Out Of Your Head - new virtual surround simulator
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Dixter

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without searching the 74 pages for an answer that probably has been answered,

I would like to inquire as to when the software will be ported over to the iOS platform...

thanks in advance
 
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Zenvota

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Recently I’ve had one of those marker experiences, you know, when your whole audio history flashes before your eyes. You remember your first Sony Walkman and the euphoria of discovering real audiophile gear to the present digital wonders. For me OOYH has been a big part of that “journey” scaling with all my refinements of taste and component upgrades. Each time OOYH enhanced those changes and in turn benefited, but something happened which just caused OOYH to take a dramatic leap forward.

I’ve been experimenting with DSD512 resampling lately and have been marvelously impressed with the results in general, However, it affected OOYH in a way that just truly startled me. I started with real time conversion in Audirvana Plus, HQ player, Roon, etc. The problem is that you can’t feed this into OOYH because OOYH needs a 48Khz sample rate. So, I went to off line conversion, resampling after OOYH instead of before. I captured the direct output from the OOYH mixer using a virtual output (IShowU) and tracked this in Logic to a 24bit 48Khz wav (caf). I sliced up the results with Audacity and then upconverted to DSD512 using Xivero XiSRC or AuI Converter.

What was a limitation of OOYH’s sample rate capability became a surprising benefit. What this process does is that it not only resamples the source audio at an exponentially higher rate, it resamples the effects of OOYH’s convolution. This, of course, isn’t the place to get into the raging debate over the merits of DSD. I can only tell you what I hear in my system, which is itself pretty pristine.

I’ve always loved OOYH, but of course it has its deficiencies. I alway thought that, even if you find a good preset fit, which I have, there is still a hazy, diffuse quality to the sound. This is especially apparent in the vocals which are upfront and center and need to coalesce to be convincing. This was always an issue I overlooked because of everything else that OOYH brough to the table. I can only guess at the science, but subjectively, DSD resampling has resolved this for me. The resulting transparency, clarity, and coherency has caused OOYH to cross a threshold where it really approximates a boutique speaker system. As an added benefit you can take these files mobile on a DAP. For me that was always actually the goal.

Resampling to DSD512 also has its downsides. For one you need to have a DAC that can handle native or DoP DSD512. Also, it takes enormous processing power over a long time and produces huge files (1 track = 1 - 3Gb). In the end, the success of this process will no doubt be heavily system dependent. It may be worth exploring though if you have a DSD512 capable DAC, especially because the cost of entry is low. Xivero XiSRC converter is less than $20 and Audacity and IShowU are free. For myself, after a long long road, the out of your head effect is finally complete and I just wanted to share.
Got real time pcm to dsd512 conversion working with jriver. On an i3 8350k it takes 30% of total processing power O.o

So I'm in agreement with @edwardsean on this. Even on a nfb11 with hifiman he400i, what it does to the more reverberant room settings, like say the jmlab nova utopias, when listening to metal and watching action movies is just incredible, this was the last layer of hash that was preventing me from enjoying those presets with that material. With more relaxed music, solo instruments classical, synthy stuff, pink floyd, I could listen to on any preset, but my death and black metal not so much lol and even movies too. When I'd try to listen to those more reverberant room presets with that material it just never sounded great(in comparison not in general), hazeys a good description, it sounded neat, especially the jmlabs because its so far out in front, but I always found myself switching back to the Genelecs for fidelity. Everything was checked off system wise(an accurate inverse headphone eq, excellent planar transducers, excellent circuits, full isolation and conditioning) so I assumed it just wasn't a good fit(the music and the more reverberant room presets. But the complete naturalness/transparency/w.e you want to call it, of the virtualization after converting to dsd512 is downright spooky.

And of course just to be thorough, I turned it all off, went back to pcm, tried the same music on the jmlab utopias, and pfft switched back to the genelecs. With dsd512 for the first time when listening to metal on that preset I got lost in it. Every time before that and now after as well, even after forcing myself to listen for a few minutes and try to acclimate with the preset I could never enjoy it(again just with a certain kind of music).

I can only imagine how this would sound on my main system, unfortunately that dac can't do dsd without a clock change, but an Audio-GD D-27(dual ess9038pro) is in my future. The difference between the nfb11 and nfb7 is quite similar to the dsd conversion, much more natural and speakerlike.

Note, you dont need a $10,000 dac for this... Jriver is like, $50 and has a 1 month trial...

A comparison could be made to 4k hdr conversions of 2k sdr material. Observabley better detail and contrast due to more advanced algorithms and displays.
 
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musicreo

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If resampling have such an impact on the sound than probably something is wrong with the resampling.
 
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Zenvota

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If resampling have such an impact on the sound than probably something is wrong with the resampling.
Share positive experience with Out of Your Head, "All VSS is a gimmick, just use Dolby Headphone".

Share positive experience with planar magnetic transducers, "Headphone speed/responsiveness is a gimmick, just use Sennheiser HDXXX".

Share positive experience with a good dac, "All dacs are gimmicks, just use a Behringer UCA222".

Share positive experience with DSD, "DSD is a gimmick, just use 16/44 pcm."

There seems to be a trend with audio skeptics and objectivists. Bias.

Give in to Madness.
 
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Thenewguy007

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There seems to be a trend with audio skeptics and objectivists. Bias.
I blame reddit & its horde of uneducated broke college kids that watch a video on youtube & consider themselves experts.
 
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johnn29

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Been using OOYH exclusively these days with various headphones EQ'd to a Harmen target or USound for inear. The Marten Coltrean preset with a -9db EQ at 2000 and -4000 is some of the best audio I've ever heard on anything.

I keep going back and forth between my KEF R, LS50 and B&W 803 setups but the Marten Coltrean OOYH preset sounds better in many ways. Combine that with Auto EQ/Hesuvi so that you can EQ your earphones and use any means rather than having to worry about how the headphones sound I can pick my preference based on the situation - extreme noise cancelling for public transport or when my house is being refurbished (WI-1000x), comfort and less fatigue (XM3's), when I need to pay attention to my surroundings or carry a conversation (Grado GW100 BT open backs). What's even better is that all are wireless. I have a dual Quake 10B transducers to handle the tacticle impact. And what's even better with the noise cancellers is that you can jack up the transducers to roller coaster maximum and there's no mechanical noise from the sofa vibrating! With loud speakers I have to keep it in check otherwise it spoils the sound

Not to mention with ANC headphones your dynamic range gets a massive boost. I can hear things in movie sound tracks that's really subtle atmospherics - birds chirping and the like.

I was on holiday recently and after a couple of tiring days I just wanted to zonk and watch a movie. I donned my Goovis Cingano VR headset and WI-1000x in my airbnb to watch a 3D Blu-ray. The sound combined with the 3D visuals just transported me into a 3D cinema. All the other synthetic systems like Atmos or DTS:X and even waves just don't get the center channel right. It makes commuting so much more enjoyable with a Samsung OLED laptop/tablet.

None of the other presets sound anywhere near as good to me. But I think they are good approximations for those rooms - they just don't suit my personal preference for loud speakers.

It's been quite a journey to get here - it's not really something you can pull off the shelf and start with. Super X-Fi is attempting to do that, but I find their preset sounds like a real room but with cheaper speakers. But I've reached my audio nirvana.

Shame the number of presets has died down recently - hoping Mr. Fong can measure some new great rooms.
 
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Zenvota

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I have a dual Quake 10B transducers to handle the tacticle impact. And what's even better with the noise cancellers is that you can jack up the transducers to roller coaster maximum and there's no mechanical noise from the sofa vibrating! With loud speakers I have to keep it in check otherwise it spoils the sound
The tactile transducers make such a big difference in externalization and adding a naturalness to the virtualization. I use them on my surround system as well, I decouple the subwoofers with sorbothane and return the shakes with the... shakers xD bombastic lows without bothering anyone outside the room.

How are you sending the signal to the shakers? Multiple bluetooth signals?

Not to mention with ANC headphones your dynamic range gets a massive boost. I can hear things in movie sound tracks that's really subtle atmospherics - birds chirping and the like.
I love this about my headphone systems. Incredible micro detail paired with amazing fidelity and at comfortable listening levels with no range compression. I've been in alot of commercial and home theaters and no loudspeaker system has been able to compare. Even in a dead silent room at reference listening levels.

with a -9db EQ at 2000 and -4000
Just a single big bell huh... my eqs have gotten complicated Dx
20190623_145010.jpg
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But they sound perfect =/

donned my Goovis Cingano VR headset and WI-1000x in my airbnb to watch a 3D Blu-ray.
Awesome! Atmos/DTS:X soundtracks +3d is really fun but there's not alot of it.

It's been quite a journey to get here - it's not really something you can pull off the shelf and start with.
Aint that the truth, but worth all the effort.
 
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johnn29

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The tactile transducers make such a big difference in externalization and adding a naturalness to the virtualization. I use them on my surround system as well, I decouple the subwoofers with sorbothane and return the shakes with the... shakers xD bombastic lows without bothering anyone outside the room.

How are you sending the signal to the shakers? Multiple bluetooth signals?
Bit complicated:

  • I use a sound card with optical out into a 5 way optical splitter.
  • One of the splits goes to a Bluetooth transmitter for the headphones,
  • Other to a optical to RCA transmitter.
  • The RCA then goes into a lip sync delay device so that I can add a variable 0-500ms delay so the transducers signal lines up with the bluetooth which could be anywhere from 40ms to 330ms delay. Rtings makes this so much easier to line up.
  • The other splits are for anyone else who wants to listen. The only time I can see me listening on headphones with others is when it's a heatwave. The portable AC unit we have makes noise and the Class A amps in the SR6012 make my theater turn into an oven.
The problem then is I don't get clean LFE/bass output. With headphones that need heavy cuts in the bass section to track the Harmen curve it's an issue, e.g. my XM3s. So to avoid that I use a Creative USB BT transmitter to the headphones which has the EQ/HRTF and the clean soundcard output to the transducers. Mpc-BE has dual audio output, and voilla.

See: complicated!

It's a single bell for now! I've tried experimenting with various slopes and widths but it's really hard to EQ by ear. I'm just thankful you recommended that I cut that region because that was the missing part really. Without those cuts the sound signature just isn't right.


What's really frustrating is that there's no open source Atmos/DTS;X decoder so we'll never get height effects. Darrin would have to re-record all those rooms anyway and I can't really see how he could add them on the preset I like. It's easy to spin around on to get the HRTF for rear and sides, but you can't do the same with heights.

And yes, it's very worthwhile. What I've liked about this journey so far is that it all came from a neighbor complaining about bass. I've never had any complaints before but I was playing the space shuttle take off scene in an IMAX documentary which has extreme bass. After that I got anxious that I'd never be able to turn my HT to reference again, so I must find a solution! About 12 headphone purchases later, learning about HRTF, trialing out different presets in HeSuVi and finally getting OOYH and the treble cut together it's complete. Meanwhile I have no neighbors anymore. But the flexibilty of headphones and the quality I've gotten means it wasn't a waste of time
 
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I use a sound card with optical out into a 5 way optical splitter.
Never even thought of that that's amazing. Two ways I've tried so far are splitting the signal out of a dac(rca or xlr) and using voicemeter. I'll have to look into that more.
 
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Zenvota

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I immediately bought a cheap optical splitter to try on one my systems xD

it all came from a neighbor complaining about bass. I've never had any complaints before but I was playing the space shuttle take off scene in an IMAX documentary which has extreme bass.
I know it I can shake the house next door with the THX Eclipse demo. You may want to look into this as well, isolating the subwoofers from the floor with sorbothane + your shakers, very good alternative to no sub bass at all xD

What's really frustrating is that there's no open source Atmos/DTS;X decoder so we'll never get height effects.
Ive been waiting for an atmos decoder and windows to be able to output height channels, I have a glorius vision for a 9channel+ loudspeaker system of splitting the signal off with voicemeter to multiple systems via usb to usb/optical converters(with a TCXO and good psu of course, and hub like the Regen), to r2r nos nonfeedback current signal class a dac/amps all on separate ultra isolators, using speakers with Raals and Scanspeaks. Sonic. Perfection. Eat it Arcam.
 
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Dixter

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Thinking Darin uses the Smyth A8 for the room captures... the A8 won't do Atmos.. that version, the A16 is due out anyday now... then you get to have rooms with 16 speakers so the height channels will be available... :)
 
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johnn29

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So I tried Impulcifier today after buying the USB DAW and binural mics. I'm really impressed with the result - it's by far the best externalisation I've gotten, even better than the previous OOYH I loved. I took the measurements in my office with my LS50 setup, it's a bit of a reflective room so when I A vs B I sometimes prefer the sound signature of the OOYH preset I like but I can always improve my room. But in principle this is going to be a real game changer.

I've attached the FR correction it does for your headphones so you can see some sample output.

Only thing is you need to use it with an over-ear headphone - IEM's won't work because you can't use a binural mic with them

Headphones left.png
 
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Zenvota

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So I tried Impulcifier today after buying the USB DAW and binural mics. I'm really impressed with the result - it's by far the best externalisation I've gotten, even better than the previous OOYH I loved. I took the measurements in my office with my LS50 setup, it's a bit of a reflective room so when I A vs B I sometimes prefer the sound signature of the OOYH preset I like but I can always improve my room. But in principle this is going to be a real game changer.

I've attached the FR correction it does for your headphones so you can see some sample output.

Only thing is you need to use it with an over-ear headphone - IEM's won't work because you can't use a binural mic with them

Ah very cool, I remember Jaakko talking about this. @jaakkopasanen Maybe a dedicated thread for this? Read through the guide will definately be getting the mics and trying this.
 
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jaakkopasanen

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I'm thrilled to see people being interested in my humble project. Perhaps a separate thread would be in order, I'm very interested in hearing how it works for other people. There is already a thread in sound science but that discussion is probably a bit too technical for some people.
 
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I'm thrilled to see people being interested in my humble project. Perhaps a separate thread would be in order, I'm very interested in hearing how it works for other people. There is already a thread in sound science but that discussion is probably a bit too technical for some people.
Sounds very interesting. Now if you could figure out a way to include head tracking in the package.
 
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