. Many of us learned from others we respect that a component is a component is a component. Deviation from that position does not therefore come easily, at least it didn't come easily to me. Sometimes we learn despite our preexisting prejudices by accident, we replace a component with one that had the same specifications yet the channels now sound differently, or we hear that this or that makes a difference from enough people that we decide to try it even though we are skeptical.

Recently I have come to understand that source power noise matters. For decades an isolation transformer made zero sense to me, after all, all older power supplies had step down transformers, that should isolate noise I figured. Switching power supplies, which are generally quite noisy themselves do not use transformers, hence I did speak of older supplies. Anyway, while not believing that it would work, but out of a desperate hope it would work, I bought an isolation transformer. It did work, so now I am more likely to believe arguments dealing with incoming voltage noise being an issue. As for fuse directionality, again, color me at least skeptical. I can easily believe that pulling and reinstalling a fuse could make it conduct better, but I can't say that a minuscule amount of increase in conductivity would improve sound. OTOH, when ZPS Audio used gold plated fuses in the audio path in their 200C and 200CX amps, that makes a little more sense to me, though I suspect a little deox may have been sufficient. Anyway, color me skeptical about fuse orientation, but as I have been wrong so many times about so many things, I am hesitant to clean it untrue. OTOH, I am too skeptical to try it myself as I strongly suspect that it would be a complete waste of my time.

 

[kingkikapu]

Atomic Bob: thank your for your input. You do good work.

Respectfully,

A scientist.

 

[the finisher]

cognitive dissonance!

 

[johnjen]

I don't think anyone would dispute that at a "micro level", the electronics are undergoing some kind of change (given temperature and age from one second to the next, etc.) In fact, we can throw in the phase of the moon for good measure, to account for any gravimetric anomalies that might occur as it moves to/from the earth and also have an effect. But are these things truly audible to the naked (head phones okay) human ear? I say no. By truly, this means it can be reliably detected in a proper blind test.

This is certainly one "school of thought", which I've heard, read and understand. Truth is, the "optimum" scenario for sound quality may not be the same optimum scenario where the health of the electronic components are concerned. In all likelihood, leaving on continuously or turning on/off each has a positive and negative effect. But are these things truly audible to the naked (head phones okay) human ear? I say no. By truly, this means it can be reliably detected in a proper blind test.

"But are these things truly audible to the naked (head phones okay) human ear? I say no. By truly, this means it can be reliably detected in a proper blind test."
Um, I'm not sure you understand what you wrote here.
If these differences aren't audible to the naked ear then they by definition would not be apparent in a blind test either.
And this opinion that they aren't audible applies to you and those who agree with you.

As for the changing nature of individual components during a 'settling in' period.
Wrap your head around the fact that ALL of the components are doing this, all at the same time, all the while there are large (relatively speaking) thermal shifts and changes going on simultaneously.
AND in a new piece of gear, ALL of the components are being used for the 1st time since being manufactured from raw materials in their new permanent home with voltages and currents and heat 'base lines' being established as the 'norm' for them now.
The interactive effect of ALL of this shifting and changing IS audible, we call it burn in, break in, settling in, reaching thermal equilibrium etc.
That’s why

And as for 'optimal' conditions for the 'health' of the components, that is based upon the design itself.
Did the designer take ALL of these variables into account, and as such, if the manufacturer recommends leaving the device on, continuously (the JggyB for instance), there is usually a reason.
And of course you can chose to ignore that advice, but then likely you may not be able to hear ALL that it can bring to your system.
This has been observed and reported and demonstrated repeatedly by those who CAN hear the differences, myself included as I noted in this post
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-yggdrasil-impressions-thread.766347/page-590#post-14365815

Bottom line, you can dispute design details and the specifics of the components being used, ad-absurdum
but it STILL comes down to do you like what you hear,
or not.

JJ

 

[Currawong]

Something worth considering is, even if one cannot reliably discern a difference between two things in a blind test, it does not mean you aren't hearing them. It only means that you aren't discerning them reliably in a blind test. Heck, I can't reliably do addition or multiplication in my head. That doesn't mean I can't do addition or multiplication in my head at all, especially under stress.

 

[LouS]

Something worth considering is, even if one cannot reliably discern a difference between two things in a blind test, it does not mean you aren't hearing them. It only means that you aren't discerning them reliably in a blind test. Heck, I can't reliably do addition or multiplication in my head. That doesn't mean I can't do addition or multiplication in my head at all, especially under stress.

Good point, some can not test well due to fear, but in a setting with what they perceive to hold less pressure, they can answer questions they later will, or previously did choke on. I think JJ has it right though, it's about what brings the individual pleasure, not about what pleases others. Audio, unfortunately, is often a solitary and perhaps arguably a narcissistic pleasure. If you want to paint little leprechauns on your fuses and are convinced that the paint helps reduce vibration, resulting in better sound, knock your socks off, but expect others to believe what they will about your "discovery". A lot of real things, like system warm up though is system defendant. I hear things with my current system that my Sony AUD9 integrated amp and AR speakers couldn't reproduce even with a Yggdrasil feeding them.

 

[gdhal]

Maybe I'm wrong but who's to say what's right

World Turning
Fleetwood Mac

 

[MWSVette]

I would lean toward Jude, Atomicbob and Schiit for right (correct).

That would leave ASR and @amirm wrong...

 

[the finisher]

 

[adydula]

Blind AB testing is influenced slightly by the amount of beer I have consumed.....

Alex
:>)

 

[gdhal]

I would lean toward Jude, Atomicbob and Schiit for right (correct).

That would leave ASR and @amirm wrong...

Agreed. That said, I essentially have written the same thing, albeit used the phrase "inclined to believe". So look out. Merely leaning could be grounds for catching some degree of ridicule from the likes of earnmyturns, Ableza, adydula, LouS, jseymour, or johnjen.

Well I ain't often right but I've never been wrong.

Scarlet Begonias
Grateful Dead