[matts19]

I am looking for recommendations. After spending couple of years trying out various (mostly affordable) DAC/AMPs, I realized that my preference decidedly tilted towards gears with "black" background. I hope you know what I mean

The most black background I've ever come across in a DAC so far is Audio-GD R2R-11. For AMP that has to be Violectric V200. This is the kind of silence I am looking for - shall I say the ability to render notes out of nothingness? Dare I say "sound of silence" ?

This has nothing to do with measurements because Topping L30/E30 had the best measurements of everything I owned but I felt the air was filled with something. It's not simply about "rolled-off treble" thingy either, because Asgard 3 had rolled off treble (for lack of better term) and it still had something saturating the air, instead of having completely void space.

I am curious about your experience and what other gears you could recommend in this regard. Thanks!

 

[dunring]

I have it with a Topping e50 and L30 ii dac/amp combo running from optical or a Febsmart USB card at the bottom of the computer away from everything. It's up against the heavy shielded side of the power supply, with it pulling air from the vents below.
The E30 will do just as well, if you use a Samsung or Apple old not-fast charger for power. It's totally black background for 10 ohm IEMs even pausing a song in high gain max volume to test for it. The Topping l30 II is kingpin for a silent noise floor.

 

[wolfen68]

In the affordable space I've had a good experience with the FiiO K7. I find the background black to my ears, and even so with a sensitive IEM.

 

[Strale]

Hello @matts19

The first time I experienced that black background was on Astell & Kern SR35 DAP. That somehow separates it from the rest. With that, everything was raised on the next level, everything sounds better on the black background. I would say it is the blackness between the instruments - like the notes appear from nowhere and then disappears back in the same 'abyss', or simply as you said: ''to render notes out of nothingness''. I still do not know what that actually is. I suppose it is not just low background noise, but together with it maybe fast transients, high clarity/definition, great micro-dynamics,...I do not know. Above all, I do not know if it is due to DAC or AMP, or both together (combination)...?

I am now in a search for desktop DAC/AMP solution/combination (without battery) which will give me such black background signature (possibility to follow individual instruments and vocals clearly, great micro-dynamics, non-fatiguing mids and highs, laid-back signature...). Then I stumbled upon this thread, but not very much info here...maybe I am chasing ghosts after all, which can happen sometimes in the audio realm

Anyhow, I am now curious about Violectric v200 amp. On a couple of places online such ''black background'' signature is mentioned for it. You listed it too. So, my question is did you experience this sound what we are searching for on Violectric v200 independently of the DAC connected to it? I mean did you maybe try different DACs with Violectric v200, and did you always have that ''black background'' impression out of it?

Thanks in advance.

P.S. I give a strong recommendation for A&K SR35, but it is a portable device.

 

[matts19]

Hello @matts19

The first time I experienced that black background was on Astell & Kern SR35 DAP. That somehow separates it from the rest. With that, everything was raised on the next level, everything sounds better on the black background. I would say it is the blackness between the instruments - like the notes appear from nowhere and then disappears back in the same 'abyss', or simply as you said: ''to render notes out of nothingness''. I still do not know what that actually is. I suppose it is not just low background noise, but together with it maybe fast transients, high clarity/definition, great micro-dynamics,...I do not know. Above all, I do not know if it is due to DAC or AMP, or both together (combination)...?

I am now in a search for desktop DAC/AMP solution/combination (without battery) which will give me such black background signature (possibility to follow individual instruments and vocals clearly, great micro-dynamics, non-fatiguing mids and highs, laid-back signature...). Then I stumbled upon this thread, but not very much info here...maybe I am chasing ghosts after all, which can happen sometimes in the audio realm

Anyhow, I am now curious about Violectric v200 amp. On a couple of places online such ''black background'' signature is mentioned for it. You listed it too. So, my question is did you experience this sound what we are searching for on Violectric v200 independently of the DAC connected to it? I mean did you maybe try different DACs with Violectric v200, and did you always have that ''black background'' impression out of it?

Thanks in advance.

P.S. I give a strong recommendation for A&K SR35, but it is a portable device.

I'm glad you understood what I meant by black background... it's not about background noise or SNR or SINAD or anything like that... gears with black background simply sound better and more authentic to my ears. I feel like I had that experience with V200 (and G111 to similar extent) when I owned it. I don't remember to what extent DAC contributed to this experience but V200 by itself is quite "dark" regardless.

 

[Strale]

Thanks @matts19

@curry7902 this is getting interesting because I also have Ifi Zen DAC v2 and I planned to do some blind test comparisons in following days (weeks) between it and previously mentioned A&K SR35 DAP.

I like Ifi Zen DAC v2 very much, mostly because of its very sweet timbre, it is easy on ears, non-fatiguing, but when I switch to SR35 this ''black background'' is somehow the first thing I notice there and it draws me into the music like nothing. The feeling for me is: every note starts and ends from nowhere, so every individual instrument is so clearly defined that you have a feeling like each instrument has a dedicated headphone on your head .
I am aware that such description could all be an imagination, so I will do some blind tests (Zen DAC v2 Vs. A&K SR35) and report the results (probably in a week or two, I would like to that properly, volume matched as much as possible etc.).

Btw, I previously did some blind tests on Ifi Zen DAC v2 Vs. Creative Sound BlasterX AE-5 connected to Heed CanAmp (using AKG K-701 headphones with gel pads from K712). I could always tell them apart successfully - the main difference was that 'sweet' tonality from Zen DAC which gave impression that sound is somehow smoother and more laid back. AE-5 was somehow grainy - there was stronger attack in upper base/midrange. When I say like that it seems the differences were pretty easy to spot, but hell no! The differences were very subtle, pretty hard to notice in the blind test (but obviously possible to spot). Before blind test, I had a feeling the differences are like day and night. That is why I would like to perform blind test on Zen DAC Vs. SR35 now, to see more clearly this ''black background''

 

[Strale]

I did some blind testing on SR35 Vs. Ifi Zen DAC v2. I did it with the help of my friend the following way.

First we volume matched two devices as much as we could by ears (I know it's not perfect method but we had no other option). I tested it on Sophie Zelmani track ''I can't change''. I choose it because it is acoustic track which usually benefits a lot from ''black background''. I also have to say I spent significant amount of time with both devices (couple of months), so I am very much familiar with their individual sound signatures. I also listened to both of them right before the test for a couple of minutes (the mentioned track which I choose for comparisons).

I would completely leave the room and also cover my ears not the hear any sound while my friend connects the gears. Once he connected headphones (K712 Pro) into SR35 or Zen DAC, he would immediately start playing it. After that I would enter the room with my eyes covered. I would put headphones on my head and try to determine which one is playing.

I was 100% successful to guess it correctly. It was easier than my previous blind test (Zen DAC Vs. Creative AE-5). In this test I would know after just a couple of seconds which one is playing and I was pretty confident. The main difference was indeed this black background, at least I was really focused on that to find it (important aspect of blind test - to know somehow what are you looking for).

So, I have to say that Ifi Zen DAC, although it sounds really nice and smooth, it does not belong to this ''black background'' club.

 

[ozz007]

I'm Batman

 

[Strale]

As @matts19 explained:

it's not about background noise or SNR or SINAD or anything like that... gears with black background simply sound better and more authentic to my ears.

At this point I am prone to think this black background impression is born mostly out of fast transients in the amplifier. I noticed people usually link black background to the background noise (hissing sound), but here we are not talking about it, so no bat's ears are needed for that to be noticed

In Zen DAC I noticed all notes are somehow a bit extended covering all the voids. Not the case with SR35 where notes end faster.

In the review of @WaveTheory also Schiit Magnius is mentioned as one of those amps with black background - in his final thoughts:

Full review is here.

So, @WaveTheory could you maybe compare Violectric V200 with Magnius in the respect of ''black background''?
Thanks

 

[sajunky]

The first time I experienced that black background was on Astell & Kern SR35 DAP. That somehow separates it from the rest. With that, everything was raised on the next level, everything sounds better on the black background. I would say it is the blackness between the instruments - like the notes appear from nowhere and then disappears back in the same 'abyss', or simply as you said: ''to render notes out of nothingness''. I still do not know what that actually is. I suppose it is not just low background noise, but together with it maybe fast transients, high clarity/definition, great micro-dynamics,...I do not know. Above all, I do not know if it is due to DAC or AMP, or both together (combination)...?

I agree, it must be a combination of R2R DAC and class A non-feedback output stage. This is because during fast transients there is no loss in microdynamics.

R2R-11 is a discrete NOS ladder DAC, in my experience with oversampled material this 'blackness' is little lost. SR35 has four Cirrus Logic's CS43198 chips. This DAC chip sounds different to the mainstream ESS or "velvet sound" AKM chips, possibly using less intensive noise shaping which has to be deployed in Delta Sigma decoders. It can't beat R2R DAC on blackness, but perhaps gives some taste. Noise shaping give a smoothed sound on a cost of microdynamics. Most of people prefer smoothed sound, especially those who listen to modern computer generated music.

CS43198 is popular in portable equipment (DAPs and USB dongles) due to the low power consumption, but more blackness will be preserved with proper amplification mentioned before. However finding no-opamp output design in the portable range below $1K is difficult.

At this point I am prone to think this black background impression is born mostly out of fast transients in the amplifier. I noticed people usually link black background to the background noise (hissing sound), but here we are not talking about it, so no bat's ears are needed for that to be noticed

Yes, definitely.

 

[m-i-c-k-e-y]

Maybe need to invest in a power conditioner. Say a Puritan PSM156.

 

[jjss]

Verbalizing sound is always a challenge! So when you say "dark/silent/black", are you also referring to some kind of sound purity/cleanliness, so much so that you could hear much more of the refinement of sound/music reproduced? If you are talking about such a perceptual listening experience then yes I can relate to it as this is also the kind of sound that I'm after. One defining characteristic of knowing the presence of such black background is that you don't have to turn the volume to your regular listening level and the resultant loudness is very adequate and satisfying! What comes with such a black background is what I call a refinement in sound reproduction - refinement of sound in space, refinement of loudness in dynamics and refinement of tonality in nuance! More weight, dynamic, slam, drive… bigger, faster. Transparency and resolution are above what I heard on setups that are less "dark"!

 

[sajunky]

Verbalizing sound is always a challenge! So when you say "dark/silent/black", are you also referring to some kind of sound purity/cleanliness, so much so that you could hear much more of the refinement of sound/music reproduced? If you are talking about such a perceptual listening experience then yes I can relate to it as this is also the kind of sound that I'm after. One defining characteristic of knowing the presence of such black background is that you don't have to turn the volume to your regular listening level and the resultant loudness is very adequate and satisfying! What comes with such a black background is what I call a refinement in sound reproduction - refinement of sound in space, refinement of loudness in dynamics and refinement of tonality in nuance! More weight, dynamic, slam, drive… bigger, faster. Transparency and resolution are above what I heard on setups that are less "dark"!

Purity/cleanlines can be overall or just reserved to a dominant tone. A first one is improved with power conditioner. Once it is done you can better recognise difference between overall purity and purity of a dominant tone.

I think you are looking for a sound where the cleanlines of the dominant tone do not mask what is happening in a background, so you don't need to crank a volume to be satisfied with low level details. Good characteristics completing definition of a black background.

 

[jjss]

Purity/cleanlines can be overall or just reserved to a dominant tone. A first one is improved with power conditioner. Once it is done you can better recognise difference between overall purity and purity of a dominant tone.

I think you are looking for a sound where the cleanlines of the dominant tone do not mask what is happening in a background, so you don't need to crank a volume to be satisfied with low level details. Good characteristics completing definition of a black background.

I'm not sure in my case if this is predominantly to do with masking and dominant note although these 2 do have a bearing on enhanced sound refinements as a result of a black background. Agree that good power management makes a lot of diff. I've also done "experimental" setup thats uses ground boxes, in fact quite a few of them in one setup, that the result is surprising, surprisingly good, reproducing sound that's very very very transparently and yet musical! I don't mind listening to such kind sound for life!

 

[Strale]

Yes, cleanliness and high level of detail is completing a definition of a black background. You can really follow all individual instruments and low level details in the background like you have several drivers in your headphones. But it is never aggressive, bright, harsh...a contrary - it is doing all that very politely, with rounded edges. That is the point, black background should not be mixed up with bright sounding devices which are trying to raise the level of details by reducing bass and emphasizing high tones, ending up in fatiguing sound.