New Audeze "Prototype-Z"!

[SilverEars]

 
I'd argue that a weight reduction won't necessarily compromise sound quality.
 
Hifiman did it with their HE-560, which trades blows with the LCD-3 at half the price IMO.
 
And then if you'd look at other techs, e-stats are very light, and yet they sound very very very good.

Depends on if the heavy magnets are necessary to achieve higher performance.  I believe some drivers are only one sided magnet.  
 
Anybody know what difference a dual sided vs single sided is?  
Edit, didn't see this post

Having one side of magnets increases second harmonic distortion, and I don't believe Audeze has been motivated by those goals. This is what separates them from Hifiman.

I thought HE-6 is dual sided?
 
Yes, E-stats are light since they run off field on the plates that are charged compared to heavy strong magnets used in Orthos.  
 
So, I looked into current mode amps.  Nothing special.  Useless for dynamic drivers since it has high output impedance.  It's not necessarily true the Z will need a Bakoon or current mode amp to run it's best.  Voltage amp should suffice.  Besides, the current mode is just voltage to current conversion and back to voltage again.  I think it's just marketing.  If we are talking real current source, it's infinite output impedance, not useful in audio.  In the case of amps for audio, output of the current source is changed to work with headphone or speaker load.  Current mode amp with higher output impedance reduces damping which will not affect planars, but I don't see any benefit over voltage amp since it's damping factor will not play nice with dynamics.  A good voltage amp has sufficient damping factor to work well with both dynamic drivers and planars.  You can look at it as planars being tolerant to current mode amps.
 
I fail to see why 1.2k is preferred.  Sure, it's easy on the OTL.  But, does it need to be as high as 1.2k for OTL?

 

[Rhamnetin]

 
I'd argue that a weight reduction won't necessarily compromise sound quality.
 
Hifiman did it with their HE-560, which trades blows with the LCD-3 at half the price IMO.
 
And then if you'd look at other techs, e-stats are very light, and yet they sound very very very good.

 
Electrostats aren't orthos though.  Apples vs oranges.  
 
I can't really agree that the HE-560 trades blows with the LCD-3.  It's a bit of a step down compared to the HE-6 in my opinion.

 

[Bill-P]

  Depends on if the heavy magnets are necessary to achieve higher performance.  I believe some drivers are only one sided magnet.  I know HE-6 is dual sided.  Anybody know what difference a dual sided vs signal sided is?  
 
Yes, E-stats are light since they run off field on the plates that are charged compared to heavy strong magnets used in Orthos.  
 
So, I looked into current mode amps.  Nothing special.  Useless for dynamic drivers since it has high output impedance.  It's not necessarily true the Z will need a Bakoon or current mode amp to run it's best.  Voltage amp should suffice.  Besides, the current mode is just voltage to current conversion and back to voltage again.  I think it's just marketing.  If we are talking real current source, it's infinite output impedance, not useful in audio.  In the case of amps for audio, output of the current source is changed to work with headphone or speaker load.  Current mode amp with higher output impedance reduces damping which will not affect planars, but I don't see any benefit over voltage amp since it's damping factor will not play nice with dynamics.  A good voltage amp has sufficient damping factor to work well with both dynamic drivers and planars.  You can look at it as planars being tolerant to current mode amps.
 
I fail to see why 1.2k is preferred.  Sure, it's easy on the OTL.  But, does it need to be as high as 1.2k for OTL?

 
Dual-sided means there are magnets lining the enclosure on both sides of the diaphragm. This gives better control of the diaphragm, but it obstructs the diaphragm and makes the rest of the acoustical analysis harder. Especially at higher frequencies due to multiple-slit interference and diffraction. That's why adding fazors to their headphones (which is essentially just rounding off the edges of the magnet array) made such a good improvement to high frequency response on Audeze's headphones.
 
Single-sided means there are magnets only on one side of the diaphragm. That means if there is any acoustical interference, it'll only come from one side. This potentially makes it harder to control the diaphragm (but in practice can be sort of mitigated by pushing more power), but the acoustical improvements and also comfort improvements outweigh the slight loss of control, as evident by the positive response to the HE-560.
 
E-stats are lighter because they don't have magnets, yes, but then they also have somewhat superior acoustical properties because there are less things blocking the diaphragm. And they require an insane amount of voltage to operate (typically many times higher than any dynamic design), so technically the same "push more powah" problem as above.
 
But I think comfort is the forefront of the discussion here. So if that was the only thing on the table, I'd think it'd be great for Audeze to try some cool ideas out other than just increasing the impedance of the headphone.
 
Talking about which, planar magnetic headphones are generally much less affected by the output impedance of an amp, so they won't be affected by high output impedance. So I'm not sure what the point is for the 1200-Ohm impedance for this headphone either... except to perhaps let it play well directly out of the taps of high-power speaker amps.
 
And a current amp would work in a different principle than a voltage amp. Let's just say... damping factor isn't the same problem here. But I agree... they are more for marketing than anything else.
 
For headphones, a well-designed voltage amp can sound plenty good.
 

  Electrostats aren't orthos though.  Apples vs oranges.  
 
I can't really agree that the HE-560 trades blows with the LCD-3.  It's a bit of a step down compared to the HE-6 in my opinion.

 
But orthos are to orthos, right? And the HE-560 is at least more comfortable than all of the orthos that came before it.
 
And it's my opinions (and some others') that the HE-560 trade blows with the LCD-3. The HE-6 actually measures slightly worse than the HE-560, and it is also my opinions that I agree with the measurements in this case. That is... in stock form, I'd take the HE-560 over the HE-6 any day.
 
Not to mention it's also more efficient than the HE-6.

 

[SilverEars]

 
And a current amp would work in a different principle than a voltage amp. Let's just say... damping factor isn't the same problem here. But I agree... they are more for marketing than anything else.
 

I've read this couple times.  Why is this the case?  I've seen headphone measured out in current mode, and you see the same affect of reduced electrical damping affect on it with boosted bass with reactive drivers.  Didn't see distortion measurements, but likely distortions would increase also from the damping factor. 

 

[Bill-P]

  I've read this couple times.  Why is this the case?  I've seen headphone measured out in current mode, and you see the same affect of reduced electrical damping affect on it with boosted bass with reactive drivers.  Didn't see distortion measurements, but likely distortions would increase also from the damping factor. 

Well, in principle, a voltage amp is affected by output impedance because from the perspective of the amp, output impedance is also seen as a load. But the total load impedance would vary with the load because the impedance of the headphone is not flat, and so the extra output impedance makes it "harder" for the amp to approximate how much power it needs to deliver, and so it needs to deliver more than usual to compensate, and then you get boosted peaks in the frequency response depending on the impedance of the headphone. Note that orthos generally have flat impedance, so they don't follow this pattern. A 22-Ohm ortho would still play nice with a 120-Ohm tube amp... but then the problem would be that the tube amp may not be able to deliver enough current at higher volumes, and then it starts clipping. When that happens, things can get quite ugly. So at low volume, orthos are still fine out of OTL tube amps IMO.
 
I haven't used a current amp, or looked into the principles of one to be able to say conclusively if that's the case, but if it's as you say... that they're doing voltage-current-voltage output, then in the end, we're just dealing with a high-power voltage source rather than a true current source. So the same output impedance problem applies.
 
That's also why I'd agree it's more for marketing than anything else.

 

[money4me247]

How can you reduce weight and not sacrifice sound? Magnets, housing, and a stiff chassis to reduce resonance cannot be compromised. Are we audiophiles, or casual listeners with expensive tastes? What is the target of Audeze?

 
I don't think there is a real correlation between weight of headphones and sound quality. Also, for double vs side sided magnets, there are pros and cons to both methods. I think it is definitely possible to increase comfort without sacrificing sound through something as simple as a new suspension headband design. In regards to weight, there are alternative materials that can be used that may even prove to be beneficial for sound quality after some tuning.
 
I agree there shouldn't be any compromise to the sound, but not addressing comfort issues is just lazy engineering. I would venture to say that the majority of TOTL flagships have stellar comfort along with their high quality sonics. If you incorporate comfort considerations into the design and make that aspect a priority from the start, there doesn't need to be any sonic compromises.
 
edit: I think from the looks of their new prototype, Audeze is going in the right direction. Headphones with great sonic deserve to be comfortable enough to wear for extended periods of time and physical discomfort distracting from listening enjoyment is terrible for both audiophiles & casual listeners.

 

[Articnoise]

   
Electrostats aren't orthos though.  Apples vs oranges.  
 
I can't really agree that the HE-560 trades blows with the LCD-3.  It's a bit of a step down compared to the HE-6 in my opinion.

 
+1

 

[groovyd]

I think with a more efficient driver it should be possible to reduce the magnet size (thin it out perhaps) and acheive the same performance if not better then the current design.  The thought being with a reduction in the magnet it allows more airflow through the magnets vents and less disturbance by the magnet structure itself means less need for the fat fazors again reducing mass.  Typically in optimization type designs improving upon one factor (diaphragm efficiency in this case) demands a complete redesign of all components around it which all add up to even better performance and savings.
 
My feeling about carbon fiber vs aluminum for the ear cups is that it is a stiffer material per unit mass.  This means you can make the cups thinner and lighter and still acheive higher stiffness which would help tighten up the bass response and prevent housing vibrations.  Carbon fiber is also better at absorbing vibration then aluminum which rings more.
 
Perhaps changing all of this in one shot is too much engineering work but I do believe it would all add up to a better headphone, better sound and lighter more comfortable.  I would still put my money on the table though for just the improved driver they are claiming and the improved headband with no other changes to the earcups themselves.  I'm ready to buy both open and closed versions of their next flagship including the Audeze OTL amp if self branded and tuned specifically to drive these headphones.  Infact I would buy 2 amps, one for home and one for work.

 

[magiccabbage]

  .  Infact I would buy 2 amps, one for home and one for work.

Sure buy me one while your at it. 

 

[groovyd]

  Sure buy me one while your at it. 

I would have an amp or two to sell to you

 

[Taowolf51]

   
Anything above that 1k mark, everything has to be right for me to consider it now. Hifiman and Audeze were fun, but their weight and design was seriously annoying after a while.

 
I'm in the same boat. I've owned too many amazing sounding and very comfortable headphones to go back to something that only has one of the two. I'm still a big fan of the Audeze sound, though.
 

I will say, the vegan pads are the nicest I've felt of any headphone, even the headband fits better than many.

 
The vegan pads are definitely a step up from the leather comfort-wise. I'm not sure whether it's the flexibility of the cloth or the possibility that Audeze adds extra padding to the vegan headbands but they feel much more plush and deal with the weight better than the leather does.
 

How can you reduce weight and not sacrifice sound? Magnets, housing, and a stiff chassis to reduce resonance cannot be compromised. Are we audiophiles, or casual listeners with expensive tastes? What is the target of Audeze?

 
Engineering. Even if we completely ignore the planar driver, Audeze headphones still have a lot of areas where they can shed weight. Do they really need solid aluminum rings? Aluminum is still pretty heavy and while it is decently rigid, you can find materials that are more rigid and lighter. The carbon fiber the Prototype Z is using is a good example. Another example is the Leona plastic the HD800's use on their driver basket and headband. It's light, as hard as titanium, and has very good resonance damping properties (and certainly ring far less than aluminum does). Another example is the 1-2mm steel plate on the outside of the driver, which could be replaced by rigid stainless steel mesh like what is found in many other headphones (like Hifiman planars and the HD800). Looking at the driver, it may be worth running tests to see whether the Fazor elements are worth the added weight. In his review, Tyll mentioned that the differences are subtle, and it certainly was a controversial upgrade among the community (at least for the LCD-2, I can't speak for the LCD-3). The fazor element raised the weight of the LCD-2 by about 110g, or exactly 1/3 the weight of an entire HD800.
 
Yes, space age plastics, carbon fiber, and thinner meshes don't feel as "premium" as things like steel, aluminum, and wood. However, I'll actually echo your question. Are we audiophiles or casual listeners with expensive tastes? If different materials can provide potentially better performance as well as reduced weight (for longer listening sessions without comfort distractions) by sacrificing the "quality feel", I personally think we should be pursuing that.
 
Now, weight reduction isn't the only thing that goes into the comfort of a headphone. Design also plays a part, especially headband design. A headband should minimize pressure felt on the head regardless of weight. At the moment, the Audeze headband has stitched "bumps" as well as a wide spread which unfortunately leads to areas of high pressure on the head because of a lower than average contact area on the head. One thing that's nice about the Prototype Z's headband is that it's a suspension style without bumps, which should substantially increase the contact area between the headband and the user's head which should help minimize pressure and enhance comfort.
 
I always thought it was a shame that Audeze's awesome sounding headphones were being dragged down by things like weight and comfort issues, and I'm really glad to see Audeze is looking into fixing these problems.

 

[groovyd]

Audeze, one more thing if you are indeed listening and making an amp to go along with them, please make it a tube amp (obviously) with atleast 4 watts and 2 single ended outputs so I can connect both my Z and my T1 at the same time.  

 

[jodgey4]

   
I don't think there is a real correlation between weight of headphones and sound quality. Also, for double vs side sided magnets, there are pros and cons to both methods....
 
I agree there shouldn't be any compromise to the sound, but not addressing comfort issues is just lazy engineering.

The Abyss-1266 is one sided, indeed, but one-sided magnets increase even-order distortion. Audeze I'm sure has looked into it, but double sided magnets offer more control when done correctly. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see them come out with a one-sided design soon.

  Engineering. Even if we completely ignore the planar driver, Audeze headphones still have a lot of areas where they can shed weight. Do they really need solid aluminum rings? Aluminum is still pretty heavy and while it is decently rigid, you can find materials that are more rigid and lighter. The carbon fiber the Prototype Z is using is a good example.

I wonder how much weight could be saved by replacing the outer metal grills and wood cups with plastic alternatives (carbon fiber I don't think everyone has the wallet for) - I don't think it could be much (though, obviously many would be much happier). Perhaos I'm wrong. Most weight seems to be internal. Also, as Audeze's goal seems to be sound quality, it makes sense for them to have added the Fazor, despite the weight.
 
The headband doesn't bother me much, but I don't think there are any good arguments against a suspension style headband. It's just not my personal priority to have that be fixed ASAP.

 

[SilverEars]

  The Abyss-12667 is one sided, indeed, but one-sided magnets increase second order distortion. 

Looks like 4th harmonic is slightly greater than 2nd according to Tyll's tone test with 500Hz.  What I'm curious about is why the HE-6 is so in-efficient.  I would bet on the strength of the magnets that is requiring more power to the diaphragm for ease of movement in the magnetic field.  

 

[groovyd]

carbon fiber isn't really cost-wise much more expensive then well finished wood or other materials.  perhaps plastic ok but...