Question about studio monitoring/mixing

[kool bubba ice]

You can find one. Just search the DT48e. I have over 30 pics in my 'club' or whatever it's called. But the FR is only for the DT48a.. All DT48A get their own personalized FR when purchased, much like the HD800.. But seem to vary a little bit.. They do have a generic DT48e FR graph on Beyers site, but not sure how they were measured. From what I understand the A models have a more of a high roll off.. To be fair, the DT48a was never made for studio work, only the E models..
 
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I would like to see a frequency graph of the DT48...interesting.  
and i have a question...is there a reason why they mostly use closed headphones type for mixing and such?  is that to isolate from outside noises? 

Why is it a illusion that a headphone can not be neutral or 'flat'. I'm speaking beyond the DT48 & including other headphones.. As long as we can measure flatness/neutrality, I don't see the bickering.. The DT48e is made for monitoring, not necessary mixing, but is feasible.
If we base neutrality base on opinion, we might as well get in a circle & hit the person next to eachother.. the DT48 is 'to bass lite to be neutral.' 'wheres the sub bass.' etc.. & I'd ask Erik himself.. No one on this board can express themselves as well as Erik.
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Let me put in my two cents of knowledge on a couple of the headphones discussed in this thread that I own (apart from the recently acquired 25 ohms DT48 that I haven't had a chance to listen to properly yet).
 
The 80 ohm Beyer DT 250 has a completely different frequency response than the TR50P - more bass and treble, to put it simply, less mid impact. The Fostex is a strange animal. In some music highly coloured (pure voices, try male radio pre presenters, piano, orchestral music; a definitive honkiness), less obviously so in artificial - or maybe "creative" is a better description? - studio recordings where some of its qualities may shine through. The veil is there, nevertheless, and it bothers me. Depending on mood, though, I enjoy both of them every now and then.
 
The thought of a "neutral" sounding pair of headphones is an illusion, alas, just like the perfect monitor speaker (different ears, rooms and side equipment goes into the equation). One can avoid the worst types of distorsion (both harmonic, balance-induced or dynamic) but in the end you have to trust your ears and experience.
 
A bassy heavy headphone may sound great, like one with prominent treble. But the one results in a bass-shy mix, the other in a dull one. Listening for pleasure is indeed different than listening professionally.
 
Finally a question for Uncle Eric: do the 240DF qualify for the illustrious group quoted by Mr "Kool Bubba Ice"?

The 50's NAGRA DT48S will make any dynamic headphone sound colored. I owned almost 20 headphones, not including my hoard of DT48's.. & yes, they even make my new DT48e sound a bit colored to the point I question their neutrality..
 
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In regards to the first sentence above: YES indeed, I found that out the hard way! I tried like a half dozen so called 'neutral'/flat studio monitors in the past, and most sound very different from one another....some have much less bass...others are over the top...some have a lot more highs, etc. People tell me the same thing about speakers. Even the reviewers who are often very knowledgeable and experienced will often disagree totally on whether a so-called monitor headphone is 'neutral' or not.  Take the sony v6 for example. Some people swear by it as a neutral studio monitor. Others, self included, find it anything but neutral. (I'm using the 240DF as reference). For now I'm putting my money on the 240DF...and hopefully will get to try the dt48 in future.

 

[Acix]

 
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aha..
 

 
These akg's are far from being accurate. And what, flat??? Sorry, no way.
 
 
 
 
 
 
I recommend to use headphones for monitoring / controlling purposes.

 
 
You'll need to get some experience with the AKG's in the studio before you tell me if they are accurate or flat.
 

 

[xnor]

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You'll need to get some experience with the AKG's in the studio before you tell me if they are accurate or flat.

Actually, the balance doesn't matter too much in a studio*, but nasty resonances do. 

 (see peaks/dips in the graph above, throughout the entire audio range! I have yet to find another headphone like that...)
 
And it might also be a good idea to have some ibuds and stuff like that lying around, after all you want your mix to sound well on about any system.
 
*) you get used to your equip, or use an EQ to correct the balance until you're satisfied with it (but you cannot "cure" resonances)

 

[MDR30]

Normally I leave people to tend to their own education, but let me make an exception. Ignorance is the first step to learning – if you think you’re perfect or an adherent to perfect truths you’ve stopped your own possibilities to becoming a wiser or better human being… or headphone listener.
 
Sound reproduction is an effect of air getting thinner or denser, radiation as opposed to beaming. A closed chamber compromises the membrane’s movement on one side of the diaphragm, and thus induces distortion. Loudspeakers are typical compromises, like headphones. Peter Walker’s electrostatic designs were pure scientific solutions to these problems, but even they were non-perfect, although impressive (a loudspeaker membrane in a wall with free movement on either side and no interfering should do the trick). A moving membrane with equal mechanical impedance on both sides is the ideal – otherwise you get a dynamic distortion. In headphones we have the eardrum on one side, and a closed chamber or “open air” on the other side.  If the electromechanical motor is strong enough (think Tesla or better) these compromises are diminished, but every effort to sideline these obstacles are only aural make-up (attentive ears always realise that something is wrong after a while).
 
A ”flat” or ”neutral” response (layman terms) is a simplification of conditions – a sinus wave’s loudness in different frequencies has nothing to do with music where dynamic differences, obvious in spectrum analysis – create our perceived listening experience.
 
So it’s not strange that an open design with strong electromechanical motor and light diaphragm – good electrostatics, neodymium dynamics or orthodynamic planars - sound best. But the ultimate solution, with no physical crossfeed, demands that we have a wall between the left and right ear. And that’s quite unpractical...
 
So a DT48, damped orthodynamic or semi-open dynamic can never be “realistic” visavi the sound source. But if cleverly designed, they fool us to think so. And that is, in many ways, good enough.

 

[plonter]

so the DT48e is the most neutral,balanced headphones?  if not..what is the most neutral one up to 300$?  not matter open or closed.

 

[kwkarth]

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The second part of my reply, well, is just general pondering.

No worries man.  Text has a lot of shortcomings.  Sorry I wasn't more clear.
k

 

[Acix]

 
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Actually, the balance doesn't matter too much in a studio*, but nasty resonances do. 

 (see peaks/dips in the graph above, throughout the entire audio range! I have yet to find another headphone like that...)
 
And it might also be a good idea to have some ibuds and stuff like that lying around, after all you want your mix to sound well on about any system.
 
*) you get used to your equip, or use an EQ to correct the balance until you're satisfied with it (but you cannot "cure" resonances)

lol, I hope you don't mix only by the graph.

 

[rhythmdevils]

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lol, I hope you don't mix only by the graph.

interesting.  You have quite frequently posted graphs to backup your claims about all kinds of headphones being inferior to the K701.  Now someone posts a graph to backup faults of the K701, and you say graphs aren't useful. 
 
 

 
Have you heard the T1 or LCD-2 yet Acix?  They're definitely on my list of things to hear next meet.

 

[Acix]

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so the DT48e is the most neutral,balanced headphones?  if not..what is the most neutral one up to 300$?  not matter open or closed.

DT-48S ( the S series sound more balanced than the E series).
Pioneer monitor 10. ( flat with a great balanced ).
K-1000 (are one of the best way's to get natural flat and balanced sound).
Fostex T-20v2 (sorry kwkarth, no experience with the 50rp ).
HD-600 ( nice and flat... just a little claustrophobic,and no sound stage allowed ).
K-240DF (one of my favorite vintage, as well the Sansui SS-35).
 

 

[Acix]

 
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interesting.  You have quite frequently posted graphs to backup your claims about all kinds of headphones being inferior to the K701.  Now someone posts a graph to backup faults of the K701, and you say graphs aren't useful. 
 
 

 
Have you heard the T1 or LCD-2 yet Acix?  They're definitely on my list of things to hear next meet.

 
The graphs are only half of the story. there is more to it, as MDR30 saiddd.
 
Yes, I'm interested to listen to the T1, LCD-2, as well to the JH-16Pro and the new Fostex series.
 

 

 

[rhythmdevils]

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The graphs are only half of the story. there is more to it, as MDR30 saiddd.
 
Yes, I'm interested to listen to the T1, LCD-2, as well to the JH-16Pro and the new Fostex series.
 

Time for a bay area meet!!!!!!!

 

[plonter]

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Time for a bay area meet!!!!!!!

count me in! 

  well..isn't i allowd to dream?

 

[rhythmdevils]

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count me in! 

  well..isn't i allowd to dream

you're more than welcome!  they're usually at hotels near an airport

 

[plonter]

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you're more than welcome!  they're usually at hotels near an airport

I may surprise you...i don't have a problem showing up as long as it's not in turkey!

sorry..just a little joke,couldn't help myself.

 

[Acix]

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Time for a bay area meet!!!!!!!

Hehehe, any time is a good time for bay area meet!