New Schiit! Ragnarok and Yggdrasil
May 7, 2015 at 2:56 PM Post #6,991 of 9,484
  1. What are the stats on the Yggy fuse assuming someone wanted to order an audiophile replacement?

2. Is there any hardware and/or software that can analyze a track (e.g., .wav, .flac, etc.) and tell you if it is 0 or 180 absolute phase?

3. Is there any way to extract PCM data from a PC better (e.g,, least amount of conversions, cleaner, etc.) than via a USB stream? Not that I disagree with Mike's research/opinions, but if the source is a PC, then I am not sure there is a better option than USB stream.

 
Not sure about #1, ask @Jason Stoddard. Not sure about number 2 as well. For number three, there was an interesting article about using the Corning optical USB cable measurably reduced noise at the DAC output on a guy's setup. That being siad, the cable is a) really long and b) not exactly cheap for something so fragile.
 
May 7, 2015 at 3:03 PM Post #6,992 of 9,484
  1. What are the stats on the Yggy fuse assuming someone wanted to order an audiophile replacement?

2. Is there any hardware and/or software that can analyze a track (e.g., .wav, .flac, etc.) and tell you if it is 0 or 180 absolute phase?

3. Is there any way to extract PCM data from a PC better (e.g,, least amount of conversions, cleaner, etc.) than via a USB stream? Not that I disagree with Mike's research/opinions, but if the source is a PC, then I am not sure there is a better option than USB stream.

Great questions !!
 
Not 100% sure what you mean… however several 'players' convert DSD to PCM well, such as JRiver..
 
David
 
May 7, 2015 at 3:18 PM Post #6,993 of 9,484
Originally Posted by Zorlac /img/forum/go_quote.gif
...

2. Is there any hardware and/or software that can analyze a track (e.g., .wav, .flac, etc.) and tell you if it is 0 or 180 absolute phase?

....

In the old times there were test CD's around with signals "in phase" with accurate, easy to locate sound sources and "out of phase" signals which make it nearly impossible to locate the source. If you hear it this way your system is properly set up. If you have it just the other way around then your system is out of phase. I trust that similar test signal can be found online nowadays
wink.gif
.
 
May 7, 2015 at 4:07 PM Post #6,994 of 9,484
Those test discs were displaying one speaker out of phase with the other.  What is discussed here is absolute phase.  Both channels one way or the other.  There is no test that I know of that can discern absolute phase except your ear.  In fact certain instruments can be in one phase and others out of phase on the same song.  If the mic preamp used on the main voice is inverting then the voice is out of phase with the other instruments.  The better the system and the better the source (recorded naturally) then the easier it is to notice absolute phase.  No need to get all that excited.  Just try it and listen.  If it sounds better on a certain song one way, then so be it.  If you do not notice anything then you have less to mess with. 
 
If you have a balanced headphone amp and it has two sets of stereo output jacks then you can wire one set out of phase to the other and A/B and listen to the phase difference done at the headphone output level rather than done digitally.  Might make more difference.
 
May 7, 2015 at 4:18 PM Post #6,996 of 9,484
  Those test discs were displaying one speaker out of phase with the other.  What is discussed here is absolute phase.  Both channels one way or the other.  There is no test that I know of that can discern absolute phase except your ear.  In fact certain instruments can be in one phase and others out of phase on the same song.  If the mic preamp used on the main voice is inverting then the voice is out of phase with the other instruments.  The better the system and the better the source (recorded naturally) then the easier it is to notice absolute phase.  No need to get all that excited.  Just try it and listen.  If it sounds better on a certain song one way, then so be it.  If you do not notice anything then you have less to mess with. 
 
If you have a balanced headphone amp and it has two sets of stereo output jacks then you can wire one set out of phase to the other and A/B and listen to the phase difference done at the headphone output level rather than done digitally.  Might make more difference.

Nicely explained Ric
 
May 7, 2015 at 5:59 PM Post #7,001 of 9,484
  Ah I see, the feet on it just barely make it, as amalgamist said.
 
Interesting.. I may pay a visit to IKEA tomorrow for a quick project I had been putting off for a while.

   
It just clears.  But I like it since it's mesh it doesn't trap heat like a rack would.

 
Stopped by IKEA today and made this out of some parts from there. It's the CAPITA legs with the EKBY wall shelf (comes in different sizes and depths). I bought enough for 2 stands, I think I'm going to make one for my laptop too, should be more space efficient than my current setup.
 

 

 
May 7, 2015 at 6:12 PM Post #7,002 of 9,484
3. Is there any way to extract PCM data from a PC better (e.g,, least amount of conversions, cleaner, etc.) than via a USB stream? Not that I disagree with Mike's research/opinions, but if the source is a PC, then I am not sure there is a better option than USB stream.

 
PCM is digital data - so during transport via USB there is a pretty significant amount of error correction going on if any of the data doesn't reach its destination will be retransmitted. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Data_packets) To be very clear a packet will fail the CRC check if even one bit is flipped, the data must be 100% the same. Generally if your USB cable is good your going to basically get 100% success rates for data transmission.  If you are having frequent errors it will manifest its self in very very obvious ways such as device disconnects.
 
If you want to be very technical you can read about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle you can understand how it is possible for data to be invalid and pass the CRC check.  The CRC is a 16-bit hash.
 
The real challenge for data transmission however for what is in essence a real-time data application is clocking - When is it appropriate to covert a piece of data into an analog signal.  This is why we read so much about re-clocking in DACs and Transports.  If your unable to clock the data correctly it doesn't matter how good your PCM stream is, the music is going to sound like crap because the timing won't be right.
 
Now you may ask if USB is so great why do we need a Wyrd?  Your right it is odd - the short answer is power.  For data to be transmitted through an medium it must have a carrier - in this case its an electrical signal.  In general we have a baseline voltage and then a higher voltage, the baseline is 0 while the higher is 1.  If there is a power fluctuation in the USB cable during transmission this is what can cause a bit or bits to flip causing missing data resulting in distortion.  Again in normal situations such as a USB drive the receiver will simply not ACK(Acknowledge) the data packet and it will be retransmitted by the sender but since this is real time that data can be ignored.
 
But wait!
 
There is yet one more challenge when it comes to digital to analog conversion.  As electricity moves through mediums such as copper, silver, or gold it does not move at the speed of light - it moves at some fraction of the speed of light know as its Velocity Factor.  If a very high quality DAC the creators will want to match the speeds of the various feeds to output at the exact same time so that the phase of each channel or even frequency(depending on how the DAC is setup) are in line.  Generally this is very close but those with more critical ears may hear the difference.
 
The end up however is really - what we are paying for in a DAC while it is the DAC chips and everything that goes along there we are also paying for the analog portion of the DAC that outputs line level into our pure analog components.  A DAC with a PCM9001UberMinsc with a crappy analog stage could sound just as bad as a DAC with Joes Bargin DAC with an awesome analog stage.  Everything must match.  
 
With the Yggdrasil since the analog stage outputs +4dBV we have a much lower sound floor which is part of the reason it sounds so good(to my ears)
 
The answer to your original question however is this.  S/PDIF and TOSLINK both do not have error correction and as a result are unable to compensate or even know about any errors.  That being said - again remember audio is real time so would you rather have slightly corrupted data into your DAC or missing data into your DAC?  For me its simple - i'd rather have missing data.  I can hear missing data much more easily than a single-bit error and make corrections to my system. 
 
tl;dr: no not really
 
May 7, 2015 at 6:25 PM Post #7,003 of 9,484
HI Cipher!  Long time no see!   I am working up a game plan on USB.  I am sure it is my setup.  I have a Wyrd USB decrapifier and, JCAT USB with the CIAudio 5V supply to try.  I'll tackle it this coming weekend as I have to open the PC case to strap power on the JCAT board.

Bingo!  You are hearing exactly what I am experiencing with the Master 7.   Compared to the Yggy the Master 7 has a wide soundstage but it is not very deep.  And yes the Master 7 vocals can be edgier and with slightly more hissy sibilance.   And even with a few hours I can hear more in the mix with the Yggy and that is helping the depth realization.   Helping the depth also is the vocals on the Master 7 can be recessed in comparison.  The Yggy seems like it though leaner sounding but definitely more nimble with better finesse.  The Master 7 is big and bold in the bass to lower midrange region which adds nice body to electric guitars, pianos, etc.  I would like some of that in the Yggy.  But I do like what I am hearing in the Yggy at the 11 hr.mark.

I really like the Off Ramp 5 HDMI I2S into the Master 7 but didn't think much of its coax S/PDIF connection at the time.  So anxious to try USB.  One thing with the OR5 S/PDIF connection is I can't jump tracks with differing sampling rates and get a clean start on the next track.  The Yggy mute relay kicks in for 1/2 sec. and chops off the beginning of the track.  If the next track has the same sampling rate then no problem.


Thanks for the M7 to Yggy comps. Looking forward to hearing more as you break in your Yggy. I'm guessing I'm not the only M7 owner unsure of whether the Yggy is a big enough upgrade to justify an order.
 
May 7, 2015 at 6:29 PM Post #7,004 of 9,484
  No problem...just trying to access how much listening time you have on Yggy and on what system.  I'm not posting anything yet --- and I have no context at all to compare Yggy to in any case.   Clearly better than Gungnir by a lot (that's not a difficult call, can't understand how anybody could not hear that), but that's not a surprise.   So I'm happy so far...main frustration is that I can't get the Win 7 driver to install, probably due to a failure to have the old Schiit driver to uninstall cleanly.  Tried lots of things (including unstalling all usb drivers and messing with files in the driver store, and messing with automatic driver install settings, may end up with a fresh Win 7 install (which is pretty typical for me every three years or so...).

One thing to try is to 'clean up' your registry.
 
This will remove the remanats of the old drivers.
 
Just a thought.
 
JJ
 
May 7, 2015 at 6:53 PM Post #7,005 of 9,484
 
HI Cipher!  Long time no see!   I am working up a game plan on USB.  I am sure it is my setup.  I have a Wyrd USB decrapifier and, JCAT USB with the CIAudio 5V supply to try.  I'll tackle it this coming weekend as I have to open the PC case to strap power on the JCAT board.
 
Bingo!  You are hearing exactly what I am experiencing with the Master 7.   Compared to the Yggy the Master 7 has a wide soundstage but it is not very deep.  And yes the Master 7 vocals can be edgier and with slightly more hissy sibilance.   And even with a few hours I can hear more in the mix with the Yggy and that is helping the depth realization.   Helping the depth also is the vocals on the Master 7 can be recessed in comparison.  The Yggy seems like it though leaner sounding but definitely more nimble with better finesse.  The Master 7 is big and bold in the bass to lower midrange region which adds nice body to electric guitars, pianos, etc.  I would like some of that in the Yggy.  But I do like what I am hearing in the Yggy at the 11 hr.mark.
 
I really like the Off Ramp 5 HDMI I2S into the Master 7 but didn't think much of its coax S/PDIF connection at the time.  So anxious to try USB.  One thing with the OR5 S/PDIF connection is I can't jump tracks with differing sampling rates and get a clean start on the next track.  The Yggy mute relay kicks in for 1/2 sec. and chops off the beginning of the track.  If the next track has the same sampling rate then no problem.

 
I am around the 120 mark and the Yggy is starting to get some of that bass grunt that it lacks in comparison to the Master 7 except that it is a little bit cleaner and tighter.  Its losing tiny bit of of its politeness in the upper midrange and treble but there is still no sibilance or edge to the vocals or treble.  Its just a hair bit more dynamic.  A day ago the Master 7 was kicking its but in the dynamics department but now I think the Yggy is superior since it does the quiet passages better.  This warm up stuff is crazy, I wouldn't have believed it if I had not been comparing the Yggy to the M7 each day.  
 

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