[Ableza]

Originally Posted by jcx 
 
 
so I do call "bit perfect digital filter" hype or puffery - perhaps strictly true description but of no practical relevance
 
 

In other words, you don't like it so it must be useless?  Ok then.

 

[prot]

So I have a question. With this being a 20-bit DAC, does that mean it has to down-sample 24-bit music or am I reading into this wrong?

It's all speculation and I guess only schiit can answer that Q. But the Dac probably does not have to do anythind special. There is hardly any recording that contains information over 20 bits. One can also just ignore those bits over 20 .. or cut them or ...
Try to convert one of your so called 24 bit recordings to 20 bit. My bet is that wont hear anything. Even downconverting from 24 to 16bit is most probably inaudible, especially if you use dither.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that it just doesnt matter ... 20bit is more than enough for everyone

 

[wahsmoh]

I wonder if this whole Schiit Yggy is Mike paying homage to the 20-bit DACs of yesteryear, especially from the 90s. Rather than implementing a chip that imparts a specific sound signature I guess they wanted to start from the ground up. Also glad this is not just another reincarnation of the Sabre329018k-2m. I recall some article of them blabbing on about the PCM67 chip and DAC chips that are no longer manufactured today. Will be interesting to see how this compares to the products designed at Theta Digital using 20-bit DACs in dual mono configuration.

 

[Sorrodje]

  I wonder if this whole Schiit Yggy is Mike paying homage to the 20-bit DACs of yesteryear, especially from the 90s. Rather than implementing a chip that imparts a specific sound signature I guess they wanted to start from the ground up. Also glad this is not just another reincarnation of the Sabre329018k-2m. I recall some article of them blabbing on about the PCM67 chip and DAC chips that are no longer manufactured today. Will be interesting to see how this compares to the products designed at Theta Digital using 20-bit DACs in dual mono configuration.

 
I'd be surprised you missed this thread but who knows : http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-i-hate-chocolate-ice-cream

 

[soundman414]

It's all speculation and I guess only schiit can answer that Q. But the Dac probably does not have to do anythind special. There is hardly any recording that contains information over 20 bits. One can also just ignore those bits over 20 .. or cut them or ...
Try to convert one of your so called 24 bit recordings to 20 bit. My bet is that wont hear anything. Even downconverting from 24 to 16bit is most probably inaudible, especially if you use dither.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that it just doesnt matter ... 20bit is more than enough for everyone

I doubt many would say the additional 4 bits in a DAC is so crucial that it would be a dealbreaker, especially if it sounded tremendous. However, what makes me scratch my head is how they can claim a "bit-perfect" DAC and yet on the surface it seems like it couldn't handle some high definition recordings without downsampling, e.g. a 24/192 track that was truly recorded and mastered at that quality.
 
Again, this is still without any response from Schiit, but further points out the oddity of a 20-Bit DAC... If it is truly a 20-Bit DAC.

 

[purrin]

  I doubt many would say the additional 4 bits in a DAC is so crucial that it would be a dealbreaker, especially if it sounded tremendous. However, what makes me scratch my head is how they can claim a "bit-perfect" DAC and yet on the surface it seems like it couldn't handle some high definition recordings without downsampling, e.g. a 24/192 track that was truly recorded and mastered at that quality.
 
Again, this is still without any response from Schiit, but further points out the oddity of a 20-Bit DAC... If it is truly a 20-Bit DAC.

 

• Take a 24-bit recording. Keeping reducing the bits in Adobe Audition or whatever program. Tell me the point where you start to hear a difference. For me, it's around 18-bits.
• How many high resolution recordings do you have?
• The "bit-perfect" aspect refers to the closed-form DSP filter that maintains the original samples. This actually has some meaning with math/algorithm geeks. Digital filters introduce frequency and phase error, but the DAC vendors don't like to talk about this.
• The "bit-perfect" aspect refers to the accuracy of the DAC. What a lot of people don't understand is that audio grade DACs tend to produce errors or inaccuracies that reduce the effective number of bits. This of course is not advertised by vendors of DACs.
• You can always get a 24-bit ODAC if you think they are full of Schiit.

 

[preproman]

I'll bite.  I have 500 high res recordings,  no I have 2.  What does it matter how many one has?
 
To us non math / algorithm consumers Bit Perfect should mean exactly what it says Bit Perfect.  Any altering of bits is not bit perfect.  If the recording has 24 bits and the DAC down samples it to 16 or whatever.  It's not giving you a bit by bit mirror of the data stream - Is that bit perfect?  
 
​It really doesn't matter if I go use some stupid software, down sample it until I hear a difference - so what?   That's not the point.  Is it bit perfect or is it only bit perfect up to 20 bits what ever the DAC chip is rated?
 
However, saying that.  I do agree that 16 bits is all that really needed and I can't hear a difference between 16 and 24 bits.. 

 

[prot]

I doubt many would say the additional 4 bits in a DAC is so crucial that it would be a dealbreaker, especially if it sounded tremendous. However, what makes me scratch my head is how they can claim a "bit-perfect" DAC and yet on the surface it seems like it couldn't handle some high definition recordings without downsampling, e.g. a 24/192 track that was truly recorded and mastered at that quality.

Again, this is still without any response from Schiit, but further points out the oddity of a 20-Bit DAC... If it is truly a 20-Bit DAC.

They could claim bit perfect same as everyone else does. There is no 24bit Dac. None. The popular sigma-delta DACs like ESS are about 22bit tops.
That's not to say that your Q was not legitimate. I tried to ask the same.

 

[gevorg]

I'll bite.  I have 500 high res recordings,  no I have 2.  What does it matter how many one has?

To us non math / algorithm consumers Bit Perfect should mean exactly what it says Bit Perfect.  Any [COLOR=333333]altering of bits is not bit perfect.  If the recording has 24 bits and the DAC down samples it to 16 or whatever.  It's not giving you a bit by bit mirror of the data stream - Is that bit perfect?  [/COLOR]

[COLOR=333333]​It really doesn't matter if I go use some stupid software, down sample it until I hear a difference - so what?   That's not the point.  Is it bit perfect or is it only bit perfect up to 20 bits what ever the DAC chip is rated?[/COLOR]

[COLOR=333333]However, saying that.  I do agree that 16 bits is all that really needed and I can't hear a difference between 16 and 24 bits.. [/COLOR]

No DAC or ADC truly resolves 24-bit, even if its bitperfect and doesn't "alter the bits". FYI:

***There’s a famous napkin-scribble by a famous analog designer floating around out there on the internet somewhere, regarding the noise and precision of analog circuitry necessary for different digital resolutions. I can’t find it at the moment, but it went something like this:

14-15 bits: standard parts and layout
16-17 bits: attention to power supply noise, premium parts, careful layout
18-19 bits: extreme measures taken with low-noise parts, multi-layer boards, and exceptionally fine layout
20-21 bits: God’s domain

Fact is, 24 bits is 144dB dynamic range, which is about the limit of our Stanford analyzers. The best DACs, to date, manage 19.5-20 Equivalent Number of Bits (ENOB), even if they are “24 bit” or “32 bit” spec’d. 32 bits is 192dB dynamic range, which ain’t gonna happen, no way, no how, not even in temperature-controlled circuits sitting within 2 feet of solid lead shielding. Consider that a stun grenade is 170-180dB, and you’ll see how crazy this is.
...

 

[jcx]

 

Originally Posted by jcx 
 
 
so I do call "bit perfect digital filter" hype or puffery - perhaps strictly true description but of no practical relevance
 
 

In other words, you don't like it so it must be useless?  Ok then.

its not a matter of like or dislike
 
its asking the question of what “bit perfect digital filter” means to the user – any audibly meaningful, detectable difference in the V out of the DAC, any audibly detectable significance when listening to commercial recorded music
there's nothing sacred about the 23rd, 24^th lsb bits in a music recording – put 100 “24 bit” studio ADC on the same mic feed and you will never get 100 matching 24 bit PCM files – you won't get 2
 
a "bit perfect digital filter" is pointless in practice, in engineering theoretical analysis that includes current tech analog noise floor
even more so when human hearing limits, commercial music recording and processing practice are included
 
any want to set up, show up for a David Clark style listening challenge - "bit perfect digital filter" vs a "conventional" FIR filter with coefficients generated from Mike's “bit perfect” frequency response template sent to REMENZ() in Matlab's Signal Processing Toolbox?
http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/
http://www.mathworks.com/help/signal/ref/firpm.html
(I'd be willing to spot you say 0.01 dB of passband response ripple)

 
“bit perfect digital filter” is as useless, irrelevant to listening as a 10 ppb THD amplifier spec
Schiit makes a big deal of not playing the spec game in one case – why give themselves the pass in the other
 
 
and as other recent posters mention, with 20 bit DAC you should be more concerned with how they are getting those 20 bits from the 24 bit input stream coming in from the source, output from a "bit perfect digital filter"
 
with a mismatch of high rez audio format and AD5791 20 bit DAC wordlength dither really is required on technical grounds – adding noise that shows up in the 19,20^th bits - how is that "bit perfect"?

 

[preproman]

No DAC or ADC truly resolves 24-bit, even if its bitperfect and doesn't "alter the bits". FYI:

I already know that.  I understand it fully.  However, why say bit perfect?  They are just putting out there the same BS the other companies are putting out there.  Instead of:
 
Schiit:
We are bit perfect up to 20 bits.  On a 24 bit file we down sample the last 4 bits to what we can account for.  Ask your self, how many of you can really hear the difference between 20 bit and 24 bits? the chances are slim to none.  We are not like othe DAC designers telling you we can account for 24 bits, the truth is we can give you a bit perfect mirror of the data stream up to 20 bits..
 
How about that for honesty? 
 
Disclaimer:  I'm purchasing the Yggy, along with the SE AMR and the Metrum Pavane.  I like to "own" multiple DACs at the same time for evaluations.

 

[soundman414]

 
I already know that.  I understand it fully.  However, why say bit perfect?  They are just putting out there the same BS the other companies are putting out there.  Instead of:
 
Schiit:
We are bit perfect up to 20 bits.  On a 24 bit file we down sample the last 4 bits to what we can account for.  Ask your self, how many of you can really hear the difference between 20 bit and 24 bits? the chances are slim to none.  We are not like othe DAC designers telling you we can account for 24 bits, the truth is we can give you a bit perfect mirror of the data stream up to 20 bits..
 
How about that for honesty? 
 
Disclaimer:  I'm purchasing the Yggy, along with the SE AMR and the Metrum Pavane.  I like to "own" multiple DACs at the same time for evaluations.

 
I like where you are going. After reading the the last dozen posts, it seems like there is a lot more to bit-rates than I previously thought and a lot of marketing hype that needs to be gotten through to see what is actually happening with the D/A process. I would love to read a white paper (a non-deity like myself could read) that explained the process from beginning to end and the hypothetical limits of the D/A process; It might be a little more coherent than cobbling together from a few posts here and there with factoids.
 
Makes me again question the validity of high-res audio over just a flac-ripped CD. 

 

 

[Baldr]

I thought I was done with high-end audio drones. You know, the types that lurk around the tower portion of the shows that take themselves so seriously. All are unflagging and emotional partisans. Any statements of dissatisfaction with the pertinent system are met with reactions from arrogant denial to outright hostility. The attitude that “everything else sucks” prevails. Armchair designers debate design aspects of devices they have never built. This arrogant attitude seems to have oozed onto this thread. It makes me wonder why I bother hang out on a thread which is all about my company's and half about my own products. I have seen comments directed at a variety of folks on this thread which are juvenile, vituperative, and just plain mean. Stop bullying!
 
I am in this non-high end audio endeavor because I love it. I am singularly fortunate to be able to work in the field of my dreams, encompassing the hobby I enjoy so much. I have found a group of fellow audio hobbyists with which to enjoy a common passion.
 
Perhaps all of you armchair designers could start a wannabe designer's thread so you may pop your zits at each other rather than stink up this one. I will reveal more aspects of the design of my products on the appropriate threads as long as it does not continue to draw too many flies. I will not be engaged in design debates online. My anonymity has long been broken on this forum. Those who have a desire to query or debate me in design areas may look me up at meets and RMAF in person, if they have they courage to do so when not hiding behind an avatar. Until then, grow up!

 

[subtle]

  I thought I was done with high-end audio drones. You know, the types that lurk around the tower portion of the shows that take themselves so seriously. All are unflagging and emotional partisans. Any statements of dissatisfaction with the pertinent system are met with reactions from arrogant denial to outright hostility. The attitude that “everything else sucks” prevails. Armchair designers debate design aspects of devices they have never built. This arrogant attitude seems to have oozed onto this thread. It makes me wonder why I bother hang out on a thread which is all about my company's and half about my own products. I have seen comments directed at a varietyof  folks on this thread which are juvenile, vituperative, and just plain mean. Stop bullying!
 
I am in this non-high end audio endeavor because I love it. I am singularly fortunate to be able to work in the field of my dreams, encompassing the hobby I enjoy so much. I have found a group of fellow audio hobbyists with which to enjoy a common passion.
 
Perhaps all of you armchair designers could start a wannabe designer's thread so you may pop your zits at each other rather than stink up this one. I will reveal more aspects of the design of my products on the appropriate threads as long as it does not continue to draw too many flies. I will not be engaged in design debates online. My anonymity has long been broken on this forum. Those who have a desire to query or debate me in design areas may look me up at meets and RMAF in person, if they have they courage to do so when not hiding behind an avatar. Until then, grow up!

 

 

[Rem0o]

 
You can always get a 24-bit ODAC if you think they are full of Schiit.

Not to start another debate, but the guy behind the ODAC was clear about the fact it doesn't have 24 bits of resolution, more like 18-19 bits of effective resolution (111 db).