Schiit Gungnir DAC
Jan 31, 2022 at 10:10 PM Post #6,451 of 7,050
A nice Head-fier sold his Gungnir delta-sigma to me so now I have both versions of Gungnir in my living room system. Time for some extended comparisons to see if I like one more than the other.
 
Jan 31, 2022 at 10:22 PM Post #6,452 of 7,050
Oh, and a very UNscientific sampling of Schiit thread participants makes me think there are more Yggdrasils decoding for speakers than there are for head phones. I don't know why, but I have seen a few posts describing Yggdrasil giving better spatial information and having less phase distortion artifacts. Maybe those things are easier to hear from speakers in a room than from head phones in your ears.
 
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Jan 31, 2022 at 10:47 PM Post #6,453 of 7,050
Oh, and a very UNscientific sampling of Schiit thread participants makes me think there are more Yggdrasils decoding for speakers than there are for head phones. I don't know why, but I have seen a few posts describing Yggdrasil giving better spatial information and having less phase distortion artifacts. Maybe those things are easier to hear from speakers in a romm than from head phones in you ears.
Weird, I have. Gungnir multibit and Yggy GS, and after trying both with HP and Speakers, I found subjectively the same thing. I liked the Yggy for speakers and Gumby for headphones
 
Feb 1, 2022 at 5:49 AM Post #6,454 of 7,050
Weird, I have. Gungnir multibit and Yggy GS, and after trying both with HP and Speakers, I found subjectively the same thing. I liked the Yggy for speakers and Gumby for headphones
I think it’s because Yggy does soundstage and imaging better. Speakers excel at this if the room is properly treated.
 
Feb 18, 2022 at 6:36 PM Post #6,455 of 7,050
If we can hear the difference between competently designed DACs that absolutely means that something is wrong. A $10 000 DAC that is well designed and implemented will sound the same as a well designed and implemented $300 DAC as long as both the digital conversion stage and the analogue output stage are capable of audible transparency. All of the zeros after the decimal place beyond audibility are completely meaningless. The Modius for example will sound just as wonderful as the Yggy when blind listening. Those people who "test" with their eyes are really testing with their wallets and the more expensive the device is and looks, the better it tests. I owned and really enjoyed a first Gen Gungnir, purchased brand new from Schiit. I even did the USB board upgrade myself.
The sort of argument as you are presently making does emerge over and over again in audio circles.

Its a variation/extension of the argument that if two pieces of equipment measure very similarly then they should sound essentially identical in blind tests —but we know beyond any reasonable doubt that this is simply not at all the case universally.

Let me offer a contrary perspective on this:

I would argue that such positions unfortunately represent rather extreme and Procrustean oversimplification, and as such, are not really logically supportable.

We know that psychoacoustic loadings are varied, and work in several ways to color perception. We tend to forget: human beings can be just as perceptually biased *against* perceiving actual sonic differences as they can be biased towards hearing differences that do not exist outside of their preconceptions.

Along with those who tend to “hear what they want to hear” there are perhaps just as commonly those who “don’t hear what they don’t want to hear”. Fortunately, it would seem most of us who enjoy quality reproduction of recorded music are not so rigid in our presumptions, in either of these ways, and can therefore freely make reasonably honest and meaningful observations and commentaries about qualitative sound differences when experienced.

This biggest problem with promulgating such a dogmatic argument, as I see it, is that this can unduly confuse people who are new to the enjoyment of quality audio reproduction and also intimidate them away from openly articulating what they are actually noticing when listening.

In my opinion, as such, there is simply a dead-end of unhelpfulness and inflexibility implied by the assumption of such a rigid stance.
 
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Feb 19, 2022 at 2:55 PM Post #6,456 of 7,050
Im considering getting the Gungir multibit with Unison usb as an upgrade to my bifrost 2. Would it be worth the extra cost? or should I go straight to the yggy?

current amps are lp, wa 3, jot 2
I have LP and JOT2 as well as Bifrost 2. At the end of 2021 I got a really sweet deal on a Gungnir a2 with gen 5 USB. Source is USB and Jriver. On my headphone rigs I immediately heard a difference. The A2 is definitely a bump up in sound quality. It's not as fat or warm sounding as the Bifrost 2 but in a good way. It's slightly drier sounding but is tighter sounding in all regards with better refined treble for sure. I was initially just wanting to send it in for unison upgrade but I love the way it sounds like it is.

IMO the jump from 699 to 1299 does not compute in the way of $600 more gets you 2x better sound. It is a better dac though. Try and grab a well loved used one for $800 tops, it's nice to have 2 of the best dacs bang for the buck soundwise if you like multibit sound. They do have the best sense of imaging and transients that delta sigma can't touch IMO. If you want a different and enjoyable sound and something just to mess with I'd get a modius. Probably the best bang for th buck non multibit dac there is and since swapping to ESS people are saying it's better than the original AKM version.

Also wanted to add for me personally A/B ing 2 dacs on the spots switching back and forth to tell differences is useless. I only hear differences after I use a dac non stop for a length of time. Then I switch dacs and relisten to the stuff I had been on previous dac. Only then does it become more apparent the subtleties and differences in dacs sounds. The output stages and the input have a lot to do with the sound of a dac. Not just the same Chinese chips on cookie cutter designs to achieve the best artificial testing results output. Of course all "those" dacs will sound the same.
 
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Feb 19, 2022 at 3:59 PM Post #6,457 of 7,050
I have LP and JOT2 as well as Bifrost 2. At the end of 2021 I got a really sweet deal on a Gungnir a2 with gen 5 USB. Source is USB and Jriver. On my headphone rigs I immediately heard a difference. The A2 is definitely a bump up in sound quality. It's not as fat or warm sounding as the Bifrost 2 but in a good way. It's slightly drier sounding but is tighter sounding in all regards with better refined treble for sure. I was initially just wanting to send it in for unison upgrade but I love the way it sounds like it is.

IMO the jump from 699 to 1299 does not compute in the way of $600 more gets you 2x better sound. It is a better dac though. Try and grab a well loved used one for $800 tops, it's nice to have 2 of the best dacs bang for the buck soundwise if you like multibit sound. They do have the best sense of imaging and transients that delta sigma can't touch IMO. If you want a different and enjoyable sound and something just to mess with I'd get a modius. Probably the best bang for th buck non multibit dac there is and since swapping to ESS people are saying it's better than the original AKM version.

Also wanted to add for me personally A/B ing 2 dacs on the spots switching back and forth to tell differences is useless. I only hear differences after I use a dac non stop for a length of time. Then I switch dacs and relisten to the stuff I had been on previous dac. Only then does it become more apparent the subtleties and differences in dacs sounds. The output stages and the input have a lot to do with the sound of a dac. Not just the same Chinese chips on cookie cutter designs to achieve the best artificial testing results output. Of course all "those" dacs will sound the same.
Apparently whoever minds the Schiit website is unaware of the availability of an ESS equipped Modius, as was I.
 
Feb 19, 2022 at 5:07 PM Post #6,458 of 7,050
Apparently whoever minds the Schiit website is unaware of the availability of an ESS equipped Modius, as was I.
Yes my bad the modi 3e is equipped as you say for 129 the modius is probably going that route as well. What I meant to say in previous post is the modi 3e is damn near modius level now so I think modius will be even better if that does happen. Thanks for the correction lol
 
Feb 20, 2022 at 10:19 AM Post #6,459 of 7,050
I have LP and JOT2 as well as Bifrost 2. At the end of 2021 I got a really sweet deal on a Gungnir a2 with gen 5 USB. Source is USB and Jriver. On my headphone rigs I immediately heard a difference. The A2 is definitely a bump up in sound quality. It's not as fat or warm sounding as the Bifrost 2 but in a good way. It's slightly drier sounding but is tighter sounding in all regards with better refined treble for sure. I was initially just wanting to send it in for unison upgrade but I love the way it sounds like it is.

IMO the jump from 699 to 1299 does not compute in the way of $600 more gets you 2x better sound. It is a better dac though. Try and grab a well loved used one for $800 tops, it's nice to have 2 of the best dacs bang for the buck soundwise if you like multibit sound. They do have the best sense of imaging and transients that delta sigma can't touch IMO. If you want a different and enjoyable sound and something just to mess with I'd get a modius. Probably the best bang for th buck non multibit dac there is and since swapping to ESS people are saying it's better than the original AKM version.

Also wanted to add for me personally A/B ing 2 dacs on the spots switching back and forth to tell differences is useless. I only hear differences after I use a dac non stop for a length of time. Then I switch dacs and relisten to the stuff I had been on previous dac. Only then does it become more apparent the subtleties and differences in dacs sounds. The output stages and the input have a lot to do with the sound of a dac. Not just the same Chinese chips on cookie cutter designs to achieve the best artificial testing results output. Of course all "those" dacs will sound the same.
Don't hesitate to get the Unison bro. I held out for months with gen 5. I totally wasted those months I held out. Unison is pretty significant in upgrade. Of course imo.
 
Feb 20, 2022 at 2:30 PM Post #6,460 of 7,050
I have LP and JOT2 as well as Bifrost 2. At the end of 2021 I got a really sweet deal on a Gungnir a2 with gen 5 USB. Source is USB and Jriver. On my headphone rigs I immediately heard a difference. The A2 is definitely a bump up in sound quality. It's not as fat or warm sounding as the Bifrost 2 but in a good way. It's slightly drier sounding but is tighter sounding in all regards with better refined treble for sure. I was initially just wanting to send it in for unison upgrade but I love the way it sounds like it is.

IMO the jump from 699 to 1299 does not compute in the way of $600 more gets you 2x better sound. It is a better dac though. Try and grab a well loved used one for $800 tops, it's nice to have 2 of the best dacs bang for the buck soundwise if you like multibit sound. They do have the best sense of imaging and transients that delta sigma can't touch IMO. If you want a different and enjoyable sound and something just to mess with I'd get a modius. Probably the best bang for th buck non multibit dac there is and since swapping to ESS people are saying it's better than the original AKM version.

Also wanted to add for me personally A/B ing 2 dacs on the spots switching back and forth to tell differences is useless. I only hear differences after I use a dac non stop for a length of time. Then I switch dacs and relisten to the stuff I had been on previous dac. Only then does it become more apparent the subtleties and differences in dacs sounds. The output stages and the input have a lot to do with the sound of a dac. Not just the same Chinese chips on cookie cutter designs to achieve the best artificial testing results output. Of course all "those" dacs will sound the same.

Interestingly enough I ended up going the opposite direction. The Gungnir A2, while wider sounding had this grating aggressive nature to it eventually. It was just a bit too forward for my system. The Bifrost 2 on the other hand would never cause fatigue and still sounded fantastic. I'll miss the wider staging and bit more textured bass but I'll take fatigue free listening any day. Plus, the SE outputs on the Bifrost 2 are far more serviceable.
 
Feb 20, 2022 at 2:51 PM Post #6,461 of 7,050
Interestingly enough I ended up going the opposite direction. The Gungnir A2, while wider sounding had this grating aggressive nature to it eventually. It was just a bit too forward for my system. The Bifrost 2 on the other hand would never cause fatigue and still sounded fantastic. I'll miss the wider staging and bit more textured bass but I'll take fatigue free listening any day. Plus, the SE outputs on the Bifrost 2 are far more serviceable.

Yeah I don't find either dac grating or to cause fatigue. Actually the Bifrost 2 is a bit laid back. Also the SE out being inferior on Gungnir is way overblown IMO.
 
Feb 20, 2022 at 3:11 PM Post #6,462 of 7,050
Yeah I don't find either dac grating or to cause fatigue. Actually the Bifrost 2 is a bit laid back. Also the SE out being inferior on Gungnir is way overblown IMO.

Every setup is different, if you've got a laid back setup the Gungnir A2 may be the perfect fit. After owning it for a considerable amount of time it'd get a bit forward with my LS50 speakers, for sure. The Bifrost 2 with the more laid back presentation really fits better in my system. I felt the difference between SE and BAL was pretty obvious, as the LS50 was quite revealing of it. The SE wasn't BAD, it just wasn't up to the BAL performance of the Gungnir.
 
Feb 20, 2022 at 6:28 PM Post #6,464 of 7,050
I wasn’t aware of an A2 upgrade to Gungnir? When did that happen?

I'm not sure when it became available, but I upgraded my Gungnir OG to multibit last year and it is worth every penny of the investment.
 
Feb 20, 2022 at 8:10 PM Post #6,465 of 7,050
I'm not sure when it became available, but I upgraded my Gungnir OG to multibit last year and it is worth every penny of the investment.
My Gungnir MB is a B sn, which supposedly designates the A2, was purchased new on 9/21/17. I think it was one of the first A2s, if such a thing even exists. I say the latter because absent Schiit admitting such a thing exists, eh... who knows? I have seen pix of differences in the components on the pcb, but can't vouch for them. That said, not once since I received it have I even thought about trying to improve upon it, because I am certain it cannot be improved for the $700-800 I could get out of it and I am not even sure that I could improve upon it for the $1250 I paid for it. It ain't leaving, but ymmv.

N.B. I don't use the usb input or the SE outputs, and don't need volume control, mqa, dsd, or >192k sample rate conversion. My opinion is based on sound alone. Reports from ears I trust would indicate that the Bifrost 2 is voiced more like the Gungnir MB A1 and the Yggy A2, the Gungnir A2 more like the Yggy A1, and I haven't heard even a small portion of the dacs available (15-20), and nothing over $2k in my own system.
 
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