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New Schiit! Ragnarok and Yggdrasil

Discussion in 'High-end Audio Forum' started by Stalker81598, Jun 11, 2013.
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  1. blitzxgene
    Every input. External converters seem to be completely unnecessary for the Yggy/don't make a difference. I believe it is mentioned in another thread here on head-fi, but the Yggy punches virtually every dac in the face quite hard. I'd recommend that you wait for it to come out and read reviews from other head-fiers, but I've followed certain head-fi members about this for long enough that I'm convinced. Mike and Jason know what they are doing from all accounts.
     
  2. preproman
     
    [​IMG]
     
  3. InsanityOne
    I definitely understand what you mean about Mike, and as for the Bryston... That is definitely interesting... Maybe as technology gets better my opinion on USB will change as well?
     
     
     
    I guess I will have to wait for it then, reviews are always quite insightful here at Head-Fi. With them being on production version 0.99 and 1.00 being the final version hopefully we will be seeing some real reviews soon! [​IMG]
     
  4. Baldr
    The below are the claims of the Digital Filter/Interpolator/Sample Rate Converter in the Yggy:
     
    1. The filter is absolutely proprietary.
    2. The development tools and coefficient calculator to derive the above filters are also proprietary.
    3. The math involved in developing the filter and calculating has a closed form solution. It is not an approximation, as all other filters I have studied (most, if not all of them). Therefore, all of the original samples are output. This could be referred to fairly as bit perfect; what comes in goes out.
    4. Oversimplified, however essentially correct: The filter is also time domain optimized which means the phase info in the original samples are averaged in the time domain with the filter generated interpolated samples to for corrected minimum phase shift as a function of frequency from DC to the percentage of nyquist - in our case .968. Time domain is well defined at DC - the playback device behaves as a window fan at DC - it either blows (in phase) or sucks (out). It is our time domain optimization that gives the uncanny sonic hologram that only Thetas and Yggys do. (It also allows the filter to disappear. Has to be heard to understand.) Since lower frequency wavelengths are measured in tens of feet, placement in image gets increasingly wrong as a function of decreasing frequency in non time domain optimized recordings - these keep the listener's ability to hear the venue - not to mention the sum of all of the phase errors in the microphones, mixing boards, eq, etc on the record side. An absolute phase switch is of little to no value in a non time domain optimized, stochastic time domain replay system. It makes a huge difference with an Yggy
    5. This is combined with a frequency domain optimization which does not otherwise affect the phase optimization. The 0.968 of nyquist also gives us a small advantage that none of the off-the shelf FIR filters (0.907) provide: frequency response out to 21.344KHz, 42.688KHz, 85.3776KHz, and 170.5772KHz bandwidth for native 1,2,4, and 8x 44.1KHz SR multiple recordings - the 48KHz table is 23.232, 46.464, 92.868, and 185.856KHz respectively for 1,2,4, and 8x. This was the portion of the filter that had the divide by zero problem which John Lediaev worked out in 1983, to combine with #4 above AND retain the original samples.
     
    This is what the competition offers:
    5. Frequency domain optimization FIR filters with Parks-McClellan optimization. The development tools for these types of filters can be downloaded for a price range of free to $300 on the internet. Parks-McClellan is the goto filter optimization for audio design. These filters are derived with no closed form math; only successive approximation. The original samples are lost. The output is approximated. An educated guess. This optimization is ubiquitous in the front end of delta sigma dacs as well as standalone digital filters. While there is no inherent phase shift within Parks-McClellan filters, there is no optimization of phase either. The listener is left with what remains from the mixing boards, transducers, brick-wall filters, etc which can and usually do destroy proper phase/position information. Finally, it is processor efficient and economical to implement. Read cheap.
     
    Any avoidance of the Parks-McClellan pablum requires a lot of original DSP work. Am I a prophet who received the tablets from God or some other high-end audio drivel. Hell, no. I was the producer and director of this project and worked with Dave Kerstetter (hardware-software), John Lediaev (Math), Tom Lippiat (DSP Code), Warren Goldman (Coefficient Generator and development tools) for a total of 15 or so man years. These folks either taught math at The University of Iowa, Computer Science at Carnegie-Mellon University, worked at think tanks like the Rand Corporation – you get the idea. We did this for no money - What we all had in common was that we loved audio. All other audio pros were interested in Parks-McClellan and pointed and laughed at us. That's the way it happened.
    It was worth it, every hour, day, and year. So go for it if you want. For what it is, it is not a lot of money.
     
    Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor page on Head-Fi.
     
    https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/ http://www.schiit.com/
  5. estreeter
    Thanks Mike - unlike some here, the US sticker has never been an issue for me. The DiY crowd will often point to a component, itemise the parts cost and tell you that they could build the same or better for a tenth of the price : I'd dearly love to hear from anyone who makes the same claims re Yggy. Like the FPGA DACs, the chip is a mere building block : it's clear that you've literally put years of effort into this and I wish the team every success. 
     
    mhamel and reddog like this.
  6. yuki96
    You've got my attention Mike! I'm not even going to bother testing a Yggdrasil...I'm gonna pull the trigger as soon as it launches! (Granted I have cash saved up of course! [​IMG])
     
    This will probably be the greatest DAC that the world has ever seen so far.
     
  7. goldendarko
    Isn't there a DAC that costs like $100k? Certainly don't think this will surpass that one, I will be curious to know how it stacks up to similarly priced DACs like my Auralic Vega.
     
  8. MoatsArt
    Be wary of judging performance based on price.
     
    mhamel and FrivolsListener like this.
  9. johnjen
    Wholey Schiidt, "15 or so man years".
     
    That's a whole bunch of effort for just 5 guys.
     
    There are so many 'hot buttons' that are being set on fire by these peeks into the innerds, of this VERY different approach.
     
    All I can see in my minds eye is Homer simpson drooling…
     
    This is gunna be epic…
     
    JJ  :thumb
     
  10. goldendarko
     


    For the most part I agree but when your talking $100k vs. $2k I would certainly expect one to outperform the other
     
  11. reddog
    +1 well said.
     
  12. johnjen
    So, just curious what you'd think if the 2K$ stomps or at least exceeds the 100K$ device(s).
     
    Cause what I'm seeing is not just giant killer, but a whole new window into music.
    How many other DACs (regardless of price) have evoked an emotional response before?
     
    That is, if my spidey sense can be trusted… [​IMG]
     
    JJ
     
  13. goldendarko
    I think the hype train is getting a bit out of hand for the Yggdrasil, when I start hearing phrases like "a whole new window into music" I usually check myself out. Let's just see how this thing sounds compared to comparable DAC's in it's price class and not expect it to compete with $100,000 DAC's for the uber rich.
     
  14. Argo Duck
    Thoughts:
    1. Hype and performance almost certainly don't correlate. That is, the presence of a hype train doesn't mean the equipment is that good - or that it isn't
    2. Hype trains get out of hand by definition
    3. I shall read the Head-fi Yggdrasil-versus-$100K-DAC review with interest (but I won't be the reviewer)
    4. I shall read any and all other comparisons with interest as well especially if they are not "comparable" (similar, of equivalent quality)
     
    yuki96 likes this.
  15. preproman

    The DAC is already great before people even hear it.  It's like a few people "TOLD" you'll what to hear, and you heard it already without hearing it.  Shaking my head..  Funny
     
    skeptic likes this.
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