[earnmyturns]

My answer would be I'd like to ensure I made a great $2300 purchase.

I'm going to share a harsh truth. If you have so much angst about your expenditure to keep going on and on about it as you have, you should never have made the purchase. My rule of discretionary spending is very simple: if I would be anxious about something not being worth the price, I just don't even consider it. In fact, anything discretionary I buy, I'd be OK with it going up in smoke tomorrow. If not, I would not get it. Which, BTW, keeps my insurance costs way down, the only possession I have insured against loss is my home. IOW, discretionary is really discretionary. I only started spending (still less than car-cost) in audio gear when it was not material to my balance sheet, and so I could shrug it off like a mediocre travel meal. Living within one's means does wonders to one's peace of mind.

 

[earnmyturns]

Half hour is reasonable. I understand Moffat's/Schiit recommendation as to leaving the unit on.... temperature equilibrium and all that....the recommendation was dropped in version 2 of the manual....

No it's not. None of the resistor array DACs I own stabilize in just half an hour.

 

[gdhal]

You keep mentioning blind testing and assuming one does it. In my lab we regularly perform AB and ABX testing. Here is a picture of a Gungnir MB and Bifrost MB in ABX testing:



The problems involved with ABX testing are many. Level matching, removing distractions, consistent setups, equal cabling both for AC mains and signal, etc. Then there is the listener skill level. If one doesn't know that for which to listen, the listener is guaranteed to fail ABX testing. With auditory training discriminatory ability improves. This is no different than putting green ears in front of the mix console in a recording studio. They have no idea what they are doing. Examples of listening skill training include (but not limited to):

Dave Moulton Golden Ears training
http://www.moultonlabs.com/full/product01

Harman's How To Listen (Dr. Sean Olive and crew responsible, thank-you)
http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/

And yes, those two DACs were distinguishable 8/8 over 7 different trial sessions.

No. I'm assuming one does not do it.

Bob, I agree with you completely regarding the complexity of proper scientific blind testing. Thing is though, you and others taut the notion of "warm up" as though there is some profound difference to be had. Almost as though one is not hearing another verse in the song they are listening to, simply because the device hasn't warmed. if the difference is anything appreciable, it should be easily recognizable under any kind of simple blind test, that one can perform with the help of a friend. Be honest, the differences we are speaking of (writing about) is so subtle that you should ask yourself if it really matters in the grand scheme of the enjoyment one should derive from listening to music. I listen primarily to Grateful Dead. They sound phenomenal regardless of the playback medium. Now I can tell that band from another band one hundred percent of the time in any kind of a blind test. Easy, right? Well, IMO so too should folks be able to tell the difference between cold/warm in any kind of blind test. It doesn't have to be scientific to demonstrate definitively there is or is not a difference. Just something to satisfy ones own belief, which at times can be delusional.

Look, if you or whomever else hears a difference one way or another, and this somehow effects your overall satisfaction of the listening experience, more power to you.

Also, note that as depicted in your post, you are ABX'ing a Gungnir MB and Bifrost MB. In this case it is two different DACs, which in my view would be easier to distinguish among versus the same DAC cold or warm (albeit still difficult). Nevertheless, I remain appreciative of the input you are providing. Obviously you do know what you're talking about, have the credentials, the gear and wherewithal to do all of this.

If there is any consolation to all of this, you (and Jude's latest post) does offer proof to the extent I'm very much inclined to believe you and your measurements of the Yggdrasil.

 

[jude]

@jude That is an outstanding post on your part. And I agree with you, I believe it is relevant where Amir and his data (all data for all DACs) are concerned. Thank you!

Thank you, @gdhal. I'm not sure why @amirm chose not to install Benchmark's driver. I wish to goodness the APx555 worked with Mac so that I could avoid most driver issues, but it doesn't. That said, when there's a DAC driver available -- and if I can get to work with the AP -- I'll use that driver whenever testing (or listening for that matter).

I don't know if you noticed, I later added @amirm's optical digital input test which showed the same sidebands. If you compare that measurement (Fig.1A) to my measurement in Fig.12, you'll see that we're once again showing different results (whether via USB or optical).

 

[gdhal]

No it's not. None of the resistor array DACs I own stabilize in just half an hour.

@earnmyturns Are you one of those folks who hears a difference when an ordinary fuse is reversed?

 

[gdhal]

So my question is are you just being a troll or are you one of those insecure young men who "must be right", or are you maybe just a narcissistic ass who loves the attention of being engaged by experts who know more than you do? Whatever it is, please stop you are just being annoying now.

Some folks look for answers, others look for fights. I am the former, you are the latter.

 

[Ableza]

Some folks look for answers, others look for fights. I am the former, you are the latter.

Perhaps. I see fights in your posts. Or desires for same. And it is really, really tiresome.

 

[adydula]

I would hope after all this you would be more than "very much inclined"....

Alex

 

[atomicbob]

*edit* see post above for entirety if desired.

Also, note that as depicted in your post, you are ABX'ing a Gungnir MB and Bifrost MB. In this case it is two different DACs, which in my view would be easier to distinguish among versus the same DAC cold or warm (albeit still difficult). Nevertheless, I remain appreciative of the input you are providing. Obviously you do know what you're talking about, have the credentials, the gear and wherewithal to do all of this.

If there is any consolation to all of this, you (and Jude's latest post) does offer proof to the extent I'm very much inclined to believe you and your measurements of the Yggdrasil.

I wish to address these last two points for the benefit of the audience. The picture is an example only to give an idea of a typical setup. It was the first one I could find in the limited time I have before engaging in corporate project activities. We have plenty of DACs that have been through ABX testing including two of the same mfg / model DACs with different parameters between them.

My posts are for the benefit of the entire readership, hopefully providing information of value. Your approval is not necessary to me. In my technical measurement posts I provide data and (more recently) information to find reference reading material that will guide a reader to understanding the measurements if not already familiar. Then it is up to the reader to use that information for their own illumination. I'm not telling anyone what to think or what components will match with their personal preferences, for example.

 

[KoshNaranek]

I wish to address these last two points for the benefit of the audience. The picture is an example only to give an idea of a typical setup. It was the first one I could find in the limited time I have before engaging in corporate project activities. We have plenty of DACs that have been through ABX testing including two of the same mfg / model DACs with different parameters between them.

My posts are for the benefit of the entire readership, hopefully providing information of value. Your approval is not necessary to me. In my technical measurement posts I provide data and (more recently) information to find reference reading material that will guide a reader to understanding the measurements if not already familiar. Then it is up to the reader to use that information for their own illumination. I'm not telling anyone what to think or what components will match with their personal preferences, for example.

My approval my not be necessary to you but I wish to convey that I feel privileged to read your posts. They always stretch my mind.

 

[LouS]

I'm going to share a harsh truth. If you have so much angst about your expenditure to keep going on and on about it as you have, you should never have made the purchase. My rule of discretionary spending is very simple: if I would be anxious about something not being worth the price, I just don't even consider it. In fact, anything discretionary I buy, I'd be OK with it going up in smoke tomorrow. If not, I would not get it. Which, BTW, keeps my insurance costs way down, the only possession I have insured against loss is my home. IOW, discretionary is really discretionary. I only started spending (still less than car-cost) in audio gear when it was not material to my balance sheet, and so I could shrug it off like a mediocre travel meal. Living within one's means does wonders to one's peace of mind.

The Scottish in me doesn't allow for that...

 

[bobsherman]

I'm not sure why @amirm chose not to install Benchmark's driver.

I have read where he has been asked the question several times. He has issues with d/ling and installing drivers. He also mentioned difficulties uninstalling drivers etc. Reading this shows he really does understand the OS as much as he claims to. It was also suggested to him if there was an issue with uninstalling something, he could open the reg file and do it there, editing appropriate sections, etc. This seemed to be well over amirs head.

 

[LouS]

No. I'm assuming one does not do it.

Bob, I agree with you completely regarding the complexity of proper scientific blind testing. Thing is though, you and others taut the notion of "warm up" as though there is some profound difference to be had. Almost as though one is not hearing another verse in the song they are listening to, simply because the device hasn't warmed. if the difference is anything appreciable, it should be easily recognizable under any kind of simple blind test, that one can perform with the help of a friend. Be honest, the differences we are speaking of (writing about) is so subtle that you should ask yourself if it really matters in the grand scheme of the enjoyment one should derive from listening to music. I listen primarily to Grateful Dead. They sound phenomenal regardless of the playback medium. Now I can tell that band from another band one hundred percent of the time in any kind of a blind test. Easy, right? Well, IMO so too should folks be able to tell the difference between cold/warm in any kind of blind test. It doesn't have to be scientific to demonstrate definitively there is or is not a difference. Just something to satisfy ones own belief, which at times can be delusional.

Look, if you or whomever else hears a difference one way or another, and this somehow effects your overall satisfaction of the listening experience, more power to you.

Also, note that as depicted in your post, you are ABX'ing a Gungnir MB and Bifrost MB. In this case it is two different DACs, which in my view would be easier to distinguish among versus the same DAC cold or warm (albeit still difficult). Nevertheless, I remain appreciative of the input you are providing. Obviously you do know what you're talking about, have the credentials, the gear and wherewithal to do all of this.

If there is any consolation to all of this, you (and Jude's latest post) does offer proof to the extent I'm very much inclined to believe you and your measurements of the Yggdrasil.

Now you are just full of it. I fish, I have a canoe, kayak, a bass boat, and a large boat for lake Erie. Some love to fish with bamboo poles, do I have to quit fishing because I am more obsessed with it than the guy with a bamboo pole? According to your own logic a crappy S.M.S.L. dac is more than anyone needs, why the heck did you waste money on a crappy Yggdrasil, you won't drop a stanza with a S.M.S.L. dac!

 

[LouS]

I have read where he has been asked the question several times. He has issues with d/ling and installing drivers. He also mentioned difficulties uninstalling drivers etc. Reading this shows he really does understand the OS as much as he claims to. It was also suggested to him if there was an issue with uninstalling something, he could open the reg file and do it there, editing appropriate sections, etc. This seemed to be well over amirs head.

Which SHOULD be telling... If not one is suffering from cognitive dissonance!

 

[B1ll]

Thanks @jude for your efforts to further this discussion. I was always skeptical that the Yggy was simply a "dog" when it came to measurements, despite, to my ears, being a vital part of achieving natural sound over most other DACs. I don't know the history of Amir's relationship with Schiit Audio, but I am under the impression they were/are at odds, and that it was the source of his poor measurements. I think that is clearer now than ever before -- I think everyone should be reaching a similar conclusion, and if they haven't, then I'd love to hear why.