[Benny-x]

So, I guess I'll be able to post my own reviews in here about what I think. I pulled the trigger on the SE Master-1s.
 
I'm still surprised there isn't more chatter in heard about them.

 

[Mortalcoil]

  So, I guess I'll be able to post my own reviews in here about what I think. I pulled the trigger on the SE Master-1s.
 
I'm still surprised there isn't more chatter in heard about them.

Regardless Benny-x congrats on the purchase.
 
Looking forward to your impressions....keep us posted

 

[IAMBLEST]

I can't trust any pioneer products from now on. In the last month I've had my pioneer elite bluray player and avr die after 14 months.

They are out of warranty and the pioneer service centre here says they won't repair them as they are "too old" and they don't carry the parts.

 

[Sopp]

I have SE-MASTER1 and Pulse Infinity 2.0. Honestly this combo does not impress me if no dedicated amp is in the chain. MASTER1 sounds much better with GS-X mk2 and ECP Black Diamond than the headphone output of the Infinity.
 

 

[plakat]

  So, I guess I'll be able to post my own reviews in here about what I think. I pulled the trigger on the SE Master-1s.
 
I'm still surprised there isn't more chatter in heard about them.

 
I'm surprised by that myself, but it may have something to do with them just trickling out of Pioneers manufacturing...
 

  I have SE-MASTER1 and Pulse Infinity 2.0. Honestly this combo does not impress me if no dedicated amp is in the chain. MASTER1 sounds much better with GS-X mk2 and ECP Black Diamond than the headphone output of the Infinity.

 
Somehow the Master-1 seems to not like any amp... I use a Benchmark DAC2 for most of my listening -- except for the Master-1, which simply does not pair well with it. I like the Master-1 much more with the Pioneer U-05 (balanced).

 

[Benny-x]

  I have SE-MASTER1 and Pulse Infinity 2.0. Honestly this combo does not impress me if no dedicated amp is in the chain. MASTER1 sounds much better with GS-X mk2 and ECP Black Diamond than the headphone output of the Infinity.
 

What were the chances of that? I've got the Infinity 2,0 and have the SE Master1 coming soon. 
 
I've also figured the internal amp on the Infinity doesn't have a lot of magic, though. I'm going to try its DAC section only for the wfirst time over the coming weeks. What kind of changes can I expect like you heard with the GS-X Mk2 combo? And have you tried the GS-X Mk2 with any better matching DACs?
 
In the end, what's your impression of the Pioneer? Try it with some tubes too?

 

[Benny-x]

 
Somehow the Master-1 seems to not like any amp... I use a Benchmark DAC2 for most of my listening -- except for the Master-1, which simply does not pair well with it. I like the Master-1 much more with the Pioneer U-05 (balanced).

That's really interesting to hear as most of the posts I read about it said that pairing was not the best sounding, some even went so far as so say the U-05 was a disservice to the SEM1. That's good that you like it, just trying to figure it out.
 
Have you tried them on anything else? Will you have a chance to in the near future?
 
When I get mine I'll also give them a shot DAC direct off my PWD MkII since it's got an inbuilt pre-amp. Those I've also got a bunch of other combos for it too...

 

[plakat]

  That's really interesting to hear as most of the posts I read about it said that pairing was not the best sounding, some even went so far as so say the U-05 was a disservice to the SEM1. That's good that you like it, just trying to figure it out.
 
Have you tried them on anything else? Will you have a chance to in the near future?
 
When I get mine I'll also give them a shot DAC direct off my PWD MkII since it's got an inbuilt pre-amp. Those I've also got a bunch of other combos for it too...

I know that many do not like the U-05. I suspect at least part of the resentment comes from the difference in price though. Another point: it seems that the Pioneers single-ended circuit is a rather simple chip-based solution while the balanced part seems to be a better implementation. I did not check if thats true though.
In general I try to figure out how the makers wanted their headphone to sound, i.e. combine it with the amp the manufacturer offers.
 
I did try the Master-1 with my V281, which is a nice combination as well. I also like it out of the HDVD800, did not check with the Phonitor 2 (not enough space on my desk, the Phonitor got banned to reside on a shelf).
 
I'll try with the Mojo and the PHA-3 as well as the AK320+Amp, but did not get around that due to a lack of spare time... Overall I try to use a combination for longer, not just crosschecking for differences: whats important to me in the end is wether I can have fun with a set, taking into account the getting-used-to factor.

 

[Benny-x]

 
I know that many do not like the U-05. I suspect at least part of the resentment comes from the difference in price though. Another point: it seems that the Pioneers single-ended circuit is a rather simple chip-based solution while the balanced part seems to be a better implementation. I did not check if thats true though.
In general I try to figure out how the makers wanted their headphone to sound, i.e. combine it with the amp the manufacturer offers.
 
I did try the Master-1 with my V281, which is a nice combination as well. I also like it out of the HDVD800, did not check with the Phonitor 2 (not enough space on my desk, the Phonitor got banned to reside on a shelf).
 
I'll try with the Mojo and the PHA-3 as well as the AK320+Amp, but did not get around that due to a lack of spare time... Overall I try to use a combination for longer, not just crosschecking for differences: whats important to me in the end is wether I can have fun with a set, taking into account the getting-used-to factor.

 
Thanks for the great response, plakat! 
 
I've never thought about it, but I agree that testing the components as the engineers and designers wished they'd be combined should certainly be on anyone's list. Even just to have an idea of what the "whole sound" they were shooting for was. I'm not saying that's what people should strive to own, but at least trying to have a listen of it is a good idea.
 
With that though I do see one problem. Any person(engineer) is going to have their own biases, so lumping all those together is likely to compound on them vs. finding the balanced ground/sound someone is wanting to hear. If you get lucky and their sound aligns with yours then it'd be a match made in heaven, otherwise I'd imagine it to be limiting somehow. I like hybrids, the whole best of both worlds kind of stuff. Blah, blah, blah~
 
In this particular case, I agree that the $7-800USD the U-05 goes for as a total DAC+amp combo vs. the headphone only price of $2700USD of the SEM1 has a lot to do with people's feelings about the combo. Mine too  I'll see if I can try it some time, but I don't think I'll be going too, too far out of my way to find out. Even the Oppo HA-1 is a bit pricier than that, and Oppo has some seriously large economies of scale to play with... I shouldn't be judging a book by it's cover though, right?
 
And about your comparisons, you're a lucky man to have such gear on hand to compare with. I've always wanted to try that unfortunate Phonitor 2 that' you've related to the shelf wasteland. I'm still trying to find a good amp for pairing with extremely efficient headphones like the Denon D7000, Fostex TH900, any Audio Technica, or now these Pioneers. One that I read was a good match with many of this type, but only single ended (the bain of my existence), was Sugden Headmaster. What experience do you have with this category of headphones and amping them?
 
I agree that living with a component for some time is a SIGNIFICANTLY better way of testing its abilities and whether it's an "upgrade" for you vs. A/B'ing it with other things. I don't think A/B'ing ever puts you in the right mood to get comfortable and have your mind in the right state to feel the music. It just puts you in analysis mode. Sure there's pros and cons to both ways, but I wouldn't limit myself to quick A/B'ing when considering keeping a piece of gear vs. not. 

 

[Benny-x]

I'm still trying to find a good amp for pairing with extremely efficient headphones like the Denon D7000, Fostex TH900, any Audio Technica, or now these Pioneers. One that I read was a good match with many of this type, but only single ended (the bain of my existence), was Sugden Headmaster. What experience do you have with this category of headphones and amping them?

 
Upon checking, the Pioneers are less efficient than I though, which may lead to a bigger cross section of happy amps.
 
Denon D7000:
sensitivity: 108 db/mW
max input: 1800 mW
impedance: 25Ω
 
Fostex Th900:
sensitivity: 108 db/mW
max input: 1800 mW
impedance: 25Ω
 
Pioneer SE Master1:
sensitivity: 94 db/mW
max input: 1500 mW
impedance: 45Ω

 

[plakat]

   
Thanks for the great response, plakat! 
 
I've never thought about it, but I agree that testing the components as the engineers and designers wished they'd be combined should certainly be on anyone's list. Even just to have an idea of what the "whole sound" they were shooting for was. I'm not saying that's what people should strive to own, but at least trying to have a listen of it is a good idea.
 
With that though I do see one problem. Any person(engineer) is going to have their own biases, so lumping all those together is likely to compound on them vs. finding the balanced ground/sound someone is wanting to hear. If you get lucky and their sound aligns with yours then it'd be a match made in heaven, otherwise I'd imagine it to be limiting somehow. I like hybrids, the whole best of both worlds kind of stuff. Blah, blah, blah~
 
In this particular case, I agree that the $7-800USD the U-05 goes for as a total DAC+amp combo vs. the headphone only price of $2700USD of the SEM1 has a lot to do with people's feelings about the combo. Mine too  I'll see if I can try it some time, but I don't think I'll be going too, too far out of my way to find out. Even the Oppo HA-1 is a bit pricier than that, and Oppo has some seriously large economies of scale to play with... I shouldn't be judging a book by it's cover though, right?
 
And about your comparisons, you're a lucky man to have such gear on hand to compare with. I've always wanted to try that unfortunate Phonitor 2 that' you've related to the shelf wasteland. I'm still trying to find a good amp for pairing with extremely efficient headphones like the Denon D7000, Fostex TH900, any Audio Technica, or now these Pioneers. One that I read was a good match with many of this type, but only single ended (the bain of my existence), was Sugden Headmaster. What experience do you have with this category of headphones and amping them?
 
I agree that living with a component for some time is a SIGNIFICANTLY better way of testing its abilities and whether it's an "upgrade" for you vs. A/B'ing it with other things. I don't think A/B'ing ever puts you in the right mood to get comfortable and have your mind in the right state to feel the music. It just puts you in analysis mode. Sure there's pros and cons to both ways, but I wouldn't limit myself to quick A/B'ing when considering keeping a piece of gear vs. not. 

Benny-x, thank you for your thoughts on this -- valid points in there. I'll try to comment in the above order:
 
No, you're of course right. I didn't want to suggest everyone should *buy* that combination. I think checking it out is worth it, but you may well like another combination better.
 
Which leads to the second point: In general I'd say a manufacturer big enough to offer a high end headphone *and* a matching DAC/Amp is not a small boutique qhere a single person decides, I'd expect a bigger company to have more people listen in and steer. I'd actually expect some kind of house sound (Fostex is an example of that, old AKG as well as Beyerdynamic, Sennheiser et. al.), but not a single persons taste. But that is speculation... see the case of the classic AKG K1000: it was done by 3 people. Who, on a sidepoint, I'm glad to know. The story around the Master-1 being manufactured by a single person may render my speculation invalid...
 
While I think it does not take a ****load of money to make a good DAC/Amp (see Schiit) I can understand the hesitation to pair a not so cheap headphone with a unit that is about 1/5th of its price. On the other hand Pioneer is not a small shop pushing labelled OEM electronics, I do expect it to be able to offer better prices based on economy of scale and existing infrastructure. And its build quality looks good to me, with some touches that remind me of classic Japanese audio gear. Nice.
 
I'm sorry for sounding boastful given the picture of a Phonitor banned to a shelf. See it more like my desktop is too small for my electronic ambitions. And I generally prefer compact all-in-one designs, with the Benchmark DAC2 being a prime example of: small, powerful, capable DAC, lots of i/o options. And single-ended btw. I'll try again with the Master-1 soon... I just like the DAC2 too much. It has damping jumpers internally, so it can be reconfigured for overly sensitive headphones.
 
Following the concept of getting complete systems I've mainly used the Fostex HP-A8 for my TH900. Nice combination as the A8 is a bit lean, matching perfectly with the rather big bass response of the TH900. Oh, did I mention that The A8 now lives on another shelf? I'm working on the issue of missing space though...
 
While personally I did not like the combination of the Fostex TH900/TH600 with the Violectric V281 (too much bass for my taste), both the V281 and the older V200 offer gain dip switches that allow to adjust for sensitive headphones (-6dB or -12dB). The V281 does fine with the Master-1 single-ended, so I guess the V200 should be OK as well.

 

[Benny-x]

  Which leads to the second point: In general I'd say a manufacturer big enough to offer a high end headphone *and* a matching DAC/Amp is not a small boutique where a single person decides, I'd expect a bigger company to have more people listen in and steer. I'd actually expect some kind of house sound (Fostex is an example of that, old AKG as well as Beyerdynamic, Sennheiser et. al.), but not a single persons taste. But that is speculation... see the case of the classic AKG K1000: it was done by 3 people. Who, on a side point, I'm glad to know. The story around the Master-1 being manufactured by a single person may render my speculation invalid...

I agree. I meant the "house sound" as opposed to an individual's single idea of sound like you get with custom makers. Haha, it wasn't a big point that I expected to hold a lot of water, I just meant that it's fun to try different combinations of gear, especially with the hope of finding some golden 'hybrid' combination  
 
And though the SEM1 might be made by 1 craftsman, I wasn't sure that I understood that to mean 1 old guy is making all of them or a group of old guys each take one complete headphone and assemble that whole unit themselves vs. having many people involved in the assembly at different stages. Either way, I also don't know if they'd be involved in the voicing as that was supposedly done and tuned at AIR Studios in London, by a different middle aged(not ancient) guy.
 
And as for the AKG thing, you know the 3 guys that lead the K1000 project...? Are they cool? Do they have like -The BEST- sets of K1000s made? As project leaders I'd bet they got some pretty good versions of them. And what did you mean vs. the current state of AKG? Do you really find them in much a different state than many of the other long history manufacturers? When you look at that part of the industry nowadays I always get sad compared to the state those companies were in in their hay days back in the mid '70s to early '90s :'-(
 

While I think it does not take a ****load of money to make a good DAC/Amp (see Schiit) I can understand the hesitation to pair a not so cheap headphone with a unit that is about 1/5th of its price. On the other hand Pioneer is not a small shop pushing labelled OEM electronics, I do expect it to be able to offer better prices based on economy of scale and existing infrastructure. And its build quality looks good to me, with some touches that remind me of classic Japanese audio gear. Nice.

I looked at some internal pictures of the U-05 afterward and you're very right, the construction layout and build quality seem to be fantastic. It does look like a well made unit and I also don't doubt Pioneer's ability in that regard. Versus Oppo, Oppo design their gear from the ground up and have a very well developed R&D backing for them. Pioneer has history and experience to play on, and being specifically focused in audio, but Oppo isn't new by any means. They also sit in the centre of technological advancement and have a lot of means at their disposal. That's all besides the point of Pioneer, though.
 
Especially now that they've been bought by Onkyo hopefully they will be able to share some good ideas and techniques. On that note, I do wonder how long those 2 brands can coexist and appeal to different customers and segments, though. The audio world is tough on those big companies now, like I was saying above, and I wouldn't be surprised is one of them got swallowed up by the other completely. I really wish there was something these companies could hit on again that was a fruitful market and good for customers. It'd make everyone happy.
 

  I'm sorry for sounding boastful given the picture of a Phonitor banned to a shelf. See it more like my desktop is too small for my electronic ambitions. And I generally prefer compact all-in-one designs, with the Benchmark DAC2 being a prime example of: small, powerful, capable DAC, lots of i/o options. And single-ended btw. I'll try again with the Master-1 soon... I just like the DAC2 too much. It has damping jumpers internally, so it can be reconfigured for overly sensitive headphones.

Haha, I didn't see it that way at all. I was getting a good laugh out of you banishing your certified quality gear to the shelf wasteland for whatever your completely biased reason was. I knew it wasn't going to be anything boastful, it sounded funny like you wrote it and I enjoyed it that way. I have already hit critical mass with my desktop space and started planning an equipment shelf. For now I have them spread across 3 audiophile, high quality kitchen chairs and on top of a top grade cardboard box inside of another cardboard box. I gave up on the idea of "desktop" components from the beginning, I always wanted too many for it to be practical. In my office I have a shelf, but not a banishment shelf like yours, which houses my DAC, amp, and headphones. 
 
The Benchmark DAC1 was the first audiophile worthy component that really got my mind turning about buying. The DAC2 is even better again. Unfortunately I was never in the right place at the right time to buy one, but it's reassuring to hear that you hold your DAC2 in such high regard. What's your position on the Mytek products? The 24/192 and the new Brooklyn seem to cover a similar market as the DAC2, but they have some further support for newer technology. 
 

  Following the concept of getting complete systems I've mainly used the Fostex HP-A8 for my TH900. Nice combination as the A8 is a bit lean, matching perfectly with the rather big bass response of the TH900. Oh, did I mention that The A8 now lives on another shelf? I'm working on the issue of missing space though...
 
While personally I did not like the combination of the Fostex TH900/TH600 with the Violectric V281 (too much bass for my taste), both the V281 and the older V200 offer gain dip switches that allow to adjust for sensitive headphones (-6dB or -12dB). The V281 does fine with the Master-1 single-ended, so I guess the V200 should be OK as well.

Haha, you almost seem to enjoy relegating your underlings to various unfortunate places. If you don't start to get that under control you may have a mutiny on your hands...
 
I didn't get the balanced cable with my SEM1, but I'm thinking I might open up the stock single ended cable and try to do it myself. Why haven't you tried your SEM1 like that? Your Phonitor 2, V281, and HDVD800 are all balanced. 
 
With the SEM1 I plan on trying it directly off my PWD MkII XLR outs as it has an internal preamp and I've recently read that a few guys really liked listening to their headphones directly off the balanced outputs of their DACs. Now that that's an idea I'm also going to try it off the outputs of my AMB a20 preamp and Phoenix in pre-amp mode. All in 2 months from now when I get back from my trip

 

[up late]

tyll's posted measurements...

 

[arnaud]

tyll's posted measurements...

Well, while not very promising, that's refreshing at least. Will be interesting to see if burning out will change anything.
I recall when I helped Tyll work on waterfall plots for the K-701 with 400 or so measurements taken between 0h and 400h of constant headphone running.
Differences were 1dB at best I recall, I'd be flabbergasted if the pioneer got back in shape after required running!
If it did, I'd then question sending sample to review magazine without running it in the first place.

 

[Kyle 491]

Nice to see my earlier comments/impressions are supported by measurement data. Terribad mids distortion, and bass distortion even worse than I suspected. Impulse response and 300hz square waves indicate a zingy, ringing mess with resonances everywhere. I'd like to see the CSDs of this.