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Out Of Your Head - new virtual surround simulator

Discussion in 'Computer Audio' started by project86, Nov 7, 2013.
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  1. edwardsean
    Recently I’ve had one of those marker experiences, you know, when your whole audio history flashes before your eyes. You remember your first Sony Walkman and the euphoria of discovering real audiophile gear to the present digital wonders. For me OOYH has been a big part of that “journey” scaling with all my refinements of taste and component upgrades. Each time OOYH enhanced those changes and in turn benefited, but something happened which just caused OOYH to take a dramatic leap forward.

    I’ve been experimenting with DSD512 resampling lately and have been marvelously impressed with the results in general, However, it affected OOYH in a way that just truly startled me. I started with real time conversion in Audirvana Plus, HQ player, Roon, etc. The problem is that you can’t feed this into OOYH because OOYH needs a 48Khz sample rate. So, I went to off line conversion, resampling after OOYH instead of before. I captured the direct output from the OOYH mixer using a virtual output (IShowU) and tracked this in Logic to a 24bit 48Khz wav (caf). I sliced up the results with Audacity and then upconverted to DSD512 using Xivero XiSRC or AuI Converter.

    What was a limitation of OOYH’s sample rate capability became a surprising benefit. What this process does is that it not only resamples the source audio at an exponentially higher rate, it resamples the effects of OOYH’s convolution. This, of course, isn’t the place to get into the raging debate over the merits of DSD. I can only tell you what I hear in my system, which is itself pretty pristine.

    I’ve always loved OOYH, but of course it has its deficiencies. I alway thought that, even if you find a good preset fit, which I have, there is still a hazy, diffuse quality to the sound. This is especially apparent in the vocals which are upfront and center and need to coalesce to be convincing. This was always an issue I overlooked because of everything else that OOYH brough to the table. I can only guess at the science, but subjectively, DSD resampling has resolved this for me. The resulting transparency, clarity, and coherency has caused OOYH to cross a threshold where it really approximates a boutique speaker system. As an added benefit you can take these files mobile on a DAP. For me that was always actually the goal.

    Resampling to DSD512 also has its downsides. For one you need to have a DAC that can handle native or DoP DSD512. Also, it takes enormous processing power over a long time and produces huge files (1 track = 1 - 3Gb). In the end, the success of this process will no doubt be heavily system dependent. It may be worth exploring though if you have a DSD512 capable DAC, especially because the cost of entry is low. Xivero XiSRC converter is less than $20 and Audacity and IShowU are free. For myself, after a long long road, the out of your head effect is finally complete and I just wanted to share.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
    Zenvota likes this.
  2. Zenvota
    Ah, this put a smile on my face, thank you and Happy New Year. Espacially after trying to share and discuss this program and the incredible realism of it when using hifi equipment and being responded to with a toms review that the realtek 889 built into a pc motherboard is indistinguishable from a Benchmark DAC. Really... thank you for sharing that sounds amazing.

    Thats insane. And i have over 30tbs of storage space, but I have that space because I like uncompressed files and know that a system capable of rendering it can make use of that data. I had read about dsd resampling at one point and it sounded interesting, but I didnt have the capability to experiment. Currently I'm using an older Audio-GD NFB-7 with an ES9018 from 2013, I upgraded the usb interface though so it may be able to do dsd. Probably not xD an extra incentive to upgrade to the newer nfb7 with dual es9038pro.

    I found digital and mains conditioning to do this as well in my system. The addition of the Uptone ISO Regen and LPS1.2(which powers the usb to i2s board as well, which also has an isolator on the i2s side), and a topaz 91092-31 ultra line noise isolator for the dac and headamp. This was one of those revelatory upgrades for me as well, which went from trying to use ooyh for music and finding something wanting, wondering do the amps needa heat up, is it the light dimmers in the house, the solar panels, does the program need to be restarted, to sounding really perfect, and it imparted such a shocking level of realism to the various presets.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
  3. edwardsean
    Thank you for sharing too! What a brother in OOYH. Definitely, it’s about the signal to noise, don’t you think? The difficulty that people have with DSD resampling is that they keep thinking that it’s a claim to add more information to the audio file when that’s obviously impossible. What DSD resampling does is allow you to better filter out the noise, which functionally, amounts to more perceived information. With your approach of digital and power conditioning, we’re on parallel tracks.
     
    Zenvota likes this.
  4. Zenvota
    The idea of upgrading my dac and using dsd resampling to further improve the performance of ooyh is truly elating and exciting, and I'm grateful lol

    I'm sure you've stated in this thread, but could you share what dac you use? I've also been considering which route to go in terms of the dual es9038 or a pcm1704uk, or some other r2r, lots of choices ;] i went with the nfb7 mostly because I found it used at a great price, but also due to the way it and other dacs were described it sounded like it might render ooyh better, but I dont think thats necessarily true. Espacially with what youre talking about with dsd capabilities.
     
  5. edwardsean
    I currently have a Chord Hugo and a Desktop SimAudio DAC, but where all of this ended up for me is actually an iBasso DX200. This was equally surprising to me as all the rest, but I can’t seem to improve on its performance for my LCDi4s. This is not a recommendation as I think you’re looking for a full desktop unit. However, for me, right now, everything is gathering dust including my Moon Neo430HAD, except the DX200. It is one of, if not the only, DAP that can currently decode native DSD512 with its dual 9028s and I’ve been just stunned as to its performance. This is very specific to me though. As Darin knows, my end goal was always to have a high end loud speaker system portable in the palm of my hand.
     
    Zenvota likes this.
  6. Zenvota
    That's really awesome though, using ooyh or ooyh rendered tracks with that setup. I've always been really fascinated by Audeze's in ear models but I've never had any luck with in ear fit, only those bose stayfit tips ;[

    In your case the dx200 is essentially the equivalent of isolating from any sources and ac mains, and the sensitive in ears are easier to drive the complex signal from the ooyh dsd track.

    I'm intrigued too, that in ears can provide the soundstage and thus virtual room size of over ears like the hd800.

    That actually does help in thats the kind of dac I'm drawn towards, dual es90xx, very simple circuits, using the digital filters in the dac chip.
    http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/NFB_7_77/NFB7.77EN.htm
    The "smaller" unit http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/D_77/D_77EN.htm
    And the version that doesnt tweak harmonics
    http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/AS1/AS1EN.htm

    I do want the desktop unit though as i split the signal for a bass shaker system, the chest hits I get using the Cello preset scare the crap out of me sometimes. In both movies and music, death metal digs deep
    (屮゜Д゜)屮
    The shaker system adds an extra layer of realism that I really enjoy, espacially after taking some extra steps to make sure it blended seamlessly and didn't effect the main system.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
  7. edwardsean
    That’s really interesting. I use the Cello preset too!

    I have Smyth A16 on preorder and when it arrives I’m going to start looking to into body shakers too, which one are you using?
     
  8. Zenvota
    Currently just the cheap daytons
    https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...ile-bass-shaker-transducer-20w-4-ohm--300-888

    They're zip tied to the frame of the chair and manage an even vibration everywhere on the chair, seat, backrest, arm rests, head pillow(if i put my ear on the pillow I can hear the bass lines like wearing headphones, pretty neat). And I made a detachable system with binding posts, dont know if its correct but it works.

    So after splitting the signal out of the dacs xlr, i send them through jensen isomax transformers since the dac and amp are on the isolation transformer.
    https://www.parts-express.com/jense...MI4fi4u77N3wIViSaGCh0j-Q-jEAQYAyABEgK2yvD_BwE

    Then into an equalizer to flatten out the response, the cheap shakers have some big peaks and valleys but its fixable.
    https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=615031

    Then a crossover
    https://www.parts-express.com/art-cx310-2-way-3-way-crossover--245-880

    Then a crappy cheap $10 stereo amp

    I got the crossover and eq used for $30 also, since it was an experiment i didnt want to spend alot, but it ended up working very well and i havent had tbe desire to upgrade anything yet. I was worried about putting all this budget gear in the signal chain but the isolation transformers seem to do the trick.

    There are of course, quality shakers that have a much more even response and better extension. And it may be possible to split the signal in the pc using voicemeter and virtual audio cable.
    https://www.parts-express.com/clark-synthesis-tst209-tactile-transducer-bass-shaker--300-861

    20190101_160059.jpg 20190101_160119.jpg
    20190101_173039.jpg 20190101_160142.jpg 20180924_134710.jpg 20180924_134612.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
  9. edwardsean
    I’m a bit reluctant to post this because this feels like such rarefied territory, but for what it’s worth, I do think what Zenvota and I have been discussing is on the right track.

    I had always assumed that the haziness of the OOYH effect was due to phase artifacts and the delta in HRTF. I figured that as long as I wasn’t using a custom preset that this diffuse quality would just be the price of admission to OOYH. I’m sure that is indeed a factor and that the true solution is to get a personalized IR for Darin to create a custom preset.

    However, Smyth users have along traded their personalized presets and Smyth is setting up a commercial exchange. Someone’s else’s preset can be effective for another user. Just to reiterate there is another main source of distortion of the OOYH effect that seems to be noise. Part of that diffuse haziness seems to be system noise (EMI, RFI, etc.)

    I’m becoming convinced of this because my current system is the most noise free system I’ve ever put together. Zenovata is right, being portable, I have no AC noise, no USB noise, and I’m also using active shielding on my cable. Most significantly, DSD512 has dramatically improved signal to noise. These enhancements, of course, improve SQ for all audio, but for me, the OOYH effect has responded with unique effectiveness.
     
    martyp87 and Zenvota like this.
  10. Zenvota
    Couldn't agree more. The improvements brought on by the conditioning, while noticeable, were not as dramatic when listening to stereo music over headphones. With OOYH, however, the improvements are dramatic. I can only assume it's due to the additional information from the binaural rendering and room reflections, compounding with any noise in the system, of which there are all types, and aren't necessarily an easily perceived noise floor. Personally I found it very interesting reading about the Uptone products(the ISO Regen and Ultracap LPS) and the ultra line noise suppressors, here and at Computer Audiophile.

    https://www.head-fi.org/threads/top...ansformers-for-affordably-clean-power.857448/

    https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...ed-from-quotlps-1-troubleshootingquot-thread/

    https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...mpressions-kicked-off-with-some-measurements/

    I understand it's marketing phoy to some, but I picked up the Topaz units for $30... hardly putting hard earned $ in a crook's hands, and the Uptone products have a 30 day return policy, plenty of time to decide if they're useful in your system or not.
     
  11. edwardsean
  12. Zenvota
    I also EQ all of my headphones to have a fairly flat response. This could just be a personal thing, but I find the 2-5khz bump in headphones to be overly accentuated when using OOYH. I listen to metal, so it could just be the distortion in the guitars, but I do prefer movies and other music(tested with 24/96 acoustic piano tracks, 24/192 5.1 violin concertos) with the same eq as well.
    Some examples:
    20180930_203733.jpg
    20190102_135450.jpg

    Looks like they'd sound horribly dark but treble still sparkles.

    I can't find the page, but something about the Realiser using a HPEQ or headphone eq
    "to invert the headphone response you plan to use so that you don't get a double HRTF (playing back PRIR without EQ over a headphone will sound harsh especially near 3 -5k)."
     
  13. martyp87
    The Smyth A16 demo video has me intrigued. $4k is steep but for hardware level virtualisation and being a DAC/Amp that isn't truly out of the realms of being a feasible purchase. I would definitely want to hear it in person first with different music types etc.

    With the iSines though, I have no qualms with OOYH as it has truly transformed them into something that I really love. Perhaps if I started to look into upgrading to the LCDi4s I would begin to seriously look into the A16s to really get the most out of them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  14. audiohobbit
    Hi Darin,

    would an USB audio interface like this one do the job: https://tascam.com/us/product/us-16x08/faq
    It has 8 analog line ins and can convert each of them to one ASIO channel (whatever that means...). So I decode DTS etc. with my AV-Receiver into 7.1 analog channels and feed them to this audio interface into the PC, then OOYH does its magic and outputs the 2ch processed headphone signal (also via the USB audio interface)?
    Do you mean this would work?
    If so, how do I tell OOYH which channel is L, C, R etc.?
     
  15. whazzup
    Hi Darin, just curious why there aren't more reviews of the software on tech / audio websites? Would have thought it would be pretty easy to send copies to the reviewers.
     
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