[Mython]

A question about fit. As I noted when I got my K 10s the fit is the best I had in CIEMs. Now I notice the following though which I did not pay attention to earlier. When listening while in bed laying on my back or in park etc. there is loss of seal in that I can notice a decrease in bass and reduced fullness in the sound. If I push them I can hear the sound come back but as soon as I let go it is back to sub-optimal. As soon as I sit straight or get up I get a good seal back.

Is this normal or should I be trying to get a tighter/more snug fit?

Thanks
Nabil

 
 
I don't know how JM views this topic, but there's always a certain degree of compromise with CIEM fit.
 
Some people's ear canals change shape more than other people's, in various positions. That's not a cop-out; it's a well known thing that humanbeings do not all have identical anatomy.
 
When you lie on your back, your jaw slides backwards a little, due to gravity, and this can influence the shape of the ear canal.
 
If you are someone whose ear canal changes shape quite a lot in different bodily positions, then there will be a greater chance of slightly losing seal in certain bodily positions. I myself find I lose seal a bit when I lie on my back, although I am fortunate that I do not completely lose it, just a bit.
 
Unless you are one of the fortunate people whose ear canals change only very minimally with different jaw positions, then you would need to have CIEMs that are quite uncomfortably tight in order to be sure of never losing seal in different positions.
 
Such is life.

 

[FullCircle]

A question about fit. As I noted when I got my K 10s the fit is the best I had in CIEMs. Now I notice the following though which I did not pay attention to earlier. When listening while in bed laying on my back or in park etc. there is loss of seal in that I can notice a decrease in bass and reduced fullness in the sound. If I push them I can hear the sound come back but as soon as I let go it is back to sub-optimal. As soon as I sit straight or get up I get a good seal back.

Is this normal or should I be trying to get a tighter/more snug fit?

Thanks
Nabil

 
 
The ear canal is dynamic, the jaw essentially "floats" within its socket.  When you walk, talk, turn your neck... just about any movement, the shape of the ear canal will change.  Take your pinky, place it up into your ear canal, and open your mouth. You will notic a shift in shape....
 
Now, if your ear impression was taken while you were in laying position, I would expect the seal to be present while in laying position, not so much in an upright position. Of course the flip side is, if you took your ear mold impression while in an up right position, I would expect a seal, while you are in an up right position, not so much when you are laying down.
 
 

  Hey Noble dudes,whats your take on burn in for the my upcoming K-10'S.do they get better in time, or what you see is what you get?  

 
 
Really your question is about "burn in" not so much about "Noble" products specifically, as a great percentage of CIEMs on the market use the same type of drivers.
 
This "burn in" subject is controversial, and I tend not to get involved in subjects like; "burn in" & "cables." 
 

 

[Nabil]

Thanks Mython and zachchen1996..

I will see if the Noble folks say anything but otherwise I will live with it since:

1- the loss in seal is not complete and I can still enjoy the music
2- I do not spend too much time listening while laying on my back in bed , park etc
3- I don't want risking getting a fit that is so snug it causes discomfort / pain.

 

[Nabil]

The ear canal is dynamic, the jaw essentially "floats" within its socket.  When you walk, talk, turn your neck... just about any movement, the shape of the ear canal will change.  Take your pinky, place it up into your ear canal, and open your mouth. You will notic a shift in shape....

Now, if your ear impression was taken while you were in laying position, I would expect the seal to be present while in laying position, not so much in an upright position. Of course the flip side is, if you took your ear mold impression while in an up right position, I would expect a seal, while you are in an up right position

Thanks for the quick response. We need genetic engineering to make our ear canals immune to position, weight change, etc.

 

[sq3rjick]

My 8.As have a shorter canal length than my K10s (because I specifically requested longer canals on my K10). My K10s seal and isolate so much better than my 8.As when sitting in an upright, normal listening position. However, my 8.As stay with a better seal when I am in a nonstandard listening position (on my back, on my side). I can still enjoy my K10s in these positions if I get the positioning just right, but otherwise the 8.A does better with this situation.

I think it is all about compromise. I will take the better fit and isolation that the longer canals provide every single day (in my normal listening position), and accept that I have to be much more careful when listening in a nonstandard position to be comfortable. If you need the fit to be better in more listening positions, you might ask for shorter canals, but be aware that your normal listening experience might then not be as good and isolated as it might have been.

Really, though, if you are looking for a better fit to your changing and dynamic ear canals, you might want to go with a silicone CIEM (which Noble conveniently has in the S line) rather than hard acrylic. You won't be able to get the 8C or K10 if you go that route, but you might get better comfort in odd listening positions.

Like I said, it's all about compromise and trade offs.

 

[FullCircle]

I don't know how JM views this topic, but there's always a certain degree of compromise with CIEM fit.

Some people's ear canals change shape more than other people's, in various positions. That's not a cop-out; it's a well known thing that humanbeings do not all have identical anatomy.



Such is life.

I didn't really realize the vast differences in anatomy until I held a job as a surgical coach for cochlear implants. In the operation room I soon learned the text books were more like a guide book more than anything. The differences in the ear anatomy among people go beyond just the pinna and ear canal.... The positioning of the major landmarks of the cochlea we're generalized and you had to fish for them from person to person. Another strange thing is the length of the basilar membrane varies among people as well, which makes me wonder, with with all of these variations.... I wonder if this attributes to folks that love hi fidelity, to those that can't distinguish between the song bird and a bull frog.

 

[Hawaiiancerveza]

Just got my 4C.  Oh audio bliss... Luis and Kunlun weren't kidding about this treasure.  I've fallen in love with my music all over again.  Seal is perfect also.  Hmmmmm...... No abnormalities with the fit, no breaks in the seal when I move or open my mouth.  And awesome sound, just awesome.... mmmmm

 

[kh600rr]

Congratulations hawaiiancerveza..

 

[Hawaiiancerveza]

Thanks. kh600rr!

 

[Sfox7076]

My K10s arrived.  They sound amazing.  They are more than I hoped for sound wise.  Make my Shure 535's sound terrible.  The Shure's are muddy in comparison.  Bass clarity (not overkill, but the ability to pick out the verious notes) blows anything else I have ever owned out of the water.  They are much less thin sounding/less fatiguing than the universal Roxanne's I heard.  I could probably listen to these for hours and not get annoyed.  The fit is also amazing.  Have not been able to break the seal without yanking them out of my ears.  Really great job on the sound and the fit.

 

[AmberOzL]

Yet another happy customer from Noble. I guess The Wizard really becomes a legend.

 

[kh600rr]

  My K10s arrived.  They sound amazing.  They are more than I hoped for sound wise.  Make my Shure 535's sound terrible.  The Shure's are muddy in comparison.  Bass clarity (not overkill, but the ability to pick out the verious notes) blows anything else I have ever owned out of the water.  They are much less thin sounding/less fatiguing than the universal Roxanne's I heard.  I could probably listen to these for hours and not get annoyed.  The fit is also amazing.  Have not been able to break the seal without yanking them out of my ears.  Really great job on the sound and the fit.

Congrats My Friend...

 

[AUserName501]

Will Noble Audio start offering a universal version of the Kaiser 10 now that the Roxanne has proven there is a large market for universal versions of flagship CIEMs?
 
CIEMs have significant disadvantages such as requiring a mould of your ear, long wait times, significantly lower resale value and most importantly if you have seal issues you have to go through the whole process again. Universal versions don't have these problems and if a proper seal is achieved via ear tips the sound quality will be the same. Expanding into universal versions will expand the flagship IEM market, bring in new customers and bring back old customers who have been disappointed by fit issues and the low resale value.
 
It will also make getting objective measurements easier rather than relying on the spurious testimonies from audiophiles whom I have no confidence in their hearing or comparison abilities. At the moment the problem is that there are a lot of CIEM makers and no one knows what they all sound like nor is there any objective measurements to compare. Simple information such as a frequency response curve is not available which makes spending thousands of dollars on a CIEM very risky.
 
I have heard plenty of good things about the Kaiser 10 but I'm not going to buy anything other than a universal version. I'm not interested in fancy acrylic colors or custom decals and as I can get the Roxanne Universal for $1300, which is a $300 discount other the custom version, I don't see reasons to buy the Kaiser 10. I'd buy a $1300 Kaiser 10 universal but I'm not going to buy a custom version.
 
Noble Audio responded saying that they did consider a universal version of the Kaiser 10 but there was some significant costs involved with the production process and as a result they decided against it. They are not opposed to universal versions but they aren't giving any guarantees that future CIEMs will have a universal version.
 
There responses can be read here:
 
First response
 
Second response
 
Third response

 

[wickson]

  Will Noble Audio start offering a universal version of the Kaiser 10 now that the Roxanne has proven there is a large market for universal versions of flagship CIEMs?
 
CIEMs have significant disadvantages such as requiring a mould of your ear, long wait times, significantly lower resale value and most importantly if you have seal issues you have to go through the whole process again. Universal versions don't have these problems and if a proper seal is achieved via ear tips the sound quality will be the same. Expanding into universal versions will expand the flagship IEM market, bring in new customers and bring back old customers who have been disappointed by fit issues and the low resale value.
 
It will also make getting objective measurements easier rather than relying on the spurious testimonies of audiophiles. At the moment the problem is that there are a lot of CIEM makers and no one knows what they all sound like nor is there any objective measurements to compare. Simple information such as a frequency response curve is not available which makes spending thousands of dollars on a CIEM very risky.
 
I have heard plenty of good things about the Kaiser 10 but I'm not going to buy anything other than a universal version. I'm not interested in fancy acrylic colors or custom decals and as I can get the Roxanne Universal for $1300, which is a $300 discount other the custom version, I don't see reasons to buy the Kaiser 10.

Read about the many fitment issues with the universal Roxanne, it's massive. 

 

[AmberOzL]

I don't want to start custom vs universal fight in here but I disagree with universals giving the same sound quality of ciems.
 
Because they are not and they will not fit like a glove as customs do, they will never provide the same comfort/isolation/seal therefore sound quality. I can totally understand why people demand universals but in my logic, they will never reach the customs advantages. They have other advantages though, usually cheaper than custom versions, resale value, tip rolling etc etc.
 
At the end, one has to device which things are more valuable to him/her.
 
On the other hand, I admit, I would like to see universals K10. Not because I would buy it, I prefer customs always, but I am sure many people would buy it and I think it will be on Noble's favor. The question is, would universal K10 steal custom K10 sales?