[DrTone]

Should I suddenly find a song with which I get a sound stage depth remotely comparable to the Yggdrasil, I'll mention it. Don't hold your breath.

Strange considering it’s obviously a much better engineered product according to some.

 

[mcbrion]

Details are everything, so....

I have used a finite number of recordings through the Yggdrasil thus far, and the offending tracks are all Sinatra tracks, the issues have all involved horns, and the recordings were all remastered, some by EMI in England, a highly praised mastering, and the other Mobil Fidelity mastered songs, and in particular muted trumpets and other high pitched horns have been my problem. Neither source, EMI or Mobile Fidelity, have been called bright to my awareness. They are not bright using my DVP which will let you know when a CD is inherently bright. So, that's about it, I am otherwise completely blown away by the Yggdrasil, I absolutely love it, warts and all, but I would prefer that this were not an issue. It may well be that the detail I love puts the Yaggy on the ragged edge, and that the ONLY answer in an otherwise neutral system is cables... I suppose that that is a small price to pay, if in fact it turns out to be the case.

I don't know if you ever read The Absolute Sound review of the Ygdrassil by Robert Harley. He does specifically say this:

"Although the Yggy has a bold and assertive character, it was never overbearing. In fact, the Yggy encouraged high playback levels, in part because of the smoothness of its upper midrange and its lack of glare in the treble. The top end was extremely clean and well rendered; cymbals had a full measure of energy and verve, yet the sound wasn’t bright. I loved the way the Yggy revealed cymbal work by great drummers; the combination of the dynamic alacrity mentioned earlier with the treble’s pristine quality made such detail especially engaging. The upper midrange and lower treble were a little more forward than I’ve heard from other DACs, giving a bit of extra presence to vocals, for example. I also heard a bit more sibilance than I do with my reference DACs."

I didn't know how many had ever read this, so I thought it useful to display the paragraph addressing the treble of the unit.

 

[atomicbob]

@D2Girls hey now! to answer your question, for one I don't see any mention of warm up on the chip data sheet http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD5791.pdf

Right. I know there are resistors and so many other components.

Secondly, I never technically stated that electronic components do not have any burn in time (warm up, or whatever else you care to consider it). Rather, what I am saying is that the amount of time is negligible and inaudible.

The AD5791 data sheet is written for engineers. Temperature dependencies are clearly shown in figures 33 through 36:

Figure 33. Full-Scale Error vs. Temperature
Figure 34. Midscale Error vs. Temperature
Figure 35. Zero-Scale Error vs. Temperature
Figure 36. Gain Error vs. Temperature

Take Gain Error vs. Temperature for an example. Assume device is at room temperature before power is applied and room temperature is 20 °C. We know the outside surface temperature will rise by approximately 13 ~ 15 °C over a period of 3 hours as measured by FLIR which is shown in the second to last picture from post #1 here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/yggdrasil-technical-measurements.764787/

Internal temperatures will be much higher than the external surface temperature. Using a conservative 10 °C rise we can estimate a change in DAC chip temperature from 20 to 45 °C. According to the chart, gain error will change from 0.25 PPM to 0.5 PPM if we assume a ±10V span implementation (the blue line.)

For longer term differences, I refer you to the inferred jitter measurements for measurements posted for:

3 hours: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/yggdrasil-technical-measurements.764787/

408 hours: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/yggdrasil-technical-measurements.764787/page-3

Note two significant changes. Reduced jitter spurs and lower noise floor for the 408 hour measurements.

There are measurable differences both short term warmup and longer term thermal equilibration.

 

[KoshNaranek]

That said, everyone has some kind of agenda, you includedt

Yes, I have an agenda. It is truth.

"When a man lies, he murders some part of the world. These are the pale deaths which men miscall their lives.", (Paul Gerhardt, 1607-1676)

There is but one God. His name is Truth. - Mul Mantra

 

[LouS]

The world we live in forces us to be "competitive" and therefore have some kind of agenda, like it or not (which I truly wish weren't the case).

It's not the world, it's human nature...

[QUOTE="gdhal, post: 14364871, member: 484923"Not wanting to belabor things, but since things are already "heated" to some degree, I consider something else too which in my view is tangentially related to the measurements. "Burn in" and/or "warm up" time. Many folks here are proponents of these mythical (IMO) things. Not just applicable to yggy, but virtually all electronics. I highly doubt (and am willing to put some $ where my keyboard is) that anybody could tell the difference between warm/cold in a blind test. Amir and the folks on his site speak to this, and in my view it gives them additionally credibility. If you’re able to tell the difference between a new and burned-in yggy, "I'll eat a hat".[/QUOTE]

Buy a Forte F44 preamp, even one that I have modified. If you can't hear an obvious difference between a fully warmed up model and a cold one you need to find a new hobby. Carbon resistors, for one thing, can absorb water in humid atmospheres, until they dry out, through heat generated by operating temperatures, their values and performance will be degraded. I suppose that the newer carbon film resistors likely have less issues, and even newer carbon resistors may have better coatings to prevent absorption. Then you can read up on electrolytic capacitors which actually have a shelf life as the electrolytic solution etches the aluminum film when not in use. Those in operation last longer, and those in stored gear can and should be brought up to operating voltages slowly using a varic. That you don't know about such things is not surprising, I know virtually nothing about microbiology... Those who work in the field though often run across this information, and I can't imagine that electrical engineers are not taught at least some of this. We have X-Ray machines that are so old that they look like they were put together in someone's garage. They drift continuously, everyone knows that it's due to the old electrolytic capacitors but no one has the guts to allow us to replace them on the off chance that something could go wrong, so we have to battle with them continually because management is too afraid to step up and make a reasonable decision, they would rather blow off down time than take an outside chance that we might have issues trying to adjust it in with good boards, it's crazy, but it's human nature to oppose change. Anyway, those are 2 easy examples. Another would be HP counters. Tektronix used to be the o'scope gurus, and Hewlett-Packard used to be the kings of frequency counters. Their explicit instructions on the counter the military used required a several hour warmup before use or calibration of their counters. So, you believe what you will, but I'll believe what the experts have told me.

 

[LouS]

One other point, the more Thiel like your system is, the more likely that you'll be able to hear such differences, the more Vandersteen like your system the less likely that you'll be able to hear differences. GAS amplifiers are known to "warm up" sound, Spectral is far more transparent. The more critical the system, the more obvious the changes!

 

[Ableza]

Thanks for that post @atomicbob It's nice to see a scientific reason for my personal perception.

 

[gdhal]

The AD5791 data sheet is written for engineers. Temperature dependencies are clearly shown in figures 33 through 36:

Figure 33. Full-Scale Error vs. Temperature
Figure 34. Midscale Error vs. Temperature
Figure 35. Zero-Scale Error vs. Temperature
Figure 36. Gain Error vs. Temperature

Take Gain Error vs. Temperature for an example. Assume device is at room temperature before power is applied and room temperature is 20 °C. We know the outside surface temperature will rise by approximately 13 ~ 15 °C over a period of 3 hours as measured by FLIR which is shown in the second to last picture from post #1 here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/yggdrasil-technical-measurements.764787/

Internal temperatures will be much higher than the external surface temperature. Using a conservative 10 °C rise we can estimate a change in DAC chip temperature from 20 to 45 °C. According to the chart, gain error will change from 0.25 PPM to 0.5 PPM if we assume a ±10V span implementation (the blue line.)

For longer term differences, I refer you to the inferred jitter measurements for measurements posted for:

3 hours: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/yggdrasil-technical-measurements.764787/


408 hours: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/yggdrasil-technical-measurements.764787/page-3


Note two significant changes. Reduced jitter spurs and lower noise floor for the 408 hour measurements.

There are measurable differences both short term warmup and longer term thermal equilibration.

Very appreciative of your post @atomicbob . I did "like" it. I'll give you more than the benefit of the doubt and assume you are entirely correct. And you are definitely correct that figures 33 through 36 inclusive of the data sheet display a temperature chart. Question though is whether or not any temperature change is really significant and audible. I maintain that in a blind test - albeit difficult to conduct such a test in the case of cold/warm - it wouldn't be so easy to discern a difference if you could at all. Kudos to you if you can. Given the fact that the yggdrasil should only produce "better" sound as it warms, I take solace in knowing that IMO it sounds terrific from a cold start, and then only gets better while I'm listening. Also, this speaks to" warm up". Might you offer an opinion/fact regarding "break in", or are these considered one and same where the chip data sheet is concerned?

 

[gdhal]

It's not the world, it's human nature...

Buy a Forte F44 preamp, even one that I have modified. If you can't hear an obvious difference between a fully warmed up model and a cold one you need to find a new hobby. Carbon resistors, for one thing, can absorb water in humid atmospheres, until they dry out, through heat generated by operating temperatures, their values and performance will be degraded. I suppose that the newer carbon film resistors likely have less issues, and even newer carbon resistors may have better coatings to prevent absorption. Then you can read up on electrolytic capacitors which actually have a shelf life as the electrolytic solution etches the aluminum film when not in use. Those in operation last longer, and those in stored gear can and should be brought up to operating voltages slowly using a varic. That you don't know about such things is not surprising, I know virtually nothing about microbiology... Those who work in the field though often run across this information, and I can't imagine that electrical engineers are not taught at least some of this. We have X-Ray machines that are so old that they look like they were put together in someone's garage. They drift continuously, everyone knows that it's due to the old electrolytic capacitors but no one has the guts to allow us to replace them on the off chance that something could go wrong, so we have to battle with them continually because management is too afraid to step up and make a reasonable decision, they would rather blow off down time than take an outside chance that we might have issues trying to adjust it in with good boards, it's crazy, but it's human nature to oppose change. Anyway, those are 2 easy examples. Another would be HP counters. Tektronix used to be the o'scope gurus, and Hewlett-Packard used to be the kings of frequency counters. Their explicit instructions on the counter the military used required a several hour warmup before use or calibration of their counters. So, you believe what you will, but I'll believe what the experts have told me.

Hi LouS. Perhaps we can agree then that competitiveness is the nature of living things, as many animals besides humans who occupy the "world" (defined as planet earth) exhibit this characteristic.

And I do "know" about the items you mention (capacitor shelf life, etc.) Yes, I'll believe what I will. I tend to look at things pragmatically. I'm simply not convinced there is anything to be had (gained) by allowing the Yggdrasil to break in or warm up. If there truly is a difference and I simply cannot hear it, so be it.

EDIT: In fact, there may be something that is "lost" be allowing the Yggdrasil to remain powered on, as so many purportedly do. Specifically, the longevity of the unit itself. This is mere speculation on my part though.

 

[jseymour]

Hi LouS. Perhaps we can agree then that competitiveness is the nature of living things, as many animals besides humans who occupy the "world" (defined as planet earth) exhibit this characteristic.

And I do "know" about the items you mention (capacitor shelf life, etc.) Yes, I'll believe what I will. I tend to look at things pragmatically. I'm simply not convinced there is anything to be had (gained) by allowing the Yggdrasil to break in or warm up. If there truly is a difference and I simply cannot hear it, so be it.

EDIT: In fact, there may be something that is "lost" be allowing the Yggdrasil to remain powered on, as so many purportedly do. Specifically, the longevity of the unit itself. This is mere speculation on my part though.

 

[jseymour]

We all know the the meaning of the acronym of YMMV. But if you cannot hear any difference between a cold and warmed up Yggy, then I don't trust your opinion for anything. Get another hobby. You are wasting your money.

 

[atomicbob]

*edit*
We have X-Ray machines that are so old that they look like they were put together in someone's garage. They drift continuously, everyone knows that it's due to the old electrolytic capacitors but no one has the guts to allow us to replace them on the off chance that something could go wrong, so we have to battle with them continually because management is too afraid to step up and make a reasonable decision, they would rather blow off down time than take an outside chance that we might have issues trying to adjust it in with good boards, it's crazy, but it's human nature to oppose change. Anyway, those are 2 easy examples. Another would be HP counters. Tektronix used to be the o'scope gurus, and Hewlett-Packard used to be the kings of frequency counters. Their explicit instructions on the counter the military used required a several hour warmup before use or calibration of their counters. So, you believe what you will, but I'll believe what the experts have told me.

You are wise to have paid attention to those experts. Here is an example (using a Keysight / Agilent / HP 6.5 digit DMM, properly warmed up prior to observations) to observe a 50 ohm metal film resistor undergoing changes as it warms up.

It is still settling in after an hour. Now think about thousands of components which need to play nice together.

 

[LouS]

I don't know if you ever read The Absolute Sound review of the Ygdrassil by Robert Harley. He does specifically say this:

"Although the Yggy has a bold and assertive character, it was never overbearing. In fact, the Yggy encouraged high playback levels, in part because of the smoothness of its upper midrange and its lack of glare in the treble. The top end was extremely clean and well rendered; cymbals had a full measure of energy and verve, yet the sound wasn’t bright. I loved the way the Yggy revealed cymbal work by great drummers; the combination of the dynamic alacrity mentioned earlier with the treble’s pristine quality made such detail especially engaging. The upper midrange and lower treble were a little more forward than I’ve heard from other DACs, giving a bit of extra presence to vocals, for example. I also heard a bit more sibilance than I do with my reference DACs."

I didn't know how many had ever read this, so I thought it useful to display the paragraph addressing the treble of the unit.

It turned out that a hospital grade isolation transformer cleared up the issue. It should also be remembered that system X and system Y may not react identically to the same piece of gear. I purchased the Yggdrasil because of the over the top, over the top because the Yggdrasil is over the top good, reviews. That said, just because reviewer X, Y and X say something, don't bet the farm on their being right, especially when your standards my not be their standards. OTOH, when virtually everyone is raving about a product where the company doesn't have the margins to do reviewers "favors", as in the Yggdrasil, I do tend to pay more attention. So, I don't give a rat's rump what some reviewer(s) say/said if I am having issues with the item reviewed in my system. Then there is also the simple fact that they didn't review my DAC, they all had reviewed the first version and mine is the newer version.

 

[johnjen]

Ya know…
ofttimes, pretty graphs and charts mean so much to those who can actually read them, but not so much for those who don't, or for those that know that down is always better.
Being able to understand the intended question each measurement is aimed to answer gets way technical very fast.

And really it all comes down to personal preferences, specifically, do you like it,
or not.
We don't listen to numbers, we listen to music, well at least I do.
And that remains as my primary pass/fail decision, do I like the results to my music,
or not.


Well stated AB, and those jitter charts still amaze me every time I see them.
-158dB±? What's that ≈6x10^-7 volts (6 millionths of a volt)?
How many understand what that represents, let alone what the means to achieving those results in an actual operating circuit, requires?

And some measurements are truly useful, especially the charts, but not so much the 'static' numbers, as they can say so little, yet mean less.
Whereas charts are information 'rich' and give a much greater amount of information.
From this info, circuit behavior can be inferred and 'design tweaks' tested.

And of course, we assume that the graphs are an accurate reflection of the circuits actual behavior and are not contaminated by 'extraneous' influences.
Until the obvious becomes, well, all too obvious.
Not to mention that the testers are being tested by the very tests (and results) they use to test…

JJ

 

[LouS]

EDIT: In fact, there may be something that is "lost" be allowing the Yggdrasil to remain powered on, as so many purportedly do. Specifically, the longevity of the unit itself. This is mere speculation on my part though.

Hi gdhal,

Actually the inverse is true. Anyone who works in an industrial environment knows that every time you shut down, startups are a real gamble. When you start up electronic devices the initial in-rush of current often causes failure, and as stated, the electrolyte in capacitors not charged etches the aluminum film, although if excessive heat is an issue during operation due to poor design or the environment, the electrolyte may dry faster causing failure even more quickly than one on the shelf, but that by far is the exception. Gear left running, baring surges and spikes in the supply current, will generally greatly out last gear that is turned on and off with use. I do not however leave my amp on continuously because of the possibility that if it were to take a strike, it could damage my speakers. My preamp has tubes, so obviously unlike transistors, tubes lives are shortened by being left on. That said, generally speaking on is better. Now if you can't hear a difference in an Yggdrasil which is left on, and one that is turned off, I suspect that your system isn't as revealing as mine is. There's nothing wrong with that, many just want pleasing sound, while others want to squeeze every ounce of detail that they can out of a system. My eldest son wants his ears to bleed from excessive highs, others like muted highs, I try for what I consider an accurate replication of the original. My speakers would tend to drive Vandersteen fans crazy as they tend to prefer less treble, less detail. There is no right answer, and that's what makes reviews difficult to depend upon unless you somehow know the reviewer's predilections.