Question about studio monitoring/mixing

[kool bubba ice]

Interesting perspective.
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Normally I leave people to tend to their own education, but let me make an exception. Ignorance is the first step to learning – if you think you’re perfect or an adherent to perfect truths you’ve stopped your own possibilities to becoming a wiser or better human being… or headphone listener.
 
Sound reproduction is an effect of air getting thinner or denser, radiation as opposed to beaming. A closed chamber compromises the membrane’s movement on one side of the diaphragm, and thus induces distortion. Loudspeakers are typical compromises, like headphones. Peter Walker’s electrostatic designs were pure scientific solutions to these problems, but even they were non-perfect, although impressive (a loudspeaker membrane in a wall with free movement on either side and no interfering should do the trick). A moving membrane with equal mechanical impedance on both sides is the ideal – otherwise you get a dynamic distortion. In headphones we have the eardrum on one side, and a closed chamber or “open air” on the other side.  If the electromechanical motor is strong enough (think Tesla or better) these compromises are diminished, but every effort to sideline these obstacles are only aural make-up (attentive ears always realize that something is wrong after a while).
 
A ”flat” or ”neutral” response (layman terms) is a simplification of conditions – a sinus wave’s loudness in different frequencies has nothing to do with music where dynamic differences, obvious in spectrum analysis – create our perceived listening experience.
 
So it’s not strange that an open design with strong electromechanical motor and light diaphragm – good electrostatics, neodymium dynamics or orthodynamic planars - sound best. But the ultimate solution, with no physical crossfeed, demands that we have a wall between the left and right ear. And that’s quite unpractical...
 
So a DT48, damped orthodynamic or semi-open dynamic can never be “realistic” visavi the sound source. But if cleverly designed, they fool us to think so. And that is, in many ways, good enough.

I know one of the main reasons Uncle Erik bought the HD800 (Yes, I have the exact quote) was because their neutrality/transparency sounded like his DT48e.. So they go well beyond your price point. They are very balanced. Think of music as a puzzle.. The DT48 puts all the pieces together, & are the only headphone that I owned where nothing sticks out. Everything is on a even playing field. Pretty surreal actually. I find it very pleasing.. The SA5000 has very hot treble. The 701 has overly extended highs, & the Denons offer over bearing bass.. Each of these sonic attributes stick out. Not saying it's a bad thing. It's preference. Sometimes I like very hot treble & extended highs to the max, with the DT48 you don't get that, so many see them as boring & not being fun.. It's another reason why I want another headphone with a heavy treble & high emphasis..
 
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so the DT48e is the most neutral,balanced headphones?  if not..what is the most neutral one up to 300$?  not matter open or closed.

I can vouch for the DT48S. I think ACIX has the NAGRA, if not, I will let him hear mine sometime so we can compare. To put sound into words.. The NAGRA DT48S is like viewing in black/white... Void of any color..NONE. Extremely clear & clean. I think of STAX clarity when listening to them.. I never heard a electro, but I imagine the high level of clarity to what I would interpret as STAX like.. & if the STAX are noticeably more clear.. I must ask myself why I'm wasting my time with dynamics.
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DT-48S ( the S series sound more balanced than the E series).
Pioneer monitor 10. ( flat with a great balanced ).
K-1000 (are one of the best way's to get natural flat and balanced sound).
Fostex T-20v2 (sorry kwkarth, no experience with the 50rp ).
HD-600 ( nice and flat... just a little claustrophobic,and no sound stage allowed ).
K-240DF (one of my favorite vintage, as well the Sansui SS-35).
 

Sounds good if it's on a Sunday & close to home.. Just to warm you.. The oppo83 SE/Gold point/DT48 sound a bit dry & can sound overly analytical. My modded BC2 remedies this, along with uasing the newer DT48e models.. I would bring my 1950's NAGRA DT48S with APS V3 recable & my 08 DT48e model, so you can hear the differences.. Very noticeable to my ears.
 
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Time for a bay area meet!!!!!!!

 

[xnor]

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lol, I hope you don't mix only by the graph.

What? That doesn't make sense. Are you at a loss of words?

 

[kool bubba ice]

ACIX was also nice enough to give me a DT48 carrying case... Great guy!!
 
Check this link.. Go through the pics.. I have one showing a FR of the DT48A.. Like the HD800 each  DT48A headphone comes with one, & can slightly vary from headphone to headphone. Not sure how they were measured.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/lists/display/view/id/28456

 

[plonter]

but i heard that the DT48 rolls off the bass and only 100% neutral from a certain frequency and up.  is that true?

 

[Acix]

You work hard KBI...you deserve it!
 
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ACIX was also nice enough to give me a DT48 carrying case... Great guy!!
 

 

[kool bubba ice]

The bass roll off is similar to that of the 501 but rolls off a bit quicker. I had the numbers. It might be on the first page in the long, long, long, DT48 thread.. The bass is also neutral, meaning no bass boost or mid bass hump, etc.. This was done to evaluate the bass as it was recorded & as accurately as possible. Drums, especially bongo drums sound very authentic. The DT48 doesn't try to emulate a subwoofer, so you won't have deep bass.. The DT48 sound like headphones.. This was done on purpose. The DT48 bass is detailed, nicely textured, very fast & snappy.. It's full sounding but 'lacks in quantity.' If people think a headphone that rolls off can't be neutral need to speak to the Beyer engineers & NAGRA which endorses DT48 for recording & monitoring purposes..
 
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but i heard that the DT48 rolls off the bass and only 100% neutral from a certain frequency and up.  is that true?

 

[plonter]

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The bass roll off is similar to that of the 501 but rolls off a bit quicker. I had the numbers. It might be on the first page in the long, long, long, DT48 thread.. The bass is also neutral, meaning no bass boost or mid bass hump, etc.. This was done to evaluate the bass as it was recorded & as accurately as possible. Drums, especially bongo drums sound very authentic. The DT48 doesn't try to emulate a subwoofer, so you won't have deep bass.. The DT48 sound like headphones.. This was done on purpose. The DT48 bass is detailed, nicely textured, very fast & snappy.. It's full sounding but 'lacks in quantity.' If people think a headphone that rolls off can't be neutral need to speak to the Beyer engineers & NAGRA which endorses DT48 for recording & monitoring purposes..
 

 

it seems nice to have a pair of these around for critical listenin sessions. I assume they are not easy to find?  
another question..  if the bass rolls of at certain point,that how they can be "neutral"?  i mean.. i know that bassy presentation is usually not a part of "flat" neutral frequency respons,but if a certain frequency is in the recording than it should be heard by the headphone and not be rolled off.  can you say from what frequency exactly the DT48 starts to roll off in the bass?
 

 

[kool bubba ice]

We really need to get together for a mini meet or something.. If the meet is small I will bring 4-5 of my DT48 plus my oppo & Gold point amp... I still believe the 702 will be a much better fit for the oppo then my DT48.. It gets for a wide & deep sound stage.. Just needs to happen on a Sunday & within 30 miles.. Rhyme devil is also more then welcome.. I heard nothing but great things about Fostex.. & ACID could bring his studio monitors.. APS should be shipping my NAGRA's today or next week.. He said the ohms were way off.. One channel was like 10,000 ohms!! I really didn't get it.. They sounded find when the sound went dead.. But he fixed them.. He is a true wonder..What he did to the R10 was nothing short of AMAZING, after what Jenna labs did to them.. Plus charging 1,000 or 1,500 for a freakin re cable. Criminal.. Wow.. Off topic.!!
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You work hard KBI...you deserve it!
 

 

[kool bubba ice]

Smarter people then I can do a better job at answering that question. Some feel you need to add a certain amount of emphasis in order for the bass to be neutral. (ala sub bass) I just know from the graphs I seen they measure flat.. & know a few headfiers who owns the HP1/2/K1000/240DF/DT48 & claim them to all being neutral despite the fact that each vary in terms of bass.. I think Beyers wanted a bass without any emphasis to hear the bass as it is, without adding anything to it.. Like you alluded to, critical listening in a controlled environment. The type of bass you get totally depends on the recording.. If a song has deep bass you will hear it.. That to me is a neutral headphone.. Like a chamelon, the bass will depend on the song, unlike headphones like the D5000 or 650 where bass will always be present regardless.. Even with Jazz & classical which I find annoying..
 
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it seems nice to have a pair of these around for critical listenin sessions. I assume they are not easy to find?  
another question..  if the bass rolls of at certain point,that how they can be "neutral"?  i mean.. i know that bassy presentation is usually not a part of "flat" neutral frequency respons,but if a certain frequency is in the recording than it should be heard by the headphone and not be rolled off.  can you say from what frequency exactly the DT48 starts to roll off in the bass?
 

 

[plonter]

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Smarter people then I can do a better job at answering that question. Some feel you need to add a certain amount of emphasis in order for the bass to be neutral. (ala sub bass) I just know from the graphs I seen they measure flat.. & know a few headfiers who owns the HP1/2/K1000/240DF/DT48 & claim them to all being neutral despite the fact that each vary in terms of bass.. I think Beyers wanted a bass without any emphasis to hear the bass as it is, without adding anything to it.. Like you alluded to, critical listening in a controlled environment. The type of bass you get totally depends on the recording.. If a song has deep bass you will hear it.. That to me is a neutral headphone.. Like a chamelon, the bass will depend on the song, unlike headphones like the D5000 or 650 where bass will always be present regardless.. Even with Jazz & classical which I find annoying..
 

 

thanks for the explanation bubba.  to finalize it up..will the DT48 play a 20-30 hrz tones if needed?    maybe i  will look for a pair myself. can they be bought from the  beyer's site?
 
EDIT: i just looked at beyer site and i found only the DT48e version.  it seems that they have a 25 and 200ohm versions?  which is better?

 

[kool bubba ice]

I never tested them.. I know Shamu & a few others have. I would get in touch with them. The Beyer website doesn't sell them themselves.. & give no option to use their manufactuer function where you can customize various Beyer headphones.. I would recommend the new DT48e 25ohm in your case. They sound more conventional with a better bass response. I would also try to buy used, or audition them.. They are very polarizing. & I don't want you spending 200-300 on a gamble..
 
On a side note. I love your country.
 
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thanks for the explanation bubba.  to finalize it up..will the DT48 play a 20-30 hrz tones if needed?    maybe i  will look for a pair myself. can they be bought from the  beyer's site?

 

[kool bubba ice]

 

[plonter]

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I never tested them.. I know Shamu & a few others have. I would get in touch with them. The Beyer website doesn't sell them themselves.. & give no option to use their manufactuer function where you can customize various Beyer headphones.. I would recommend the new DT48e 25ohm in your case. They sound more conventional with a better bass response. I would also try to buy used, or audition them.. They are very polarizing. & I don't want you spending 200-300 on a gamble..
 
On a side note. I love your country.
 

 

thanks for the advice bubba,if i will get a DT48 it will be the e48 version.  I  will try to track a used one.     and nice to hear your last comment

 

[kool bubba ice]

Good luck.. Just be persistent, & check ebay frequently.. Make sure they are the new models. (I usually recommend vintage, but in your case I feel the model will fit you better. Just a 'feeling.') I think your amp will really inject some life into them, & will be a good match.. If I come find a pair I'll let you know.. Even if you don't like them, you can make your money back.. If you do get a pair listen to music with varying degrees of bass to see how they react. When I heard the song it's going down, I couldn't believe how deep the bass was on my DT48.. I never experienced it before.

 

[plonter]

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Good luck.. Just be persistent, & check ebay frequently.. Make sure they are the new models. (I usually recommend vintage, but in your case I feel the model will fit you better. Just a 'feeling.') I think your amp will really inject some life into them, & will be a good match.. If I come find a pair I'll let you know.. Even if you don't like them, you can make your money back.. If you do get a pair listen to music with varying degrees of bass to see how they react. When I heard the song it's going down, I couldn't believe how deep the bass was on my DT48.. I never experienced it before.

thanks..have you compared their bass to the HD800 or anything else that can go deep down? just interested.