[Anaxilus]

Quote:

You have to love Jasons commitment to his products. I'm glad I have my schiit on order.

That's the Schiit right there!
 

 

[Yuceka]

Jason, Mike and others 
 
Since I have been traveling, I wasn't able to check head-fi for a while. I am the owner of that particular Lyr Mike has borrowed. Mike, you have definitely not offended me at all and I applaud you for having the courage to post your impressions even if they are negative. 
 
First, before owning the Lyr I was using Matrix M-Stage to drive my LCD-2 and Hifiman HE-5 and I was quite pleased with the results that it offered for LCD-2 but I was not really satisfied with the HE-5 as it required more power. So I decided to buy the Lyr as I will be using Orthos only in the future. 
 
My source is Macbook Pro, mostly lossless files, my DAC is Stello DA100 and the Lyr as an amp. I have never heard the Stepdance so I can't comment on it but listening to HE-5 with the Lyr instead of Matrix M-Stage, I have witnessed a big improvement with the Lyr. However, I am not sure if this is even a problem but with my HE-5 I usually have to keep the volume knob at 12 or even 1 or 2 sometimes. Maybe my source (DAC) is not putting out enough voltage into the Lyr? When it comes to technical details of my equipment I am completely a noob and I don't really understand some of the language and discussions about voltage, current etc etc. I am a seminary student who just enjoys listening to music. I have not had too much experience with other amps to compare them with the Lyr. Maybe I do have a problem in my Lyr and that it needs to get checked out. Mike, maybe the tubes are not properly mounted or they have become loose during the transportation? I don't know. If what Mike is saying true and I trust his judgment, I don't know what to say. Maybe more knowledgable head-fi members and Jason can help us out? 
 
 

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Grokit,
X3!
A Dallas area Head-Fi member graciously offered to lend me his already burned-in Schiit Lyr (with the stock tubes) for a few days, along with a some other gear that I haven't played with yet.  I've heard that lending gear is not all that uncommon for this forum, but I have to say, it's a wonderful thing, from my perspective, and I'm very grateful for the opportunity to educate my ears without having to spend any money first!

 

At this writing, I've spent about four hours swapping between my only other amp, a 15V-powered Stepdance and the Schiit Lyr, using only my Sony PCM-M10 as a source and only my LCD-2s at the other end.

 

I know this is going to sound harsh to those who are happy with their Lyrs and I'm particularly concerned about offending the fellow from whom I borrowed the one I have in my possession, but within 15 seconds of the first track I heard through the Lyr, I was already aware of what I'm still convinced after four hours of critical listening:  

 

I would never trade my Stepdance for a Lyr - at least not for use with the Sony PCM-M10 and LCD-2.   

 

Seriously, I'm hearing a huge loss of detail across the entire frequency range, especially in the highs, but also in the mids and bass frequencies.  I would have to describe the sound as "splashy" - it's as if every note is doing a belly flop that splatters all over the neighboring notes. The more complex and detailed the music at any given moment, the more diffuse the sound coming from the Lyr.  This loss of resolution just destroys the imaging and sense of ambiance created by subtle, low-volume echoes and reverb that I've come to take for granted with the Stepdance.   All sense of air and space just gets hammered by a mushiness that accompanies any voice that's louder than its neighbors.  Compared to the Stepdance + LCD-2, the Lyr + LCD-2 pulls the entire sound stage in close to my head, as if I'm listening to a boombox under my bedcovers.   There is a big loss of the sense of space that the Stepdance conveys so nicely - especially with recordings that shine in that regard, like all the most subtle sonics in Cowboy Junkies' "The Trinity Session".  

 

In fact, I feel as if this experience has taught me that there is a very important relationship between the transparency and resolution that an amp can deliver vs. that elusive imaging for which everyone lusts.  I've was never sure that I knew exactly what people were talking about when discussing sound stage and imaging - UNTIL NOW - with the Lyr having taken away that which I was taking for granted.  It's the really low-volume, reverby, echoey stuff that CREATES the sense of space - that defines the sound stage.  When all that low-volume stuff gets smothered into obscurity by the muffling I'm hearing with the Lyr, you're left with a flat, lifeless, wall of sound that's mostly just between your ears.  

 

Consider track 6 from the Matrix Reloaded soundtrack, for example - Team Sleep's "The Passportal":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85QBGCtrMQU

 

The Schiit Lyr is simply INCAPABLE of reproducing this accurately.  The high-intensity electronic "buzzing" that's so crisply delineated with the Stepdance is reduced to nothing but mush by the Lyr.  And when things get really busy - with lots of instruments coming in all at once - the Lyr just smears them all into homologous blobs of sound.  I'm not kidding, the Lyr can't handle this anywhere near as well as the Stepdance does.  I can't imagine the Lyr ever being found pleasing to anyone seriously interested in reproducing classical music, for example.

 

This Lyr is so "woolly" compared to the Stepdance, I'm left wondering if this particular unit is a lemon - or if the tubes are bad - or what?  

 

Are my relatively novice ears actually more discerning than the many satisifed Lyr owners by nature of my having spent just a few months listening to a Stepdance with the LCD-2?  

 

Are all tube amps this bad in terms of resolution?

 

Do any tube amps offer the same resolution and transparency as that had with a Stepdance?

 

Do they cost a fortune?

 

I don't feel as if any of my observations are all that subjective.  To me, this comparison was like ice water down my back - there's nothing subtle about the differences I'm hearing between the Lyr and the Stepdance and so, I suspect that anyone who compares the Lyr to a 15V Stepdance would surely make the same observations.

 

There, I've done it. I'm going to log off now and enjoy a few hours of flame-free existence, before coming back to face the music... 

 

 

Mike

If your sample is as you described, it must be defective.  Bummer.
 
 

 

[DemonicLemming]

The HiFiMan cans do require a lot of juice because of their low sensitivity...when I was using my HE-4s on the Lyr, I think the volume pot was always around 12 o'clock for normal music listening.  By contrast, my LCD-2s are usually at 10 o'clock or so, listening to the same music at the same levels.
 
Quote:

Jason, Mike and others 
 
Since I have been traveling, I wasn't able to check head-fi for a while. I am the owner of that particular Lyr Mike has borrowed. Mike, you have definitely not offended me at all and I applaud you for having the courage to post your impressions even if they are negative. 
 
First, before owning the Lyr I was using Matrix M-Stage to drive my LCD-2 and Hifiman HE-5 and I was quite pleased with the results that it offered for LCD-2 but I was not really satisfied with the HE-5 as it required more power. So I decided to buy the Lyr as I will be using Orthos only in the future. 
 
My source is Macbook Pro, mostly lossless files, my DAC is Stello DA100 and the Lyr as an amp. I have never heard the Stepdance so I can't comment on it but listening to HE-5 with the Lyr instead of Matrix M-Stage, I have witnessed a big improvement with the Lyr. However, I am not sure if this is even a problem but with my HE-5 I usually have to keep the volume knob at 12 or even 1 or 2 sometimes. Maybe my source (DAC) is not putting out enough voltage into the Lyr? When it comes to technical details of my equipment I am completely a noob and I don't really understand some of the language and discussions about voltage, current etc etc. I am a seminary student who just enjoys listening to music. I have not had too much experience with other amps to compare them with the Lyr. Maybe I do have a problem in my Lyr and that it needs to get checked out. Mike, maybe the tubes are not properly mounted or they have become loose during the transportation? I don't know. If what Mike is saying true and I trust his judgment, I don't know what to say. Maybe more knowledgable head-fi members and Jason can help us out? 
 
 

 

 

[Jason Stoddard]

 
Quote:

Jason, Mike and others 
 
Since I have been traveling, I wasn't able to check head-fi for a while. I am the owner of that particular Lyr Mike has borrowed. Mike, you have definitely not offended me at all and I applaud you for having the courage to post your impressions even if they are negative. 
 
First, before owning the Lyr I was using Matrix M-Stage to drive my LCD-2 and Hifiman HE-5 and I was quite pleased with the results that it offered for LCD-2 but I was not really satisfied with the HE-5 as it required more power. So I decided to buy the Lyr as I will be using Orthos only in the future. 
 
My source is Macbook Pro, mostly lossless files, my DAC is Stello DA100 and the Lyr as an amp. I have never heard the Stepdance so I can't comment on it but listening to HE-5 with the Lyr instead of Matrix M-Stage, I have witnessed a big improvement with the Lyr. However, I am not sure if this is even a problem but with my HE-5 I usually have to keep the volume knob at 12 or even 1 or 2 sometimes. Maybe my source (DAC) is not putting out enough voltage into the Lyr? When it comes to technical details of my equipment I am completely a noob and I don't really understand some of the language and discussions about voltage, current etc etc. I am a seminary student who just enjoys listening to music. I have not had too much experience with other amps to compare them with the Lyr. Maybe I do have a problem in my Lyr and that it needs to get checked out. Mike, maybe the tubes are not properly mounted or they have become loose during the transportation? I don't know. If what Mike is saying true and I trust his judgment, I don't know what to say. Maybe more knowledgable head-fi members and Jason can help us out? 
 
 

Your source really shouldn't be a problem at all. I'd like to get the amp back and run it through a full range of tests, when you have a chance. Let me know when it's convenient, and we'll pay shipping both ways and get it back to you quick.
 

 

[zilch0md]

Yuce,
 
I want to publicly thank you for your gracious support of my having posted a negative opinion of your Lyr.  It says a lot about your character and I feel considerable relief that you're not offended.
 
For your benefit and other readers, I'd like to share a portion of one of the PMs I sent to Jason Stoddard last night:
 
"Let me tell you that the difference between the Stepdance and the Lyr is day and night to my ears, in terms of resolution, but in no way is the Lyr putting out anything approaching a rotten sound that would wrinkle most people's brows.  In other words, just as I'm wondering if I've borrowed a "lemon," I think it equally reasonable to wonder if at least some of the most satisfied Lyr owners aren't hearing EXACTLY what I'm hearing and either don't have LCD-2s and/or just haven't heard incredibly clean, controlled and highly detailed sound, the likes of which I'm getting from my Stepdance.  Yes, the Stepdance doesn't offer the dynamics and bass extension of the Lyr (due to the difference in power), but the Stepdance does offer a lot more resolution and transparency than what I'm hearing from this particular Lyr.  Keep in mind that there are many shades of grey between black and white - and the differences I'm noting are a shade of grey that's an easily detectable difference, but not black, if you can follow that analogy."
 
So, for those who might interpret my original post as a SURE indication that the Lyr in question is just plain defective, please understand that Jason hasn't had a chance to look at it yet and in my opinion, with my ears, listening and comparing the Stepdance to the Lyr, I have no problem imagining that the degradation of detail I'm hearing could very well be common to every Lyr or perhaps even to the majority of tube amps. (Keep in mind that I admit having no experience listening to the LCD-2s with any amp other than the Stepdance, and I firmly believe my ability to detect this difference in resolution is, in part, made possible by the fact that I'm using the LCD-2.)  Again, this lack of detail relative to the Stepdance, for which I continue to have no doubt whatsoever, is just a readily detectable difference - a distinct shade of grey - not a total meltdown of detail.  As I wrote previously, it's enough to destroy the low-volume echoey, reverby details that I've concluded are paramount to establishing the sound stage and air we all crave.  
 
I think Jason and the majority of readers would agree that Watts alone do not make a successful amp. Headroom and the traits that come with it are wonderful attributes of the Lyr, but there are many desirable traits an amp can exhibit independent of available power.  It would be incorrect to assume that the Lyr's 4 Watts into 50 Ohms vs. the Stepdance's mere milliwatts would automatically guarantee superior resolution.  So to all Lyr owners, please accept the possibility at least, that an amp that outputs less power, even a little portable amp, could actually offer more detail and transparency. 
 
I very much wish that Yuce himself were here for me to demonstrate this obvious difference in resolution between my Stepdance and his Lyr.  At this writing, I'm awaiting Yuce's permission to send the amp to Jason for inspection, so that we can get his very valuable input and perhaps even a fix.
 
Mike
 
 
 
 

 

[Yuceka]

Mike, 
 
As you said, I wish I was in Dallas to be able to make an assessment as well but I am still stuck in Washington and had to wait for several flight cancelations due to weather conditions. 
 
I don't think anyone should be offended by your impressions on Lyr, nor should think at the same time maybe Lyr is not a good amp. My amp may be defective but I liked it when I had it so if it turns out to be defective and I get a fixed/new, better Lyr, then I can say all of those who are reading this thread: BUY THIS AMP 
 
Also one word about the company, before I bought my M-Stage, I was considering buying an Asgard and I followed both respective threads and decided to go with the M-Stage. And boy did I regret that decision... Not because I M-Stage was bad or that I have heard Asgard but because of Jason's attitude to his customers and his dedication and careful attention to head-fi community. I am a person who cares more about the customer service than the product itself. I don't care if I get a wonderful product with a horrible customer service; things do break and when it's time to deal with the manufacturer you sometimes wish you never bought that that "wonderful product" which has now become useless. So now, Jason's willingness to pay for the shipping both ways and not trying to dodge the problem has truly made me a Schiit fan. Jason could have easily said, "oh there's a problem in your source" or he could have made it so hard that the customer would eventually give up but that's not the case and I think he deserves an applaud here. I am happy to be a Schiit fan and whether or not I consider buying other amps or DACs in the future, I will always have some Schiit in my house : ) 
 
PS: I give Mike okay to ship my amp at your convenience and make another comparison after he receives it back. I may not be able to check the thread or emails quite often as I will be traveling in the next days 

 

[Mikha]

What are special requirements for the DAC output to have no hum or any problems with Shiit Lyr?

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

What are special requirements for the DAC output to have no hum or any problems with Shiit Lyr?

No different than any other amplifier.
 
 

 

[grokit]

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuceka /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
My source is Macbook Pro, mostly lossless files, my DAC is Stello DA100 and the Lyr as an amp. I have never heard the Stepdance so I can't comment on it but listening to HE-5 with the Lyr instead of Matrix M-Stage, I have witnessed a big improvement with the Lyr. However, I am not sure if this is even a problem but with my HE-5 I usually have to keep the volume knob at 12 or even 1 or 2 sometimes. Maybe my source (DAC) is not putting out enough voltage into the Lyr?

I am not so sure that this is a problem either. 12 to 1pm with a 2-volt source is in line with what I experienced with the HE-6 out of the Lyr, and it also agrees with this six moons chart:
 

 
I used to own the HE-5 and it's not much more efficient than the HE-6.

 

[169300]

My Lyr should be here tomorrow. A perfect pairing for my HE-5s. I'm currently driving them out of my Zero, which surprising somehow can actually drive them pretty well. Although, it definitely lacks in sound quality of what the HE-5s are capable of doing.

 

[jronan2]

Quote:

My Lyr should be here tomorrow. A perfect pairing for my HE-5s. I'm currently driving them out of my Zero, which surprising somehow can actually drive them pretty well. Although, it definitely lacks in sound quality of what the HE-5s are capable of doing.

Yeahhhh Buddy!!
 

 

[Rope]

 
Quote:

My Lyr should be here tomorrow. A perfect pairing for my HE-5s. I'm currently driving them out of my Zero, which surprising somehow can actually drive them pretty well. Although, it definitely lacks in sound quality of what the HE-5s are capable of doing.

Batten down the hatches and tie your behind to the sofa, you're in for some real Schiit.  You are going to hear what your HE-5's are all about, for the first time.
 
After you burn-in for a week, roll in some 6N23P's, you'll think a veil has been lifted.  Not that the JJ's are bad, just not as good as other options.
 

 

[zilch0md]

 
Revisiting my somewhat infamous post made two days ago in this thread:
 
Quote:

[snip]
 
At this writing, I've spent about four hours swapping between my only other amp, a 15V-powered Stepdance and the Schiit Lyr, using only my Sony PCM-M10 as a source and only my LCD-2s at the other end.
 

[snip]

 

The more complex and detailed the music at any given moment, the more diffuse the sound coming from the Lyr.  This loss of resolution just destroys the imaging and sense of ambiance created by subtle, low-volume echoes and reverb that I've come to take for granted with the Stepdance.  

 

[snip]

 

There is a big loss of the sense of space that the Stepdance conveys so nicely - especially with recordings that shine in that regard, like all the most subtle sonics in Cowboy Junkies' "The Trinity Session".  

 

In fact, I feel as if this experience has taught me that there is a very important relationship between the transparency and resolution that an amp can deliver vs. that elusive imaging for which everyone lusts.  [I was] never sure that I knew exactly what people were talking about when discussing sound stage and imaging - UNTIL NOW - with the Lyr having taken away that which I was taking for granted.  It's the really low-volume, reverby, echoey stuff that CREATES the sense of space - that defines the sound stage.  When all that low-volume stuff gets smothered into obscurity by the muffling I'm hearing with the Lyr, you're left with a flat, lifeless, wall of sound that's mostly just between your ears.

 

[snip] 

 

And considering Grokit's earlier post:
 
Quote:

X2, that pretty much mirrors my experience comparing the LCD-2 out of the Lyr and the WA22. This is why I think the best match for the Lyr could be the K701, because the LCD-2 is capable of more resolution so it scales up better with higher-quality amplification, where the K701 likes the slam of the Lyr but doesn't benefit as much from the additional resolution of a WA22.

 
And leesure's post, to which Grokit was responding:
 
Quote:

I have a Woo 6SE and heard the WA5 and WA22 under met conditions and my Lyr as 1 day old at the time, so the following comments may be unfair...Compared to the Woo's, the Lyr lacked speed and 'layering'.  It was like the sounds were more homogenized with the Lyr while everything was airier with the Woo's.  The WA22 and the RWA also had better micro-dynamics.  The Lyr had plenty of slam ad macro-dynamics, but the small subtle dynamics...plucking a violin string for example, were better and more complete from the Woo and especially from the RWA.

 

[snip]

 
I just finished reading Tom Martin's review of the Apex Peak/Volcano (which, admittedly, is an unfair comparison to the Lyr, in terms of price):  
 
But when I read the following two paragraphs from Tom Martin's review, I realized that my comments regarding the Lyr's lack of resolution are inversely synonymous with Tom Martin's comments regarding the apparently excellent resolving power of the Apex P/V:
 
 
Quote from http://www.avguide.com/review/apex-peak-headphone-amp-volcano-power-supply-playback-44
 

Listening to the Peak/Volcano combo suggests that a really good front end can do a lot to restore the highest levels sonic transparency that sometimes seem lacking in headphone-based systems. In short, this amp has an astonishing level of resolving power that shows up in its superior handling of spatial information, instrumental decays, and other low-level signals. These small signals are a key test of amplifier resolving power. This isn’t just a sporting thing; it’s the kind of difference that really matters for many kinds of music—if you care about realism.

The Peak/Volcano also expresses its superior resolution in the way it separates instruments. Many amps create a harmoniously blended sound on ensemble work (e.g., the sound of many instruments playing in a band at the same time)—a sound that is pleasantly homogenized, yet for that very reason is also inaccurate. The Peak/Volcano helps you realize that this kind of homogenized presentation is actually the result of lesser amplifiers smearing the distinct sounds of individual instruments into a wash. Once the Peak/Volcano’s much higher levels of resolution come into play, however, you instead hear more detailed contributions from each instrument in the ensemble, and in a way that doesn’t sound at all unnatural, but rather sounds more like the real thing.

 
Having obtained Yuceka's permission to send his amp to Jason Stoddard to get his analysis, I'll be mailing it tomorrow morning, but I am increasingly concerned that Yuceka's Lyr could be "working as designed."
 
Mike
 
 

 

[sphinxvc]

Quote:

 
Revisiting my somewhat infamous post made two days ago in this thread:
 

And considering Grokit's earlier post:
 
Quote:

X2, that pretty much mirrors my experience comparing the LCD-2 out of the Lyr and the WA22. This is why I think the best match for the Lyr could be the K701, because the LCD-2 is capable of more resolution so it scales up better with higher-quality amplification, where the K701 likes the slam of the Lyr but doesn't benefit as much from the additional resolution of a WA22.

 
And leesure's post, to which Grokit was responding:
 
Quote:

I have a Woo 6SE and heard the WA5 and WA22 under met conditions and my Lyr as 1 day old at the time, so the following comments may be unfair...Compared to the Woo's, the Lyr lacked speed and 'layering'.  It was like the sounds were more homogenized with the Lyr while everything was airier with the Woo's.  The WA22 and the RWA also had better micro-dynamics.  The Lyr had plenty of slam ad macro-dynamics, but the small subtle dynamics...plucking a violin string for example, were better and more complete from the Woo and especially from the RWA.

 

[snip]

 
I just finished reading Tom Martin's review of the Apex Peak/Volcano (which, admittedly, is an unfair comparison to the Lyr, in terms of price):  
 
But when I read the following two paragraphs from Tom Martin's review, I realized that my comments regarding the Lyr's lack of resolution are inversely synonymous with Tom Martin's comments regarding the apparently excellent resolving power of the Apex P/V:
 
 
 
Having obtained Yuceka's permission to send his amp to Jason Stoddard to get his analysis, I'll be mailing it tomorrow morning, but I am increasingly concerned that Yuceka's Lyr could be "working as designed."
 
Mike
 
 

 
I personally wouldn't pair the LCD2s with the Lyr.  IMHO, it's a bottleneck for the LCD2s.  Now, I heard it with stock tubes and I don't know if rolling tubes helps but from what I've heard of the pairing, the Lyr doesn't do justice to the LCD2s the same way a WA22, balanced Isabellina, a modded Mad Ear+ HD, or RSA Apache do.  Based on this and Grokit's experience, I would think the same is true of the HE-6.  It holds back the resolution of both cans, so I can relate to what you're saying here Mike.  Of course, there's still nothing that can drive ANY of the planars at the same price point, but price no object, you've got to do better than the Lyr for those two kilobucks, or live with the fact that you're not getting 100% out of your cans.
 
For something like the HE-5LE, HE-4, and the HE-500 to a lesser extent, the Lyr is perfect as those cans have an inherent lack of resolution compared to the aforementioned two.
 
I know a couple of you are very happy with the LCD-2 / HE-6 pairing with the Lyr and that's cool - this is just my humble opinion.