[maverickronin]

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you seem to be biased over the DT1350, nothing worng with that, but i dont think you can know hoe it sound by watching the graphics, give them a try if you can, who knows you might like them!

Actually you can tell a lot about something will sound from the graphs, it just takes some work.  You've got to listen to a bunch of stuff first and compare your subjective impressions to the data and look for similarities among what you like and what you don't like.  It sure won't tell you everything, but short of living next to a place like 32 Ohm its the best you're likely to get before having to spend some money on it first.  I find graphs many times more useful than subjective reviews.
 
Of course I'd still like to try an HD25.  I just don't think they look promising enough to pay the usual street price so its on my list of things to troll for bargains on.  I tried to buy one when that Best Buy sale came up recently but I was too late. Maybe I'll be surprised.  Even if I'm not, it will be another data to refine my interpretation of the graph data.
 
I'm not trying to dis the HD25.  That would be silly since I've never heard it.  I can however easily say based on the huge differences in measurements its blindingly obvious which one is closer to other 'phones I've heard and liked.
 
Of course my actual question was about tailoring sound sig to music genres and that applies to other "pairs" of 'phones as well...

 

[metalsonata]

 
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I missed this one before.  Do genre preferences and preferred sound sigs really match up like that for most people?  These days I mostly listen to metal and Jpop but if you go by what many people recommend on here for specific genres you'd never guess it from my most of my preferred headphones like the DT1350s, Shure SE530s, and former favorite HD650s.
 
I see all kinds of people recommending the HD25s over the DT1350s for pop/rock/metal and while I've never heard the HD25s I can tell from studying the graphs and correlating them to my subjective impressions of other 'phones I have heard that I will, with an overwhelming probability, prefer the DT1350s over them despite the fact that the majority of my music falls into the "wrong" genre for them.  I bought the DT1350s based almost entirely on Tyll's measurements of them and I wasn't disappointed.
 
I guess my question is am I really the one in the minority or does head-fi provide me with a skewed pool of samples?

I dunno, I'm sort of half with you and half not. I do think that some headphones simply do present various genres more appealingly than do others. I wouldn't say that any headphones I've got significant listening time on do a particular genre a massive disservice--but I do think that even within my small stable of headphones I'm considerably more likely to reach for the HD650s when listening to electronica (does anyone call it that anymore?) than I am the K701s. Listening to electronica on the K701s does have some joys, but the HD650s simply have more. Vice versa with, say, acoustic guitar. Acoustic guitar does sound great on the HD650--I think it sounds greater on the K701.
 
EQing headphones does roughly bring headphones to the same level insofar as genre-range is concerned ('roughly' because there are plenty of things about a headphone's character that EQing can't 'fix,' of course). I'm not the best EQer so I tend to steer clear of it--if I do it at all I do it to only accent the positive characteristics of a particular headphone's sound signature, as opposed to filling in voids in performance--which, of course, serves typically to just make my headphones sound even more different from one another. Do you do a lot of EQing? If so, perhaps that's part of the reason why one headphone sort of fits all with regards to your genre hopping?
 
As for headphone graphs--they don't lie, of course, but they also don't always represent totally what my ears hear. I pay attention to them, especially when doing a trial EQ setting, but to this point I've preferred to base my headphone purchases off of the majority subjective reactions of others.
 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

I dunno, I'm sort of half with you and half not. I do think that some headphones simply do present various genres more appealingly than do others. I wouldn't say that any headphones I've got significant listening time on do a particular genre a massive disservice--but I do think that even within my small stable of headphones I'm considerably more likely to reach for the HD650s when listening to electronica (does anyone call it that anymore?) than I am the K701s. Listening to electronica on the K701s does have some joys, but the HD650s simply have more. Vice versa with, say, acoustic guitar. Acoustic guitar does sound great on the HD650--I think it sounds greater on the K701.

I still call it electronica because it AFIK encompasses so many different sub-genres that I have no idea how to break down or define.
 
I understand how different headphones have different strengths and weakness and that some of those might lend themselves to certain genres or at least the way you prefer certain genres.  What I find is that other factors are likely to be more important to me.  There are factors that I prefer across nearly all genres and certain flaws will easily ruin a 'phone for me no matter what else I like about it.  For example I think that the Grado SR325is are very "fun" with metal but since all the treble hurts my ears after half an album anything it does right is irrelevant to me.

 

[metalsonata]

 
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I still call it electronica because it AFIK encompasses so many different sub-genres that I have no idea how to break down or define.
 
I understand how different headphones have different strengths and weakness and that some of those might lend themselves to certain genres or at least the way you prefer certain genres.  What I find is that other factors are likely to be more important to me.  There are factors that I prefer across nearly all genres and certain flaws will easily ruin a 'phone for me no matter what else I like about it.  For example I think that the Grado SR325is are very "fun" with metal but since all the treble hurts my ears after half an album anything it does right is irrelevant to me.

Kk, in that case, I'm all the way with you--I think we are saying the same thing, only differently, and we just draw different conclusions about headphone genre-range.
 

 

[productred]

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It's like you're reading my mind.

 


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I do not find the review particularly flatering. He seems to have quite a balanced opinion on these.
 
On the other hand I just can't agree with him on certain points. One of them, for instance, is bass extension. There is simply no way on earth the DT 1350 extends less than the HD-25-1. Tyll's measurements are quite clear about this (and so my own experience of the two). I also strongly disagree about his comments on soundstage and imaging. Hell, I just couldn't do with most portable headphones and classical music until I tried the DT 1350.
 
I quite agree with him about tonal accuracy, but only when underamped. I tried the DT 1350 with a portable amp, and it lost its slight metallic coloration. Also, I'll soon receive a TTVJ Slim.
 
However, I'd be much less forgiving about the build quality of the Beyers, which I found not that fantastic. Materials seem noble, but the assembly isn't very precise IMHO.

Exactly what I'm thinking, both the pros on sound and cons on build. The DT1350 isn't that picky on amps, but it does need some decent power. 
 

 

[DigitalFreak]

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Exactly what I'm thinking, both the pros on sound and cons on build. The DT1350 isn't that picky on amps, but it does need some decent power. 
 

I highly respect Mike and his reviews on Headphonia but I can't seem to make heads or tails of his article. First it sounds like he loves the 1350's to death then he suddenly does a 180 and seems to hate them. What really made me question the article was the blurb concerning bass. I own both the HD 251-II and the DT 1350 and the 1350's has by far deeper and more detailed bass. In my opinion it's not even a close comparison when comparing the bass of these two cans. The only two things I think the HD 25-1 II has over the 1350 sonically is as far as genre mixing goes it's a far better all arounder and it does treble better.
 

 

[metalsonata]

 
Quote:

I highly respect Mike and his reviews on Headphonia but I can't seem to make heads or tails of his article. First it sounds like he loves the 1350's to death then he suddenly does a 180 and seems to hate them. What really made me question the article was the blurb concerning bass. I own both the HD 251-II and the DT 1350 and the 1350's has by far deeper and more detailed bass. In my opinion it's not even a close comparison when comparing the bass of these two cans. The only two things I think the HD 25-1 II has over the 1350 sonically is as far as genre mixing goes it's a far better all arounder and it does treble better.
 

Speaking to your first sentence--Mike is a pretty fine reviewer, but typically his reviews of products with which I'm familiar always contain at least one What? moment for me. It seems to be happening more and more frequently as time marches on, alas.

 

[MayaTlab]

Quote:

I highly respect Mike and his reviews on Headphonia but I can't seem to make heads or tails of his article. First it sounds like he loves the 1350's to death then he suddenly does a 180 and seems to hate them. What really made me question the article was the blurb concerning bass. I own both the HD 251-II and the DT 1350 and the 1350's has by far deeper and more detailed bass. In my opinion it's not even a close comparison when comparing the bass of these two cans. The only two things I think the HD 25-1 II has over the 1350 sonically is as far as genre mixing goes it's a far better all arounder and it does treble better.
 

 
I totally accept his comments about soundstage, as there isn't any reliable way to measure it objectively (even though saying the HD-25 has better imaging certainly goes against the thrend here), but his comment about bass extension is just plain wrong. On the other hand they're a reason why, without the help of graphs, he might have a hard time perceiving this. Indeed, I find the HD-25 bass reproduction to be punchier than the Beyer. And we all know lower frequencies are rather felt than heard. He might have just mistaken the increased impact for a better extension.
 
But it's all mainly subjective anyway - you just said the HD-25 is 1) a better all-rounder (I disagree ! ) and 2) has better trebles (I also disagree ! ). For the first, IMHO the only genre the HD-25 does invariably better than the DT 1350 is dirty, badly recorded rock and all its derivatives (badly recorded metal, etc.- mostly because I prefer the slightly stronger bass impact of the Senn here). For other genres, I think it depends on wether the recording is good or not (my enjoyment of the DT 1350 increases as recording quality increases, which is not the same for me with the HD-25), and certain genres the DT 1350 simply does better (classical music - which I find absolutely unlistenable on the HD-25 and decently correct on the DT 1350). As far as 2) goes, I think the DT 1350 does trebles better because I find them not as grainy as the HD-25 ones, more controlled and precise, and with a stronger sense of space and air.
 

 

[DigitalFreak]

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I totally accept his comments about soundstage, as there isn't any reliable way to measure it objectively (even though saying the HD-25 has better imaging certainly goes against the thrend here), but his comment about bass extension is just plain wrong. On the other hand they're a reason why, without the help of graphs, he might have a hard time perceiving this. Indeed, I find the HD-25 bass reproduction to be punchier than the Beyer. And we all know lower frequencies are rather felt than heard. He might have just mistaken the increased impact for a better extension.
 
But it's all mainly subjective anyway - you just said the HD-25 is 1) a better all-rounder (I disagree ! ) and 2) has better trebles (I also disagree ! ). For the first, IMHO the only genre the HD-25 does invariably better than the DT 1350 is dirty, badly recorded rock and all its derivatives (badly recorded metal, etc.- mostly because I prefer the slightly stronger bass impact of the Senn here). For other genres, I think it depends on wether the recording is good or not (my enjoyment of the DT 1350 increases as recording quality increases, which is not the same for me with the HD-25), and certain genres the DT 1350 simply does better (classical music - which I find absolutely unlistenable on the HD-25 and decently correct on the DT 1350). As far as 2) goes, I think the DT 1350 does trebles better because I find them not as grainy as the HD-25 ones, more controlled and precise, and with a stronger sense of space and air.
 

Hiya Maya nice to meet you and glad you're on the thread. I think the Senns are a better all rounder for exactly the reasons you just mentioned. My opinion is when genre mixing they do most music well enough but are masters of none and are very forgiving of source. My findings is the DT 1350's are mostly a 50/50 split with the metal I own. I know JamesMcProgger has a less rosey view when it comes to metal on the DT 1350. As for the treble I generally like the treble on the DT 1350 but still wish there was a touch more of it in certain songs. I guess you're right it comes down to personal preference.

 

[MayaTlab]

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Hiya Maya nice to meet you and glad you're on the thread. I think the Senns are a better all rounder for exactly the reasons you just mentioned. My opinion is when genre mixing they do most music well enough but are masters of none and are very forgiving of source. My findings is the DT 1350's are mostly a 50/50 split with the metal I own. I know JamesMcProgger has a less rosey view when it comes to metal on the DT 1350. As for the treble I generally like the treble on the DT 1350 but still wish there was a touch more of it in certain songs. I guess you're right it comes down to personal preference.

I admit I rarely happen to listen to metal - and you're not the only one saying the DT 1350 seem to have a weak spot there. Now, I don't enjoy the HD-25 with all genres and I personally find them plain bad with some, but granted, I'm in love with electrostatic headphones and dislike Grados with a passion , so I guess I'm incompatible with the HD-25. Still, I think it's an amazing design as it remains to this day a very fine competitor.
 
Just a thought : do you use a portable amp ? I find the DT 1350 substantially harder to drive than the HD-25. It doesn't really sound harder to drive as it remains effortless and controlled out of an iPod, but it gains body, substance, macrodynamics and sense of impact when being fed more power. In the same way that underamped electrostats remain effortless but boring. I found rock to be quite boring with the DT 1350 out of my iPhone and HM 601 (which is only barely more powerful than the iPhone), but it started to come to life with my MacBook Pro (probably more powerful than the HM 601). I'll tell you how it turns out with the TTVJ Slim, which is around 10 times more powerful than the HM 601.
 
I find the HD-25 to respond differently to amping. It remains quite punchy and substantial no matter the amp behind, but I found that it gets a little more refined and controlled as power and quality of the amp increase. That why I think it still is a better buy when used with no amp and especially for the kind of music that isn't sufficiently well recorded to display the DT 1350's strengths.

 

[Szadzik]

I have to admit I was ready to sell these. I used them with just my laptop and even though they were nice, I did not think they were nice enough to keep them.
 
Today I finally took my DACPort out of a drawer and hooked them to that using KS in foobat I have to say the results are much, much better than previously.

 

[JamesMcProgger]

 
Quote:

Speaking to your first sentence--Mike is a pretty fine reviewer, but typically his reviews of products with which I'm familiar always contain at least one What? moment for me. It seems to be happening more and more frequently as time marches on, alas.

Yeah he goes off at tangents in the second half... and suddenly HD25 out of nowhere.
 
Quote:

I highly respect Mike and his reviews on Headphonia but I can't seem to make heads or tails of his article. First it sounds like he loves the 1350's to death then he suddenly does a 180 and seems to hate them. What really made me question the article was the blurb concerning bass. I own both the HD 251-II and the DT 1350 and the 1350's has by far deeper and more detailed bass. In my opinion it's not even a close comparison when comparing the bass of these two cans. The only two things I think the HD 25-1 II has over the 1350 sonically is as far as genre mixing goes it's a far better all arounder and it does treble better.
 

Same for me. when I started reading it seemed like he was gonna smash the HD25 (and I raged) but then I read the end. and we seem to have different views here, I rather the HD25 bass, it has more impact and is actually louder without being bloated, actually far from bloated, and is actually very accurate. all this I apreciate in metal. but i like the highs in the DT1350 better, HD25 gets piercing sometimes. but to me the main issue is the guitars in the DT1350, I keep feeling they sound a bit off, specially in very fast and com¡ngested metal, is like the guitars are in a different level than the rest of the music. but I guess is all a matter of personal taste. still seems to be like I am not the only one have issues with this.
 
If it wasnt because of that pickyness in genres, I'd ditch the HD25. but so far, i think i'm keeping both.

 

[metalsonata]

 
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Yeah he goes off at tangents in the second half... and suddenly HD25 out of nowhere.
 

Same for me. when I started reading it seemed like he was gonna smash the HD25 (and I raged) but then I read the end. and we seem to have different views here, I rather the HD25 bass, it has more impact and is actually louder without being bloated, actually far from bloated, and is actually very accurate. all this I apreciate in metal. but i like the highs in the DT1350 better, HD25 gets piercing sometimes. but to me the main issue is the guitars in the DT1350, I keep feeling they sound a bit off, specially in very fast and com¡ngested metal, is like the guitars are in a different level than the rest of the music. but I guess is all a matter of personal taste. still seems to be like I am not the only one have issues with this.
 
If it wasnt because of that pickyness in genres, I'd ditch the HD25. but so far, i think i'm keeping both.

I'm tempted to pick up an HD25--as I said in my review, I felt that the DT 1350 stomped all over it where it counts (for me, at least), but I'd be interested in actually hanging onto one and A/Bing it against the DT 1350--and then probably keeping it if the two complement one another well.
 

 

[JamesMcProgger]

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Originally Posted by metalsonata /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I'm tempted to pick up an HD25--as I said in my review, I felt that the DT 1350 stomped all over it where it counts (for me, at least), but I'd be interested in actually hanging onto one and A/Bing it against the DT 1350--and then probably keeping it if the two complement one another well.
 

you have to have both, you have to have both

you have to have both, you have to have both
 

 

[metalsonata]

 
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you have to have both, you have to have both
 
you have to have both, you have to have both
 

Perhaps, but I'm also very interested in trying out a Grado or two, upgrading my Denon AHD2000 to a 5 or 7 (or an LA), and I'm edging closer to making the leap on a Thunderpants. Too many headphones... so little time and money. And I've gotta grab a better DAC for the Phonitor. x.x