New Schiit! Ragnarok and Yggdrasil

[atomicbob]

No codec, DAC or ADC achieves 24 bits resolution and precision, let alone 32 bits. Everything above 16 ~ 20 bits are marketing bits. What is lost in the translation is that the codecs will handle word sizes of 24 or 32 bits, which can be convenient for data transfers and programmers, but have precision far less than the word size handled. So many are getting hung up on bit depths, sample rates etc. to have lost sight of the meaningful aspects of DAC implementation. This is the danger of publishing specs where numbers are compared without context or understanding. A DAC with 24 bit resolution but only 16 ~ 18 bit precision is not likely to sound as transparent as a DAC with 20 bit resolution AND 20 bit precision. I think the Schiit designers are chasing the latter and I for one am looking forward to hearing this implementation approach.

 

[Jones Bob]

I thought I was done with high-end audio drones. You know, the types that lurk around the tower portion of the shows that take themselves so seriously. All are unflagging and emotional partisans. Any statements of dissatisfaction with the pertinent system are met with reactions from arrogant denial to outright hostility. The attitude that “everything else sucks” prevails. Armchair designers debate design aspects of devices they have never built. This arrogant attitude seems to have oozed onto this thread. It makes me wonder why I bother hang out on a thread which is all about my company's and half about my own products. I have seen comments directed at a varietyof  folks on this thread which are juvenile, vituperative, and just plain mean. Stop bullying!


 


I am in this non-high end audio endeavor because I love it. I am singularly fortunate to be able to work in the field of my dreams, encompassing the hobby I enjoy so much. I have found a group of fellow audio hobbyists with which to enjoy a common passion.


 


Perhaps all of you armchair designers could start a wannabe designer's thread so you may pop your zits at each other rather than stink up this one. I will reveal more aspects of the design of my products on the appropriate threads as long as it does not continue to draw too many flies. I will not be engaged in design debates online. My anonymity has long been broken on this forum. Those who have a desire to query or debate me in design areas may look me up at meets and RMAF in person, if they have they courage to do so when not hiding behind an avatar. Until then, grow up!

Way to deal with the gadflies and ankle biters, Mike!

 

[Priidik]

   

• Take a 24-bit recording. Keeping reducing the bits in Adobe Audition or whatever program. Tell me the point where you start to hear a difference. For me, it's around 18-bits.
• ..

For most of us unfortunate sigma-delta consumers it is poitless exercise, isn't it? 

 

[Ableza]

But I read somewhere on the Internet that more bits are better!! 

 

[prot]

  But I read somewhere on the Internet that more bits are better!! 

Especially the cryoed ones

 

[jcx]

 
 Way to deal with the gadflies and ankle biters, Mike!

it happens that there are quite a few more engineers that have spent decades designing with ADC, DAC, DSP outside of audio than the few that have found success in audio
 
the EE theory and practical limits aren't fundamentally different in audio
 
I understand passion for “the right” solution to a problem – I have had these enthusiasms in my career on occasion - but have been forced to admit some were no better for the customer than established practice
 
I don't see the value in a distressing ad homenim, rug chewing attack that recycles stuff you hear from self styled audiophile gurus all the time
 
does this community really need  to demonize "outsiders" (i.e. anyone with questions or objective, "conventional engineering" or psychoacoustic science informed input)

 

[estreeter]

Hey Mike - great news : many of the blowhards in this thread will be waiting for you at CANJAM and man have they got some questions. I dont know if you're a drinker, but I expect you will be sorely tempted over that crucial week. OK, I'll let myself out. 
 
Your humble servant,
 
Captain Obvioua

 

[InsanityOne]

I've been following the Yggy pretty closely but upon seeing the recent pictures of the 0.96 and 0.99 pre-production models I noticed that it does not have an I2S input. What a shame, does anyone know if it will be available as an upgrade option? If not I might just have to stick with the Master 7 as my future purchase.

 

[Clemmaster]

 
I already know that.  I understand it fully.  However, why say bit perfect?  They are just putting out there the same BS the other companies are putting out there.  Instead of:
 
Schiit:
We are bit perfect up to 20 bits.  On a 24 bit file we down sample the last 4 bits to what we can account for.  Ask your self, how many of you can really hear the difference between 20 bit and 24 bits? the chances are slim to none.  We are not like othe DAC designers telling you we can account for 24 bits, the truth is we can give you a bit perfect mirror of the data stream up to 20 bits..
 
How about that for honesty? 
 
Disclaimer:  I'm purchasing the Yggy, along with the SE AMR and the Metrum Pavane.  I like to "own" multiple DACs at the same time for evaluations.

 
I don't think Schiit ever claimed they were "bit perfect". What they say is that their interpolation filter preserves the original samples. They are not idiots, they would never say 'we are 24-bit perfect" when they publish the specs of the 20-bit DAC chips they're using. They have the guts to give a nice middle finger to the industry - which goes by ever bigger numbers, much like your TV's 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio - and actually provide real info on their products so people have a better understanding of what's going on. I wish more companies would do that.

 

[Jones Bob]

it happens that there are quite a few more engineers that have spent decades designing with ADC, DAC, DSP outside of audio than the few that have found success in audio

the EE theory and practical limits aren't fundamentally different in audio

I understand passion for “the right” solution to a problem – I have had these enthusiasms in my career on occasion - but have been forced to admit some were no better for the customer than established practice

I don't see the value in a distressing ad homenim, rug chewing attack that recycles stuff you hear from self styled audiophile gurus all the time

does this community really need  to demonize "outsiders" (i.e. anyone with questions or objective, "conventional engineering" or psychoacoustic science informed input)

I know Mike Moffat from the revolutionary products that I have bought from him hand built and with Theta over the past 25 years. I only know you from the crap you stir up on EVERY forum you post in.

What have you ever designed for audio so that I might sample the execution of all this alledged knowledge?

 

[kostaszag]

  I thought I was done with high-end audio drones. You know, the types that lurk around the tower portion of the shows that take themselves so seriously. All are unflagging and emotional partisans. Any statements of dissatisfaction with the pertinent system are met with reactions from arrogant denial to outright hostility. The attitude that “everything else sucks” prevails. Armchair designers debate design aspects of devices they have never built. This arrogant attitude seems to have oozed onto this thread. It makes me wonder why I bother hang out on a thread which is all about my company's and half about my own products. I have seen comments directed at a varietyof  folks on this thread which are juvenile, vituperative, and just plain mean. Stop bullying!
 
I am in this non-high end audio endeavor because I love it. I am singularly fortunate to be able to work in the field of my dreams, encompassing the hobby I enjoy so much. I have found a group of fellow audio hobbyists with which to enjoy a common passion.
 
Perhaps all of you armchair designers could start a wannabe designer's thread so you may pop your zits at each other rather than stink up this one. I will reveal more aspects of the design of my products on the appropriate threads as long as it does not continue to draw too many flies. I will not be engaged in design debates online. My anonymity has long been broken on this forum. Those who have a desire to query or debate me in design areas may look me up at meets and RMAF in person, if they have they courage to do so when not hiding behind an avatar. Until then, grow up!

Gut gebrüllt Löwe! as Germans would say. (meaning "well roared, Lion!") I am myself so tired of these endless discussions over so-many-bits-this and so-many-db's-that. Being not tech-savvy, I just want to listen to good music.

 

[blitzxgene]

  I've been following the Yggy pretty closely but upon seeing the recent pictures of the 0.96 and 0.99 pre-production models I noticed that it does not have an I2S input. What a shame, does anyone know if it will be available as an upgrade option? If not I might just have to stick with the Master 7 as my future purchase.

Every input on the Yggy reportedly stomps the Master 7, to the point that the Off-Ramp 5 converter that is necessary to elevate the Master 7 to workable levels results in a "barely improves" to "can't tell a difference" response on the Yggy. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a dac just because of the inputs available. 

 

[StanT]

  Hey Mike - great news : many of the blowhards in this thread will be waiting for you at CANJAM and man have they got some questions. I dont know if you're a drinker, but I expect you will be sorely tempted over that crucial week. OK, I'll let myself out. 

Tickets to watch this will be harder to come by than Yggdrasil preorders.

 

[InsanityOne]

  Every input on the Yggy reportedly stomps the Master 7, to the point that the Off-Ramp 5 converter that is necessary to elevate the Master 7 to workable levels results in a "barely improves" to "can't tell a difference" response on the Yggy. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a dac just because of the inputs available. 

Hmm, even the USB input? I mean, I guess I could buy a Wyrd or Audio-gd's latest Digital Interface but I've just been weary of USB as of late due to all of the people saying it is the worst input method in terms of quality.

 

[Olias of Sunhillow]

  Hmm, even the USB input? I mean, I guess I could buy a Wyrd or Audio-gd's latest Digital Interface but I've just been weary of USB as of late due to all of the people saying it is the worst input method in terms of quality.

 
Those days may be over. I'm using a Bryston BDA-2 at the moment, and the USB input is at least on par with the coax and Toslink options.
 
I also can't image Mike Moffat releasing a $2300 "statement DAC" with an input that's not acceptable -- his earlier concerns about USB for audio notwithstanding.