[ultrabike]

   
I'm just saying based on my own ears and I have heard what is out there. The DT880 and HD650 aren't in the same league.
 
HE-560 is like having an improved DT880 across the board. Imaging, control, lack of edges, better impact in mids and bass.. The reason I compare is because the stock HE-560 leans towards bright like the DT880 but is technically superior. don't get me wrong the DT880 is a great headphone and it gets really close to neutral but it doesn't have the same control as planars in the same price range like the HE-4 or 400i.

 
Based on my own ears an HD650 is superior to an AP, AD, LCD-2, and HE-400 in a lot of departments except bass. An HE-400 does bass really well for a relatively affordable price, but mids are not that awesome. An LCD-2 has remarkable extension in the low frequency, but don't really like their treble. AP and AD comparisons here are sort of unfair given they are closed and have to contend with issues open headphones do not. 
 
Haven't heard the HE-560 for a sufficient amount of time to claim it's an improved DT880, but I don't think they are all that similar.
 
As far as the T1, IMO a DT880 is superior and cheaper. Closest thing to a T1 is proly a DT990 actually, and I hated the DT990s.
 
Many planars lack control in the mids.
 
BTW, an Orpheus and the Stax Omegas are older than a T1, an AD, an AP, an HE-400i, an HE-560... You feel newer, more flagshipish is bettar?
 
+++
 
BTW, good issue free AP and AD are pretty good cans IMO. I know Dan would like all folks to say they are the bestest. They are his babies. I can say that while I like the Focal Pros better in terms of sound, the ADP/AD are pretty decent and much more comfortable.

 

[wahsmoh]

   
Based on my own ears an HD650 is superior to an AP, AD, LCD-2, and HE-400 in a lot of departments except bass. An HE-400 does bass really well for a relatively affordable price, but mids are not that awesome. An LCD-2 has remarkable extension in the low frequency, but don't really like their treble. AP and AD comparisons here are sort of unfair given they are closed and have to contend with issues open headphones do not. 
 
Haven't heard the HE-560 for a sufficient amount of time to claim it's an improved DT880, but I don't think they are all that similar.
 
As far as the T1, IMO a DT880 is superior and cheaper. Closest thing to a T1 is proly a DT990 actually, and I hated the DT990s.
 
Many planars lack control in the mids.
 
BTW, an Orpheus and the Stax Omegas are older than a T1, an AD, an AP, an HE-560. You feel newer, more flagshipish is bettar?

I don't think newer flagships are any better than older flagships but for one it is nearly impossible to own an Orpheus, let alone hear one. Two, there are many people on Head-fi who think the LCD-3F sounds way better than the Stax Omegas or Orpheus. Since you already stated that you prefer the HD650 over the LCD2 then clearly you have your reasons why you enjoy dynamics more.
 
I take back some of my reservations about the DT880 and the mids. This is the second time I have heard the DT880 since acquiring the Theta Progeny DAC which has enhanced the bass and mids of my Alpha Dog. The DT880 mids have more speed and attack than the Alpha Dogs but don't have the same impact or imaging cues that I am hearing with the AD. The AD has more "plankton" as Purrin likes to call the fine micro and macrodetails that separate the soundstage. I hear these macro and microdetails only with the finest setups like SR009, LCD3F, HD800(depends), modded HE560, have yet to hear it with HD650 or DT880. So how can I be hearing fine macrodetails much clearly when they are getting lost in the DT880??

 

[PacoTaco]

   
Based on my own ears an HD650 is superior to an AP, AD, LCD-2, and HE-400 in a lot of departments except bass. An HE-400 does bass really well for a relatively affordable price, but mids are not that awesome. An LCD-2 has remarkable extension in the low frequency, but don't really like their treble. AP and AD comparisons here are sort of unfair given they are closed and have to contend with issues open headphones do not. 
 
Haven't heard the HE-560 for a sufficient amount of time to claim it's an improved DT880, but I don't think they are all that similar.
 
As far as the T1, IMO a DT880 is superior and cheaper. Closest thing to a T1 is proly a DT990 actually, and I hated the DT990s.
 
Many planars lack control in the mids.

I honestly have to disagree with you on everything you said (quite literally.) The T1 is a slightly bassier, more controlled and mid-heavy DT880. It is basically a continuation of the DT880's sound, but less soulless. The T90 is the DT990's upgrade, and the T70 is the bastardization of the DT770.
 
Also, the HE-400 (well, maybe HiFiman's until lately) are the only planars I can think of that have poor mid-control besides MAYBE the AP's mid-distortion I heard when I owned it. The LCD 2, LCD 3, HE400i...ect seem to be either linear bass and mids, mid-heavy/forward, or bass heavy with poor control of the highs (I have honestly only heard one planar with a smooth, controlled high-end, and it was a T50 mod.)
 
Also, you can't compare super-expensive electro-statics to current, non-electro-static flagships. The HE560 isn't a flagship regardless, it just happened to the higher price of the two headphones released so far (and, to be honest, I think it tries being a planar HD800 for my liking...the HE400i is much more enjoyable, but it is basically a more comfortable HE500.)

 

[ultrabike]

  I honestly have to disagree with you on everything you said (quite literally.) The T1 is a slightly bassier, more controlled and mid-heavy DT880. It is basically a continuation of the DT880's sound, but less soulless. The T90 is the DT990's upgrade, and the T70 is the bastardization of the DT770.
 
Also, the HE-400 (well, maybe HiFiman's until lately) are the only planars I can think of that have poor mid-control besides MAYBE the AP's mid-distortion I heard when I owned it. The LCD 2, LCD 3, HE400i...ect seem to be either linear bass and mids, mid-heavy/forward, or bass heavy with poor control of the highs (I have honestly only heard one planar with a smooth, controlled high-end, and it was a T50 mod.)

 
I have not heard the T90 and T70, but the T1 was more of a DT990 than a DT880 IMO. The T1 is a bright can.
 
The DT770 is another pretty bright can. Requires quite a fair amount of modding to sound pleasant. Best I've heard were severely modded by Bill-P, which completely destroyed another custom pair floating around at the Schiit table in a recent meet. So if the T70 sounds like that, then I rather avoid it.
 
As far as planars. I agree not all lack control in the mids. But that tends to be the problem area along with treble control as you said.
 
AD and ADP have, IMO, difficulty in the treble area due to them being closed, and in the mids due to drive limitations.

 

[ultrabike]

  I don't think newer flagships are any better than older flagships but for one it is nearly impossible to own an Orpheus, let alone hear one. Two, there are many people on Head-fi who think the LCD-3F sounds way better than the Stax Omegas or Orpheus. Since you already stated that you prefer the HD650 over the LCD2 then clearly you have your reasons why you enjoy dynamics more.
 
I take back some of my reservations about the DT880 and the mids. This is the second time I have heard the DT880 since acquiring the Theta Progeny DAC which has enhanced the bass and mids of my Alpha Dog. The DT880 mids have more speed and attack than the Alpha Dogs but don't have the same impact or imaging cues that I am hearing with the AD. The AD has more "plankton" as Purrin likes to call the fine micro and macrodetails that separate the soundstage. I hear these macro and microdetails only with the finest setups like SR009, LCD3F, HD800(depends), modded HE560, have yet to hear it with HD650 or DT880. So how can I be hearing fine macrodetails much clearly when they are getting lost in the DT880??

 
I heard an Orpheus. It's pretty good. Perhaps a more refined HD650. As far as LCD-3F > than Stax Omegas/Orpheus? TBH I prefer the balance of an HD600/650 to most electrostatics. If we are talking about resolution, I would have to spend some time with the LCD-3F to form my own opinion about them. In the resolution department stats are hard to beat, but IMO not in the balance and tone department (depends I guess who you ask).
 
As far as me preferring HD650 over an LCD2, well I just like it more. Don't really care if its a dynamic, a planar, or a stat actually.
 
Also, to me the AD does not have plankton (like an SR009, HD800 and an HD650). But it's got pretty good shrimp.

 

[wahsmoh]

 
AD pulverized the DT880 at imaging this track. I can't seem to think the HD650 would fair much better since I have heard and compared it to the DT880 before. Anyone familiar with Nujabes, forget about dynamics conveying hip-hop properly.. try the AD or AP

 

[ultrabike]

That's a little bit bright (and edgy) song dude. It's got some decent quality bass. Best guess is you are better off not using the Beyers with that. Agree an AD and an HD650 would be more enjoyable with this. Particularly the AD which would be able to exploit bass resolution and relax the treble (to some extent since the AD is not that tilted).

 

[PacoTaco]

   
I have not heard the T90 and T70, but the T1 was more of a DT990 than a DT880 IMO. The T1 is a bright can.
 
The DT770 is another pretty bright can. Requires quite a fair amount of modding to sound pleasant. Best I've heard were severely modded by Bill-P, which completely destroyed another custom pair floating around at the Schiit table in a recent meet. So if the T70 sounds like that, then I rather avoid it.
 
As far as planars. I agree not all lack control in the mids. But that tends to be the problem area along with treble control as you said.
 
AD and ADP have, IMO, difficulty in the treble area due to them being closed, and in the mids due to drive limitations.

 
Depends on the age of the T1. A newer one has a slightly more tamed treble. It's still bright as hell, but the mids are more of a focus.
 
The T70 sounds like someone stuck the entirity of treble energy from the all the beyerdynamic headphones and Audio Technicas into one closed back and makes grinding nails on a chalk board a very pleasurable experience compared to listening to those.
 
The difficulty in the treble isn't really a closed-back thing, especially in this price range. The AD had issues because it was made to be too bright at first, but it was quickly revised to be a hell of a lot darker (and smoother as a result.) The lack of energy though, which most of the MrSpeakers headphones have issues with, was a lot more apparent and made the headphone sound subdued and boring.
 
The Alpha Prime, being incredibly similar to the Mad Dog but with a larger treble spike and more linear bass, suffers more from being a new take on the driver instead of a driver limitation (as the kneaded driver does wonders for the bass, but the mids suffer for it. Especially since the upper-mid range is already mostly sucked out.) I've heard other mods that got a forward, well controlled mid-range right, and one that eliminated both the odd 10 kHz spike and reached way deeper than I thought possible with this headphone. It all just depends on what you do with the driver.
 
I find closed planars have a lot easier time being closed and actually having a soundstage (especially if the cups are wood or 3D printed) than dynamic headphones, whom have had to cheat a bit to get to that same point (like the TH900's open ring around the cup.)

 

[ultrabike]

You should take a listen on those Focals. My only problem with those is that they were tight as hell. Painfully so.
 
Agree the Fostex driver is difficult. This may be compounded if there is quite a bit of driver to driver variance. Dan likely has to do a lot of driver matching and individual fine tuning.

 

[ultrabike]

Try this song instead wahsmoh:


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7ZiO_kaf5U[/VIDEO]



This one is not too bad for mids. Some cans sound wonkier than others with this:



[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P51LunEV3Sk[/VIDEO]



Throwing this one too, just cuz I like it:



[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ2EQpRq-G8[/VIDEO]

 

[craigp]

Wish I had the time to look through 1500 posts.

 
It wasn't a criticism.  I just remembered Dan posting the guide in this thread and had some questions at the time that Dan answered.  I therefore found it out for you and posted so you can avoid reading all 1500 posts.
 
You're welcome.  

 

[dusk]

It wasn't a criticism.  I just remembered Dan posting the guide in this thread and had some questions at the time that Dan answered.  I therefore found it out for you and posted so you can avoid reading all 1500 posts.

You're welcome.  

Ha! And rereading what I wrote, I sounded a bit snarky, so, my apologies!

 

[wahsmoh]

  That's a little bit bright (and edgy) song dude. It's got some decent quality bass. Best guess is you are better off not using the Beyers with that. Agree an AD and an HD650 would be more enjoyable with this. Particularly the AD which would be able to exploit bass resolution and relax the treble (to some extent since the AD is not that tilted).

It is slightly edgy and bright and that is possibly why the DT880 struggles, but I found it also lacking in detail; maybe the AD is more intimate and because it is closed I am not losing precious details to my room?? I am listening to Metaphorical Music on CD so I'm sure it sounds a bit better than Youtube quality.
 
For example, in the song I just listed.. the point I noticed the DT880 was lacking was at 1:36.. the little cymbals flicks at that point were not as detailed. Also I compared the Youtube version to the FLAC version I have and it sounds severely compressed in soundstage and quality.

 

[ultrabike]

Yes. Youtube has it's limitations depending on many factors. The quality of the music recording is a big factor. That said, many times bad recordings can become more revealing than good ones. Something that sounds edgy will sound bareable through some cans, and completely unbareable in some others. I'm not as familiar with the DT880s as I am with the HD600s and HD650s. I'm more familiar with the DT990s (and prefer to forget them). I've heard the DT880s though and thought they were not bad at all.

Based on technical data, the DT880 might on average roll off a little at 500 Hz relative to the AD which starts to roll off a little around 2 kHz. That said the ADs tend to develop some losses around 3 to 4 kHz and recover above 5 kHz remaining somewhat balanced after that. The DT880 get a little bright relatively speaking in the 5 to 10 kHz region. So you can match data with experience in that the DT880 might still be a little bright with the sample song you provided compared to an AD. The loss in the mids developing sooner than with the ADs together with a more balanced lower treble might correlate to your experience with issues with cymbal detail.

That said, of all the Beyers, the DT880 is proly the best one to my ears. My ears were not in pain as with most of the other Beyers, but they were still a little bright though. The DT880 might gain on the ADs in terms of high frequency extension and distortion which affects resolution. However, I actually prefer the tone of the ADs (the latest ones given the many versions and in the absense of issues which are not uncommon with these cans).

I wouldn't worry to much about open cans loosing details to the room, unless what you mean by that is lack of isolation and ability to remove ambient noise. If blocking out outside distractions is a concern, then definitively a closed can such as the ADs is an asset.

In most of these things, I guess you pick the cans that work best with the music that moves you. It may be that you got a set of well matched, lower distortion AD drivers there, and that the tone they provide is what you are looking for.

 

[TMRaven]

Whoa!  Ultrabike's one post went from 10+ likes down to 5!
 
I too think the T1 is too colored to be considered a league above the DT880 or even the 650.  Also, planars have their strengths and weaknesses just like dynamics do-- they're not inherently better than dynamics.
 
On the topic of distortion, I didn't hear too much midrange distortion with the Mad Dogs and HE-400 (both having measurably lots of midrange distortion), but if it's one thing distortion in the midrange does do, it takes away from scalability of the headphones.  I found that out first hand.  Distortion in the bass is easily audible to me, and it's one thing open planars have a distinct advantage on compared to open dynamics-- their bass remains clean down low, whereas most open dynamics get too tubby.  Closed dynamics however don't struggle with this problem if designed right.