[guido]

Quote:

Will that make a difference? The V800's volume knob has much smoother feeling as it feels like non-stepped attenuator. I used to set the V200 at max and use the V800's attenuator since it's digitally controlled, hence no cross-talk or whatever issue could occur. Unless you wanted to use the V200 as pre with different DAC then it's not suitable for that purpose.

It is suggested by Violectric to use the V800 with the volume knob at or near the maximum in order to avoid loss of digital data...read previous postings in this thread regarding this fact.
 
The V200 volume knob should be used instead and possibly within the 12-4 o-clock range [by adjusting gain via the jumpers]

 

[zhunter]

I actually heard nothing loss in sonic wise when leaving it at moderate level, for example 10 to 2 o'clock, comparing to leaving it at max, and the amp at 10 to 2 o'clock. I usually listen to music quite loud, never heard any of degradation in terms of sound quality. It might happen on paper, but in reality your ears could not feel the differences. So it's like a solution for Vio stacks as pre-amp function as well as normal dac/amp, yeah and optimally you should look for other one with proper preamp volume attenuator. I personally prefer to use the V800's volume knob rather than the V200's, since its much smoother, and sometimes increasing to higher step on the V200's attenuator is too loud, and vice versa, each step on V200 is not really optimal to my listening level.

 

[guido]

>>>zhunter replied to this thread on August 27, 1:58 pm
The RCAs on V800 has higher priority than XLRs, you can't use them simultaneously since the XLR output will be muted automatically when RCAs are dominated.<<<<
 
zhunter I just hooked up the V800 RCA outputs into my power amp and it works even when  XLR cables are connected to the V800...hence the XLR outputs are NOT muted when the RCAs are used as well.
 
So everything now works as I was hoping...sounding good too!

 

[AManAnd88Keys]

Quote:

It is suggested by Violectric to use the V800 with the volume knob at or near the maximum in order to avoid loss of digital data...read previous postings in this thread regarding this fact.
 
The V200 volume knob should be used instead and possibly within the 12-4 o-clock range [by adjusting gain via the jumpers]

Please tell me where you've got that from. Taken from the first page of this thread, out of the interview with Fried Reim:
 
[size=10pt]Some words about digital volume control …
  
The benefit of digital volume control at first glance is, that there will be no more scratching,
there will be no channel mismatch, there will be no crosstalk issues.

Digital volume control can be made with up-down buttons or
incrementals or real potentiometers – like Violectric does.

In that case a linear tapper is used, because the volume control itself is made dB-linear inside the D/A converter.
As this mirrors a “real life” feeling only imperfect when turning the potentiometer,
we added some resistors to “bend” the responding law from the potentiometer to have a nearly perfect analog feeling. 

A simple DC voltage is attenuated by the potentiometer. The result is fed to an A/D converter, here a digital control signal
is made to attenuate the digital audio signal inside the D/A converter BEFORE converting it to analog.

A digital 24 bit signal represents a dynamic range of 144 dB – much more than can be found in real life.
People who are doing real world recordings can tell, that it is nearly impossible to record more than 60 dB dynamic range
with a microphone - although microphone makers claim dynamic ranges from their mics to be more that 130 dB.
This may be true when recording a cricket near a starting F-14 Tomcat. But - who needs that.

Also, sitting in your living room, it is hard to follow dynamic ranges of more that 20 – 30 dB unattenuated without
having trouble with your neighbors afterwards.
Todays pop music dynamic range is reduced during recording to 2 – 3 dB …

Please also note that harmonic distortion inside the signal cannot be smaller than the dynamic range.
It is not possible to have 100 dB THD (0,001%) with 90 dB dynamic range.
But it is possible to have 110 dB THD (0,0003%) with 120 dB dynamic range !

The CD format offers 16 bit which means a dynamic range of 96 dB and distortions which cannot be lower than 0,0016%.
A 24 bit signal offers a dynamic range of 144 dB with theoretical minimum distortions at 0,00001%.
This is not possible to achieve in real life.
The best AD converters today offer dynamic ranges from 120 dB with distortion figures about –110 dB THD.
Lots of losses have to be faced during recording, editing, mixing …   

Digital attenuation is done by shifting the signal from MSB (Most-Significant-Bit) to LSB (Least-Significant-Bit).
Shifting a complete bit in LSB direction (and replacing it with a 0) means 6 dB attenuation.
When a 16 bit CD signal is input to a 24 bit DA converter, this signal may be attenuated
by 6dB x 8 Bit = 48 dB = factor 200:1 WITHOUT changing anything from the original data.

We also learned that a real 24 bit signal carries a maximum of
20 “senseful” bits - in practice there are no more than 18 bits.
So, also a 24 bit signal may be attenuated by a minimum of 6dB x 4 Bit = 24 dB = factor 35:1 WITHOUT doing any harm to the original data.

So – in our opinion - digital attenuation is the best thing that can happen to a signal (except not being attenuated).

Of coarse provisions should be made to adapt different working levels in the audio chain.
It makes no sense to have a DA converter which offers its technical data only when dramatic amounts of output voltage are present on its outputs. And because you need only 1 or 2 of these volts you are forced to always digitally attenuate the signal in advance.
The maximum output level from a DA converter should be adjusted in the analog make-up circuitry between
DA chip and output sockets without changing output impedances and without using special measuring equipment.
Afterwards, attenuating the signal digitally will not be an issue at all.  [/size]
 
[size=10pt]Just think of your analog setup - source, pre amp, power amp, speakers.[/size]
[size=10pt]The ideal analog chain can mirror a dynamic range of about 130 dB.[/size]
[size=10pt]Your amp, offering 100 W RMS, will reduce this dynamic range to a maximum of 100 dB as it has 30 dB gain - always (!!) whether you need it our not.[/size]
[size=10pt]Think of the volume control from your (pre)amp. What is the maximum position you are using when you’re alone  ?[/size]
[size=10pt]If it is 12:00 you will again limit the abilities from your analog system by another 20 - 30 dB !! [/size]
[size=10pt]If it is 3:00 you will cut only around 10 dB.[/size]
 
[size=10pt]As you can see, every analog system is far away from the ideal performance but it seems that nobody cares about that since we are used to it.[/size]
[size=10pt]But ugly, ugly bit cutting is damned because it seems to be obvious that the signal is harmed.
Yes, it is harmed but this happens in regions where there is no content![/size]
[size=10pt]Please keep in mind that we are talking about 24 bit. A 16 bit signal, treated with digital attenuation will definitely be harmed!![/size]
 
Or am I missing something here?

 

[guido]

Is is stated very clearly on page 14 of the V800 manual..
 
"Since the potentiometer affects word data length [and so signal accuracy] , a setting closest possible to the right end stop should be chosen to achieve the max desired loudness. Coarse level should always be set by means of the DIP switches..."

 

[zhunter]

Quote:

>>>zhunter replied to this thread on August 27, 1:58 pm
The RCAs on V800 has higher priority than XLRs, you can't use them simultaneously since the XLR output will be muted automatically when RCAs are dominated.<<<<
 
zhunter I just hooked up the V800 RCA outputs into my power amp and it works even when  XLR cables are connected to the V800...hence the XLR outputs are NOT muted when the RCAs are used as well.
 
So everything now works as I was hoping...sounding good too!

Yeah, it was my mistake in spelling, I meant the V200, hence I edited the post. The V200's RCAs has higher priority than XLR inputs, it did have some troubles when doing A/B tests some DACs on the V200 since there is no switching for balanced/unbalanced inputs, and as long as the the RCA input is dominated, the XLR one is muted, so I had to completely unplug the RCA if I wanted to tried the balanced input. But using the RCAs as output is no problem, that was the way I used the Vio stack as pre to my Zana like I said: V800>XLR>V200>RCA>ZD.
V800's both ouputs work simutaneously.

Good to hear its now working good.

 

[project86]

Quote:

Is is stated very clearly on page 14 of the V800 manual..
 
"Since the potentiometer affects word data length [and so signal accuracy] , a setting closest possible to the right end stop should be chosen to achieve the max desired loudness. Coarse level should always be set by means of the DIP switches..."

 
It seems Fried is acknowledging the theoretical issues in one spot, and the real world results in another, while keeping in mind that audiophiles already have a prejudice against digital volume control. 

 

[BournePerfect]

Quote:

 
It seems Fried is acknowledging the theoretical issues in one spot, and the real world results in another, while keeping in mind that audiophiles already have a prejudice against digital volume control. 

 
My thoughts exactly.
 
-Daniel

 

[AManAnd88Keys]

Quote:

 
It seems Fried is acknowledging the theoretical issues in one spot, and the real world results in another, while keeping in mind that audiophiles already have a prejudice against digital volume control. 

I second that.

 

[BournePerfect]

Fourth'd.

 
-Daniel

 

[kn19h7]

Quote:

[size=10pt]The maximum output level from a DA converter should be adjusted in the analog make-up circuitry between
DA chip and output sockets without changing output impedances and without using special measuring equipment.
Afterwards, attenuating the signal digitally will not be an issue at all.  [/size]

 
Quote:

Is is stated very clearly on page 14 of the V800 manual..
 
"Since the potentiometer affects word data length [and so signal accuracy] , a setting closest possible to the right end stop should be chosen to achieve the max desired loudness. Coarse level should always be set by means of the DIP switches..."

 
...I see no conflicts?
 
Well, I'm just a passerby.

 

[Baxide]

Imagine playing your lovely 192KHz file and reducing the resolution of it to a lower digital signal level. Doesn't come across as a good idea to me. Digital volume controls do not have a place in an expensive DAC. It's like adding water to a fine glass of champagne.

 

[AManAnd88Keys]

Quote:

Imagine playing your lovely 192KHz file and reducing the resolution of it to a lower digital signal level. Doesn't come across as a good idea to me. Digital volume controls do not have a place in an expensive DAC. It's like adding water to a fine glass of champagne.

Yeah, sure... that's why Violectric puts digital volume control in their DAC. They of course have no idea what they are doing and one should never use the volume control, it's only there for fun!

 

[project86]

Quote:

Yeah, sure... that's why Violectric puts digital volume control in their DAC. They of course have no idea what they are doing and one should never use the volume control, it's only there for fun!

 
Same applies for Esoteric, MSB, Resonessence Labs, Luxman, Auralic, Light Harmonic, Wadia, Bel Canto, dCS, etc. Apparently all of them are making a mistake by offering digital domain volume controls. 

 

[BournePerfect]

Quote:

 
Same applies for Esoteric, MSB, Resonessence Labs, Luxman, Auralic, Light Harmonic, Wadia, Bel Canto, dCS, etc. Apparently all of them are making a mistake by offering digital domain volume controls. 

Man, never any Eximus love...

 
-Daniel