[cute]

Whatever!

 

[tinyman392]

 
Yeah, and Tyll said while they were enjoyable, they weren't audiophile reference quality. There are tons of 300$ enjoyable headphones on the market. 600-1000 USD means that headphones should at least be some level of reference quality.

Tyll said that about the PM-1...  PM-2, especially stock, is a different animal.  It does get closer to reference than the PM-1.  Though to get it there, Oppo did have to make a few sacrifices.  
 
___
EDIT: Tell -> Tyll...  Damn autocorrect!  

 

[mrscotchguy]

Yeah, and Tyll said while they were enjoyable, they weren't audiophile reference quality. There are tons of 300$ enjoyable headphones on the market. 600-1000 USD means that headphones should at least be some level of reference quality.

I humbly disagree, I've listened to all the Audezes and I find all but the LCDX colored enough that they would never be "reference" in my book. Other top dollar cans from say Fostex, Fischer, Dennon, Ultrasone, Grado, etc... They seem to have a color or flavor and not necessarily reference even if advertised as it. People's hard earned money goes far beyond just a sound signature any more. Aesthetics, comfort, and "join-the-club" appeal all contribute to the purchase.

Every headphone has pros and cons. We can all agree that the price of luxury headphones has grown, especially in the last few years... But is it because technology is getting better, or are we as consumers just willing to pay more? If we stopped buying the expensive gear, would prices drop or rise?

After owning planers (Hifiman and Fostex) and demoing Audeze, I can tell you the major benefit for me is not needing to reposition the headphone "in the sweet spot" to get the best sound like with my Sennheiser, Grado, and Beyer headphones. Between that and comfort are my two most important factors when I'm stuck between two headphones I'd purchase with everything else being equal.

Are the Oppo headphones really worth their asking price? Realistically, the better question to ask here is -- are any headphones past a certain point worth their asking price? ...Will Oppo ever sell as many headphones as larger companies like Senn, Beyer, AKG, etc? Is that how they can justify their price points?

I can agree that the HD600s and HD650s sound magical when driven synergistically and for most, that might even be enough for end game. I'm sure Oppo's cans could sound just as magical giving the right synergistic pairing. We won't know until more people listen to it.

I have no opinion or stake in Oppo in one way or e other. Until I read about the felt mods on the PM2, I personally had no interest in Oppo's headphones besides causal curiosity. The value I find in Oppo isn't where is sits in comparison to the HD600/650 (these headphones will never stop over delivering, IMO), but rather, how do they compare to Planars that are much more expensive... If they can deliver sound similar to an Audeze and be more comfortable, then the value is adding competition to the market to push for better performance that will eventually trickle down to a more affordable price point.

From my perspective, it seems like Oppo and Hifiman are the only planar company attempting to work with their customers to please most of their concerns. You have to respect that, if nothing else. That alone justifies some of the higher markup in my book.

Take it or leave it. I may be jaded though since I sell wine and Scotch for a living... Possibly the one hobby even more subjective than audio....

 

[obsidyen]

I humbly disagree, I've listened to all the Audezes and I find all but the LCDX colored enough that they would never be "reference" in my book. Other top dollar cans from say Fostex, Fischer, Dennon, Ultrasone, Grado, etc... They seem to have a color or flavor and not necessarily reference even if advertised as it. People's hard earned money goes far beyond just a sound signature any more. Aesthetics, comfort, and "join-the-club" appeal all contribute to the purchase.

Every headphone has pros and cons. We can all agree that the price of luxury headphones has grown, especially in the last few years... But is it because technology is getting better, or are we as consumers just willing to pay more? If we stopped buying the expensive gear, would prices drop or rise?

After owning planers (Hifiman and Fostex) and demoing Audeze, I can tell you the major benefit for me is not needing to reposition the headphone "in the sweet spot" to get the best sound like with my Sennheiser, Grado, and Beyer headphones. Between that and comfort are my two most important factors when I'm stuck between two headphones I'd purchase with everything else being equal.

Are the Oppo headphones really worth their asking price? Realistically, the better question to ask here is -- are any headphones past a certain point worth their asking price? ...Will Oppo ever sell as many headphones as larger companies like Senn, Beyer, AKG, etc? Is that how they can justify their price points?

I can agree that the HD600s and HD650s sound magical when driven synergistically and for most, that might even be enough for end game. I'm sure Oppo's cans could sound just as magical giving the right synergistic pairing. We won't know until more people listen to it.

I have no opinion or stake in Oppo in one way or e other. Until I read about the felt mods on the PM2, I personally had no interest in Oppo's headphones besides causal curiosity. The value I find in Oppo isn't where is sits in comparison to the HD600/650 (these headphones will never stop over delivering, IMO), but rather, how do they compare to Planars that are much more expensive... If they can deliver sound similar to an Audeze and be more comfortable, then the value is adding competition to the market to push for better performance that will eventually trickle down to a more affordable price point.

From my perspective, it seems like Oppo and Hifiman are the only planar company attempting to work with their customers to please most of their concerns. You have to respect that, if nothing else. That alone justifies some of the higher markup in my book.

Take it or leave it. I may be jaded though since I sell wine and Scotch for a living... Possibly the one hobby even more subjective than audio....

 
Fair enough. HD650s are amazing at what they do. There are many new headphones that do a lot of things better, but they lack something compared to HD650s in some way. For instance, many headphones have piercing treble, many others have recessed mids, many are heavy... HD650s are still the best all-rounder headphones in my opinion.
 
I will audition PM-2s when the dealer in my country starts selling them. If they have HD650 sound quality with more portability (foldable etc.), I might even consider them. That said, everyone's impressions still make me think Oppo kind of overpriced their headphones. Maybe USD 500 would have been better. But as you said, the demand for audio items drove the prices up. It all started when Denon priced their now discontinued D7000 at USD 999. Kind of funny to see new Denon lineup is rather inexpensive due to lack of demand.

 

[chengka7]

Having tried almost all current flagship headphones, hd650 is still one of my favorite.

 

[Smarty-pants]

OK, explain your reasoning for facepalming, then. Please be specific. How do you think the PM-1 and PM-2 compare? What do you think they should be priced at? Do you think price is influencing how you feel about products? How do you think they compare relative to other headphones that you have had a chance to hear side-by-side? What other headphones do you like, and why? Or dislike. This will better help me understand where you are coming from. And, lastly, can you provide any objective data to supplement your claims? If not, that is OK, but it helps.

Also, you threw me in a quote that wasn't mine.

The reason should be quite obvious. The main part being that the PM-1 is made with better parts but has the exact same ergonomics and drivers as the PM-2,
along with the same type of earpad (only in leather instead of faux leather) that has been sent to all owners.
They should essentially sound the same in that regard, but yet you say the PM-2 are worth more? Really?

Price NEVER influences how I FEEL about a product... ever. I weigh the performance and features of a product against my needs, wants, and likewise of other users
to make an informed decision as to whether that product is worth paying for compared to it's abilities and to en extent, the prices of similar products.

No one needs to provide objective data to disprove your claims. The burden of proof lies on you to prove your claims.
Giving some price as to what you think they should cost is more of a subjective notion anyway.
Just about every review out there disagrees with you, but yet you think your claim should be valid based on what?
Oppo isn't having any problems selling plenty of their headphones, so all of those people obviously think the price is worth it.
So, just by those rationales, it shows your claims to be dubious.
Point being, it's a subjective claim. Maybe they aren't worth the asking price to YOU, but that doesn't make it definitive for all.

(I fixed the accidental misquote... man I really hate the format of this forum... trying to quote one part of a post without quoting half the thread with it is ridiculous.)

 

[dpump]

I haven't heard the Senn 600 or 650 in several years, but the pair I heard at a show surprised me by not sounding as rolled off in the highs as I remembered from older ones. However, if you want to estimate the price you think phones should be selling for, the 650, IMHO, should be about $350, the 600 should be $300. They've been out for many , many years and shouldn't cost more to produce than a lot of other phones that sell in the $300-$350 range. If the 600 is really worth its list price of $495, then the PM-2 is definitely worth its list price of $695. There's no doubt that the PM-2 driver is much more costly and time consuming to produce than a dynamic driver and the rest of the phone also appears to be very well made. Of course, Senns can be had at some discount-not so with the PM-2 currently. 

 

[Sound Eq]

i hope for a good comparison against audeze lcd2 that i can read and analyse what the oppo pm2 is all bout

 

[good sound]

 
 Senns can be had at some discount-not so with the PM-2 currently. 

And, not ever likely to be in the future. I have never seen a current model new sealed "A" stock Oppo product discounted from any authorized retailer.

 

[hans030390]

They should essentially sound the same in that regard, but yet you say the PM-2 are worth more? Really?

No one needs to provide objective data to disprove your claims. The burden of proof lies on you to prove your claims.

Just about every review out there disagrees with you, but yet you think your claim should be valid based on what?
Oppo isn't having any problems selling plenty of their headphones, so all of those people obviously think the price is worth it.
So, just by those rationales, it shows your claims to be dubious.
Point being, it's a subjective claim. Maybe they aren't worth the asking price to YOU, but that doesn't make it definitive for all.

 
Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning behind what I was saying, and that may be my fault. It's no secret the PM-1 and 2 are largely the same headphone, substituting leather with pleather and metal with plastic, generally. The difference largely or entirely comes down to the pads, and it is quite the difference while still sharing many of the same traits. What I was comparing was the sound of the PM-1 and PM-2 straight from the box, as they're otherwise basically the same package at face value. In that regard, I thought the stock PM-2 offered an audible improvement over the stock PM-1. Granted, you should be able to get the same or very similar sound on either by matching pads. It was not my intention to confuse, but to compare sound only as they came originally. In that regard, I consider the PM-2 above the PM-1. If made to sound the same by swapping pads, there enters the question of whether or not the nicer materials and pretty box are worth that in the end. That's a more abstract and difficult debate to tackle. I would pay $500 for the sound I get stock from the PM-2, assuming I stretched them out a bit for my fat head, and $300 for the sound I got stock from the PM-1. If the PM-2 had the PM-1's pads and they sounded the same, I'd pay, you guessed it, $300. And this is perhaps generous due to their looks and portability, plus I'm a sucker for a laid-back sound. Given the choice to have them sound identical, which they should be close with the same pads, I'll go with the cheaper option (PM-2 is still a luxurious looking and feeling headphone, and the weight might be lower...more comfortable).
 
As for some sort of proof or objective validation for my claims, I hope you will enjoy my review and analysis when I post it here in the coming week or two. Perhaps I should not have spoken until then, as to not unnecessarily rile people up. I have been building up a lot of interesting information that I hope folks will be receptive to here. I'll even have some good stuff for people that like to mod and tinker like myself. I think it will help you better understand my point of view. What will you have to offer to the discussion in tandem with or after that? Until then, I would enjoy hearing more about your detailed experiences with the two Oppo headphones, pad differences, and how that compares to other gear you like or dislike. I just ask that next time you hold off before prematurely throwing your face in your palm and offering nothing else, as that gives off a certain first impression that might not bode well for people who are actually interested in engaging in meaningful conversation.
 
I also welcome thorough, well thought out critiques and reviews, preferably from trusted experts, that may challenge what I think, if you have any specific examples to offer. And where as I never claimed most people did or should agree with me (though, I certainly haven't gathered that "about every review out there" disagrees with me, unless one narrows their scope of view), I'm certainly open to others' thoughts so that I can better understand where my preferences lie in relation to the rest of the public. I find it all genuinely interesting.
 
Now, I don't mean to get too off topic and generally loathe discussing pricing and product value on this site, by your logic, would you say that every headphone that sells well is priced appropriately relative to others in the market? Have you never considered a product to be overpriced for what you get despite it being popular with consumers? What about other market, industry, and community influences that shape how we view various products? BTW, is it still cool to hate on Beats or Bose as being "crap" and "overpriced" on these forums despite them being unimaginably popular with the general public? I hope I'm not too far off the mark when I say you've probably considered certain products, not necessarily headphones, to be overpriced despite them selling well, and perhaps you could never understand the market and industry's pricing models. If so, I am not sure what the hostility is over my opinion on pricing and value. We can disagree for our own reasons, and there is no shame in that. For what it's worth, at least one person I trust when it comes to impressions and measurements thought the PM-2 sounded good and was priced well despite really disliking the PM-1. No biggie.
 
I'm sorry I forgot to stamp my post with IMO all over it. Never said I was a definitive spokesman for all things audio. You are welcome to disagree with me, though I'd prefer an actual, meaningful discussion over impulsive facepalming.
 

 
I haven't heard the Senn 600 or 650 in several years, but the pair I heard at a show surprised me by not sounding as rolled off in the highs as I remembered from older ones. However, if you want to estimate the price you think phones should be selling for, the 650, IMHO, should be about $350, the 600 should be $300. They've been out for many , many years and shouldn't cost more to produce than a lot of other phones that sell in the $300-$350 range. If the 600 is really worth its list price of $495, then the PM-2 is definitely worth its list price of $695. There's no doubt that the PM-2 driver is much more costly and time consuming to produce than a dynamic driver and the rest of the phone also appears to be very well made. Of course, Senns can be had at some discount-not so with the PM-2 currently. 

 
You may find my HD600 measurements interesting, which I'll throw up in my PM-2 review for comparison. They're not as rolled as people think, at least not to my ears. I suppose if I think the PM-2 is worth $500 from a sound perspective, I'd put the HD600 there as well, though part of the problem here is the seemingly ever-inflating costs of headphones and related products over the past few years. The HD600 is a truly competitive headphone in terms of sound. Factoring in more things, the HD600 is less versatile, less portable, and not as stylish as the Oppos. I do factor those into buying decisions in the end, which I hadn't quite touched on fully. But, given you can get the HD600 around $300 at times, that's a huge value for the sound you get relative to many other headphones. But not everyone is stationary at home, and some want closed...many, many factors to consider, sure.
 
Not trying to imply I agree or disagree one way or the other, but are the costs and complexities of a driver really what matter in the end? If you can go cheaper and simpler with as good as or better sound, is the other driver still justified if it comes with a higher price tag? I think there are a few ways to look at it, but I'm curious to know what you think. Just a thought experiment. NOT referring to any particular driver or headphone here. There is something to be said about recouping the initial R&D costs of a new product, assuming the new product has actual merits in the marketplace (and I do think the Oppos do, namely in style and portability, less so in absolute sound, IMO, YMMV, DHAB). Build and looks are great on the Oppos, BTW. Love it. But the modularity and simple build of the Senns. is worth noting as well (very easy to work with and repair, for one).

 

[MattTCG]

^^ I appreciated your thoughts and impressions regardless of whether I agree with it or not. I may have mentioned that I'm currently writing a review for headphone.guru. It will still be a couple of weeks until it's finished, so I'll hold my opinion until the review is done. 
 
Open minded impressions and responses are always welcome. 

 

[HiFiAudio]

  Now, I don't mean to get too off topic and generally loathe discussing pricing and product value on this site, by your logic, would you say that every headphone that sells well is priced appropriately relative to others in the market? Have you never considered a product to be overpriced for what you get despite it being popular with consumers? What about other market, industry, and community influences that shape how we view various products? BTW, is it still cool to hate on Beats or Bose as being "crap" and "overpriced" on these forums despite them being unimaginably popular with the general public? I hope I'm not too far off the mark when I say you've probably considered certain products, not necessarily headphones, to be overpriced despite them selling well, and perhaps you could never understand the market and industry's pricing models. If so, I am not sure what the hostility is over my opinion on pricing and value. We can disagree for our own reasons, and there is no shame in that. For what it's worth, at least one person I trust when it comes to impressions and measurements thought the PM-2 sounded good and was priced well despite really disliking the PM-1. No biggie.

Seems your going way overboard on subjective pricing opinion and other things by making all those comments.   Here someone want to read about how the PM-2 performs not so much as a "implied biased critic" using your own odd economic views concerning the headphone value you reference from your beloved HD600's.  If you made verbose comparisons to listening and measurements that be one thing, but really its like you can't even conduct a simple review or feedback that is well organized and is a POA to judge.   I'm sure you can do this, but you need to not over talk or explain yourself here.

 

[HiFiAudio]

  Open minded impressions and responses are always welcome. 

Specially on topic.  Comparisons are always good. 

 

[mike7898]

Just wanted to say I own the pm-1 and simply saying that IAM very happy with them and for me well worth the money, I Find myself on this thread more often then the pm-1,enjoying reading everyone post especially the very last few, it's like getting a free newspaper!

Mike

 

[obsidyen]

 
I haven't heard the Senn 600 or 650 in several years, but the pair I heard at a show surprised me by not sounding as rolled off in the highs as I remembered from older ones. However, if you want to estimate the price you think phones should be selling for, the 650, IMHO, should be about $350, the 600 should be $300. They've been out for many , many years and shouldn't cost more to produce than a lot of other phones that sell in the $300-$350 range. If the 600 is really worth its list price of $495, then the PM-2 is definitely worth its list price of $695. There's no doubt that the PM-2 driver is much more costly and time consuming to produce than a dynamic driver and the rest of the phone also appears to be very well made. Of course, Senns can be had at some discount-not so with the PM-2 currently. 

Who cares how much R&D they made? If it doesn't sound as good as HD650/600s, then it's not worth it. I'm not saying it doesn't as I haven't heard it yet, just saying that bad R&D results in expensive yet disappointing products, such as Ultrasone Edition 10. Beats have a lot of money, Apple bought them, but hey they are still terrible.